Single pass chilling vs. Recirculating w/ Therminator

[wizardofza]

Peeps-

I was wondering how most of the Therminator users here chill? Do you chill on one pass with the 'Wort Out' on the Therminator going right to the carboy?

Or do you recirculate while chilling with the 'Wort Out' going back to your BK?

I attempted my first whirlpool while using my Therminator and I was originally recirculating but it was disrupting my hop cone that was formed by the whirlpool. That's when it occurred to me that I should just chill using a single pass.

I can't believe it took me this long to figure this out.

But I've seen people recirculating using a Therminator and I'm wondering if there's any positives/negatives in doing this?

 

[wyzazz]

Recirculating allows you to get the entire volume of wort down to temps faster, however time-wise it's faster to just chill in one single pass. If I drag out my pump I recirculate, if not I chill in one pass, if my hose is frozen up I do a no-chill brew.

 

[wizardofza]

What's the benefit of getting the entire volume down to temps as opposed to just chilling in a single pass right to the fermenter?

I'm just confused as to why anyone *wouldn't* want to do single pass chilling.

 

[wyzazz]

Less of your wort is exposed to the "Dangerous" temp range if you bring the entire volume down faster vs. single pass chilling. FWIW, I've not noticed a difference in my brews either way.

 

[pjj2ba]

What's the benefit of getting the entire volume down to temps as opposed to just chilling in a single pass right to the fermenter?

I'm just confused as to why anyone *wouldn't* want to do single pass chilling.

Rapid chilling is better at preserving hop aroma. If you added a bunch of late addition hops, the longer the wort is hot, the more aroma you lose.

 

[Bobby_M]

The problem with single pass comes when your coolant water is too warm. The usual reaction to warm coolant is to run the wort through slower and then the wort is sitting hot for a while in the kettle. I'd rather run the wort full bore to the fermenter and do whatever it takes to get the coolant cold enough to deal with that. Usually it means pumping icewater.

 

[lamarguy]

I'm just confused as to why anyone *wouldn't* want to do single pass chilling.

Some folks are overly concerned about DMS formation above the 140F threshold. Commercial breweries chill in a single pass and numerous studies have shown standing hot wort is not a problem, within reason. For example, I wouldn't recommend letting hot wort stand for longer than 30 minutes after knockout.

My recommendation - chill in a single pass.

 

[thegreatgumbino]

The issue not being discussed yet is filtering out the cold break, which recirc will accomplish while single pass will not. Any real world experience with cold break in the primary for 3 weeks vs. no cold break?

 

[wizardofza]

Yeah, single is definitely the way to go. I was just wondering if I was missing something for those that do recirculate. But it sounds like a setup issue - not having the means to chill in a single pass - not necessarily a preference.

I'm definitely sticking with single pass. I have no qualms with adding a few bags of ice in the mid-summer just to get to pitching temps.

It still amazes me that it took me almost 6 months to figure this out. Live and learn I suppose.

 

[wizardofza]

The issue not being discussed yet is filtering out the cold break, which recirc will accomplish while single pass will not. Any real world experience with cold break in the primary for 3 weeks vs. no cold break?

Hence the whirpool prior to chilling.

 

[wyzazz]

Hence the whirpool prior to chilling.

Ummm, no... ...COLD break is formed while chilling.

 

[wizardofza]

Bah, right. My bad.

 

[lamarguy]

Any real world experience with cold break in the primary for 3 weeks vs. no cold break?

The majority of breweries around the world leave the most or all of the cold break in the fermenter. It's easy enough to allow the cold break to settle in a conical and dump some of it out, though.

From Cold Trub: Implications for Finished Beer, and Methods of Removal:

Opinions vary as to the exact effects of removing cold trub. The way cold trub removal affects beer depends on yeast strain, the number of yeast generations used, the method and amount of removal, and the overall brewery characteristics.

It is widely believed that removing all cold trub not only has no benefit, but actually might slow fermentation and harm the finished beer, reportedly giving it an onion-like flavor. Stroh Brewing Co. reported slower fermentation, higher acetate ester levels, and lower yeast growth and viability after removing all cold trub from test batches (6). Further experiments showed another effect of the complete elimination of trub: the absence of nucleation sites during fermentation resulted in a supersaturation of carbon dioxide in the wort; high levels dissolved carbon dioxide inhibit fermentation. Stroh's work revealed the importance of having at least some wort solids present to act as carbon dioxide nucleation sites.

Removing at least some cold trub, however, has been shown to improve yeast viability and the quality of finished beers (3). Studies performed in Germany (where wort and beer are all-malt) have shown that partial removal of cold trub is beneficial to the stability of packaged beer. Flotation accomplishes this by at least partially removing proteins, polyphenols, carbohydrates and heavy metals, such as copper ions and iron complexes, which can catalyze oxidation reactions (7). Taste tests have also shown a preference for beers that were brewed with yeast harvested from beer from which trub had been removed by flotation.

Yeast growth and fermentation in high-gravity worts may benefit from leaving cold trub in the wort, which will lower the carbon dioxide in the fermenting wort, thus repressing the carbon dioxide's inhibitory effect on fermentation.

The cost of extra equipment and labor and the increased risk of contamination are valid arguments for not removing cold trub.

 

[thegreatgumbino]

Hence the whirpool prior to chilling.

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted your post. I took it you were recirc'ing through the therminator/pump to create the whirlpool. Effectively, cooling small amounts of wort through the plate chiller and recirc'ing it back into the BK.

 

[Irrenarzt]

I recirc and my beer is yummy

 

[Douglefish]

I recirc and my beer is yummy

When you recirc, how are you keeping hop material out of the plate chiller?

 

[samc]

When you recirc, how are you keeping hop material out of the plate chiller?

The same way you keep it out on the first pass.

False bottom or paint strainer bag or bazooka screen, etc.

 

[Douglefish]

The same way you keep it out on the first pass.

False bottom or paint strainer bag or bazooka screen, etc.

Has anyone just tried whirlpooling their wort for a couple of minutes manually before starting the recirc? Any idea if this would work?

 

[wizardofza]

Has anyone just tried whirlpooling their wort for a couple of minutes manually before starting the recirc? Any idea if this would work?

I tried it, and the Therminator kept getting clogged. That's what made me add a whirlpool outlet to my BK. This weekend I whirpooled for about 15 minutes, let it sit for about 15, then chilled right to fermenter. It worked great.

Granted, I only had 3.5 ounces of hops in that recipe, but I've had clogging issues recirculating with that small amount in the past.

 

[Irrenarzt]

When you recirc, how are you keeping hop material out of the plate chiller?

Like this:

Just run the hose into the top of the steel tube

 

[lamarguy]

Or, giant tea balls.

 

[Munsoned]

Or, giant tea balls.

I bought one of those from World Market a few months ago and tried it on my last batch. My pellet hops dissolved completely and went right through the screen. I'm hoping leaf hops would fare better.

So, for pellet hops, I'm going back to my old system of just using women's knee high panty hose from the dollar store. Put the hops in, tie in a knot, and toss it into the kettle. I'm sure my utilization is probably less than some other methods mentioned on here, but I haven't noticed any significant difference personally.

 

[Douglefish]

Like this:

Just run the hose into the top of the steel tube

So you gravity feed into the top and then run the pump into the chiller after it's gone through the strainer?

What are you using for the strainer, and how big is that pot you are running it into?

Thanks, this looks like my solution for sure!!!

 

[Irrenarzt]

No I pump using 2 march pumps. Gravity is for the poor and people who like to stand on ladders ;-) I also recirc chilled ice water using my HLT through the bottom circuit of the Therminator. Works great and I've gotten down to pitch temps in 6 minutes once but usually a couple minutes more for 5 gallon batches, about double for 10 gallon ones.

This is a Brutus type single tier and that's a 20 gallon Boilermaker. In all my experimentation, this is the most effective method for keeping hop material out of the Therminator.

 

[Desert_Sky]

One pass for me. My ground water is 60 and I can take 21 gallons from boil to 70 and then right into the conical. I have a false bottom that keeps the whole hops out and then a nice whirlpool keeps out everything else.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Sweet rig, Looks kind of like the Sabco one but cleaner.

 

[Douglefish]

No I pump using 2 march pumps. Gravity is for the poor and people who like to stand on ladders ;-) I also recirc chilled ice water using my HLT through the bottom circuit of the Therminator. Works great and I've gotten down to pitch temps in 6 minutes once but usually a couple minutes more for 5 gallon batches, about double for 10 gallon ones.

This is a Brutus type single tier and that's a 20 gallon Boilermaker. In all my experimentation, this is the most effective method for keeping hop material out of the Therminator.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand your process. I'm assuming that you have two pumps since it's a single tier. After the boil, you have all the wort in your boil kettle and then start to recirculate through your strainer, then through your therminator, and back through a whirlpool port in your boil kettle right?

Which kettle are you showing in the picture with the strainer, the MLT?

Do you pump the wort through the strainer into your MLT, and then use another pump to push through your Therminator and Whirlpool?

I'm debating doing either this or closed circuit cooling like the Pol.

 

[Irrenarzt]

I recirc wort from the BK through the top circuit on the Therminator and back into the BK. I also do the same with the HLT but with ice water through the bottom circuit of the Therminator. Just like Lonnies plans show. I guess you haven't seen those.

That's the BK shown above. Why would you transfer wort back to your MT after boiling it?

 

[Desert_Sky]

I figure once summer comes around, I'll find someone's used immersion and use that as a prechiller for the water input on the Therminator. Water coming out midsummer will probably be in the 70s so sit the immersion chiller in a bucket of ice and watch those temps drop fast

 

[Irrenarzt]

hell, just roll your own for 25 bucks.

 

[Desert_Sky]

hell, just roll your own for 25 bucks.

But I do roll my own......

Oh you meant the immersion chiller. I may do that, but sometimes you find a smokin deal on one on craigslist

 

[Irrenarzt]

LOL. I just rolled a 25 turn 1/4" copper coil for my randall. Beer from the randall comes out to the coil then to a picnic tap. You immerse the coil in a cooler of ice water and voila, no foaming. I'm a big proponent of rolling your own...

 

[Douglefish]

No I pump using 2 march pumps. Gravity is for the poor and people who like to stand on ladders ;-) I also recirc chilled ice water using my HLT through the bottom circuit of the Therminator. Works great and I've gotten down to pitch temps in 6 minutes once but usually a couple minutes more for 5 gallon batches, about double for 10 gallon ones.

This is a Brutus type single tier and that's a 20 gallon Boilermaker. In all my experimentation, this is the most effective method for keeping hop material out of the Therminator.

I apologize, I think I'm just not getting it. The steel tube that is above your boil kettle is used to strain hops once you start the recirc right? You aren't using it as a hop bag are you?

So you go from the boil kettle (with loose hops and trub) -> Pump -> Therminator -> back into the top of the strainer.

If that is the case don't you clog your plate chiller? There is nothing to keep the hops from going through the chiller right?

 

[Irrenarzt]

The steel tube holds the hop bag in place for the boil and the subsequent chill recirc. The hops are sequestered in the hop bag for both the boil and the chill. I do not have loose hops in my boil anymore. People complain about hop utilization suffering with hop bags but my beers are as hoppy as they were before I started doing this so I'd say I'm doing just fine. This is all pellet. If I want to add leaf (which I also do) I use a false bottom and that separates the leaf hops from the pickup tube.

Getting it now?

 

[cdematteis]

I have a question...why do you recirculate back through the hop bag rather than just back into the kettle? Do you get more hop utilization or increased aroma by recirculating through the hop bag?

 

[Demon]

I have a question...why do you recirculate back through the hop bag rather than just back into the kettle? Do you get more hop utilization or increased aroma by recirculating through the hop bag?

As an extra filtration step. If any particles got through on the first pass they'll get caught before the second.