Single decoction double check

[pudland]

Hi,

I,ve decided to try this recipe, the extract, but changed the grain bill a bit.
http://byo.com/mead/item/3030-pilsner-urquell-clone


My grain bill:
4 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 46.8 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.8 %
8.0 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 5.8 %
4.0 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.9 %

I increased the Pilsner Malt and totally dropped the DME.
I see for the all-grain it says to do a single decoction. I read that, back in the day, this was done do to the quality of the grain and to add a different "character" to the beer.

This is my first PM. Usually I "steep" the grains and wash(batch sparge) but the grain bill has been under 2 lbs, mainly specialty grain.

I have a 5 gallon igloo with a false bottom i made. I will preheat the cooler prior to the mash.

Beersmith tells me to:
Protein Rest: Add 11.50 qt of 126.2* for a step temp of 122* for 35 minutes.
Saacharification: Decoct 4.67 qt of mash and boil for 45 minutes.
Mash Out: Heat to 168* over 10 minutes.
Fly Sparge: with 2.27 gal of water @ 168*.

QUESTION 1: The fly sparge is what does the mash out step, correct?
QUESTION 2: Aside from adding "character", is a single step decoction over doing it(unnecessary time added for this brew)?
QUESTION 3: Would a Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge be all I need to properly mash this grain bill?

Thanks!
Adam

 

[GrogNerd]

I would read THIS before you do a decoction according to Beersmith

Kai's info is invaluable

my palate isn't able to detect the difference between an infusion and a decoction, but others can. And it's something I think every homebrewer should try at least once

 

[pudland]

GrogNerd,
I did see the video on YouTube but would rather read, thanks for the link to the page!

Thoughts on Question 1 and Question 3?

Anyone else also?

Thanks!

 

[kh54s10]

QUESTION 1: The fly sparge is what does the mash out step, correct?
QUESTION 2: Aside from adding "character", is a single step decoction over doing it(unnecessary time added for this brew)?
QUESTION 3: Would a Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge be all I need to properly mash this grain bill?

Thanks!
Adam

#1 NO. You raise the temperature of the grain to 170 to stop the conversion, then fly sparge. Without a mashout conversion continues during the sparge which often not desired.
#2 I believe this process started when malts were not well modified. I did one so far and it increased my efficiency quite a bit. My 5% alcohol brew went at least to 6%
#3 If I was doing this one I would use Single infusion LIGHT BODY, Batch sparge.

If you are not worried about the time, I would give the decoction method a go, if for no other reason than the experience of doing one.

 

[pudland]

Thanks for the in depth response!

#1 NO. You raise the temperature of the grain to 170 to stop the conversion, then fly sparge. Without a mashout conversion continues during the sparge which often not desired.

Ok, Thanks! Sub question: How do i raise the temp for mash out if 'm using an igloo and BS2 doesn't say to add any water to bring the temp up?

#2 I believe this process started when malts were not well modified. I did one so far and it increased my efficiency quite a bit. My 5% alcohol brew went at least to 6%

That's what I had read also. I'm not really looking to boost the ABV for this batch. This will be the first recipe using LME for me. It comes in 3.3 lb container so to use it all I cut the DME and up'd the grain to keep the ABV medium while lightening the body(I hope).

#3 If I was doing this one I would use Single infusion LIGHT BODY, Batch sparge.

If you are not worried about the time, I would give the decoction method a go, if for no other reason than the experience of doing one.

BS2 Single infusion LIGHT BODY, Batch sparge
Mash In Add 7.56 qt of water at 157.6 F, Step temp: 148.0 F, Step Time:75 min
Batch sparge with 2 steps (1.00gal, 2.26gal) of 168.0 F water

Does that Step Temp look low or is it just me?
For the sparge steps, do I open the drain while sparging with 1 gal, close the drain, get the 2.26 and then open the drain while sparging with that amount?
Do I vorlof 1st to set the grain bed, open the drain then start batch sparging? I thought I read that the grain should stay covered until the wort starts to run clear.

Thanks!

 

[kh54s10]

Thanks for the in depth response!



Ok, Thanks! Sub question: How do i raise the temp for mash out if 'm using an igloo and BS2 doesn't say to add any water to bring the temp up?

If you are going to do a batch sparge don't even worry about it. A mashout is not necessary since you will be going to the boil rather quickly.




That's what I had read also. I'm not really looking to boost the ABV for this batch. This will be the first recipe using LME for me. It comes in 3.3 lb container so to use it all I cut the DME and up'd the grain to keep the ABV medium while lightening the body(I hope).

Are you doing a partial mash or extract brew? In partial mash you need base grains with specialty grains and mash at about 148 to 154, depending on style, for 60 minutes. If it is extract and you are just steeping the grains they will not add very much to your alcohol level.




BS2 Single infusion LIGHT BODY, Batch sparge
Mash In Add 7.56 qt of water at 157.6 F, Step temp: 148.0 F, Step Time:75 min
Batch sparge with 2 steps (1.00gal, 2.26gal) of 168.0 F water

Does that Step Temp look low or is it just me?
For the sparge steps, do I open the drain while sparging with 1 gal, close the drain, get the 2.26 and then open the drain while sparging with that amount?
Do I vorlof 1st to set the grain bed, open the drain then start batch sparging? I thought I read that the grain should stay covered until the wort starts to run clear.

Thanks!

Vorlauf to set the grain bed, drain the tun, measure the amount of wort you have collected. Then you can add what you need to make your preboil volume, vorlauf again and drain. I usually split the sparge in 2 steps since it makes it a little easier to collect the right amount.

The temperatures shown are what I would expect.

Though your posts I am now uncertain what type of brewing you are doing.
1) With extract there is no mash. Just steeping.

2) With partial mash you are mashing base and specialty grains and using extract to get the rest of the sugars for your OG.

3)With all grain you would normally not have any extract.

 

[pudland]

Though your posts I am now uncertain what type of brewing you are doing.
1) With extract there is no mash. Just steeping.

2) With partial mash you are mashing base and specialty grains and using extract to get the rest of the sugars for your OG.

3)With all grain you would normally not have any extract.

Sorry for the confusion, I attached a print out of the BS2 recipe.

I'm looking at this as a Partial Mash.
4 lbs of Pilsner base grain with 1lb 4 oz of specialty.

So the steps would be:
1) Mash In for 60-75 min.

2) Vorlof: slowly drain an amount into a container until big particulates no longer come out, slowly pour the liquid back into the igloo.

3) Drain all the liquid into the brew pot. measure amount.

4) Batch Sparge Step 1: carefully pour 1 gal 168*F over the grains and let it drain into brew pot.

5) Measure amount in the brew pot.

6) Batch Sparge Step 2: carefully pour 2.5 gal 168*F over the grains and let it drain into brew pot.

5) Measure amount in the brew pot.

6) Measure gravity. BS2 estimates "End of Running Gravity = 1.010" and says "Generally you should stop sparging when you reach 1.010 for the runnings."

7) Add top off water to make 4.27 gal boil vol

8) Begin boil and add extract with 15 minutes remaining in the boil.

I guess the only REAL concern is that I dont have enough extract to make the desired OG. I should probably have some DME on hand just in case.

Thanks!

View attachment PUC Design.pdf

 

[kh54s10]

Sorry for the confusion, I attached a print out of the BS2 recipe.

I'm looking at this as a Partial Mash.
4 lbs of Pilsner base grain with 1lb 4 oz of specialty.

So the steps would be:
1) Mash In for 60-75 min.

2) Vorlof: slowly drain an amount into a container until big particulates no longer come out, slowly pour the liquid back into the igloo.

3) Drain all the liquid into the brew pot. measure amount.

4) Batch Sparge Step 1: carefully pour 1 gal 168*F over the grains and let it drain into brew pot.

5) Measure amount in the brew pot.

6) Batch Sparge Step 2: carefully pour 2.5 gal 168*F over the grains and let it drain into brew pot.

5) Measure amount in the brew pot.

6) Measure gravity. BS2 estimates "End of Running Gravity = 1.010" and says "Generally you should stop sparging when you reach 1.010 for the runnings."

7) Add top off water to make 4.27 gal boil vol

8) Begin boil and add extract with 15 minutes remaining in the boil.

I guess the only REAL concern is that I dont have enough extract to make the desired OG. I should probably have some DME on hand just in case.

Thanks!

You will need to vorlauf at each draining. End of runnings gravity and to stop at a particular gravity generally refers to fly sparging. You don't want to keep adding liquid when the gravity is too low.

I guess it doesn't really matter too much how much you add in each of 2 sparges. I usually add a larger amount for the first sparge, measure and add a smaller amount for the second sparge.

4.27 gallons preboil? Is this a 3 gallon recipe? Do you know your boil off rate. I do 5 gallon batches and boil off about 2 gallons in an hour so I start with a little over 7 gallons to end up with a little over 5 gallons.

It has been a while since I have done a partial mash, I got the gravity I wanted from the recipe, but it never hurts to have some DME on hand. I also use it for making yeast starters when using liquid yeasts.

 

[pudland]

You will need to vorlauf at each draining. End of runnings gravity and to stop at a particular gravity generally refers to fly sparging. You don't want to keep adding liquid when the gravity is too low.

Sounds like a plan.

I guess it doesn't really matter too much how much you add in each of 2 sparges. I usually add a larger amount for the first sparge, measure and add a smaller amount for the second sparge.

I was thinking the same thing. Either way I may have to top off the boil kettle which BS2 takes into account anyway I think.

4.27 gallons preboil? Is this a 3 gallon recipe? Do you know your boil off rate. I do 5 gallon batches and boil off about 2 gallons in an hour so I start with a little over 7 gallons to end up with a little over 5 gallons.

I make 5 gal batches. I have my equipment set up as a 5 gal brew pot. My original brew pot is actually 6 gal. I topped off after the beer cooled before I put it in the fermenter. This has worked well for me since I started.

The IGLOO Mash Tun is 5 gal.

I did just get an 8 gal brew pot but didn't change my equipment profile in BS2 yet. I'll toy around with the equipment profile today.


Thanks!

UPDATE:

Attached is the revised recipe with the different equipment profile utilizing an 8 gal boil pot and 5 gal mash tun.

View attachment Pilsner Big Pot.pdf

 

[Crucial-BBQ]

Don't know if you are still considering the decoction or not, but if you are...

...I would avoid decocting the cara-pils; just add it to the mash after you pull the decoction.

But, to be frank, if I were doing this with the decoction I would avoid the cara-pils altogether.

And, if you want to lighten the body, once again, ditch the cara-pils, and mash the grains at a lower temp; say 149˚ F for up to 90 minutes.

I have been home brewing for 17 years now and have always batched sparged since going all-grain how-ever many years ago that was. You can certainly add more water to Batch Sparge Step 1, but it is not necessary. It is also not necessary for either spargings to be at 168˚ F despite what anyone will tell you. With my second runnings, I get the same results (excellent, mind you) with water temps ranging from "warm" to "hot".

According to the link in the OP, 3.3# of LME should be enough to reach the desired gravities but that all depends on your mash efficiency. I'd have 1 - 2# LME on hand just in case.

Also, I'm a huge fan of decoctions and step mashing in general; Pilsner Urquell goes through a triple decoction, not a single, and to do a proper "Urquell" mash would take 4 - 6 hours depending on equipment/set-up.

 

[pudland]

Don't know if you are still considering the decoction or not, but if you are...

Ive decided to go with a batch sparge for this one.

And, if you want to lighten the body, once again, ditch the cara-pils, and mash the grains at a lower temp; say 149˚ F for up to 90 minutes.

I fiddled with the Mash Steps since my last post...
148*F Mash Temp and sparge water in the 150-157 range.

According to the link in the OP, 3.3# of LME should be enough to reach the desired gravities but that all depends on your mash efficiency. I'd have 1 - 2# LME on hand just in case.

Do you mean an extra 1-2# on top of the 3.3#?
I may top off with DME if needed, thats what I have extra on hand.

Also, I'm a huge fan of decoctions and step mashing in general; Pilsner Urquell goes through a triple decoction, not a single, and to do a proper "Urquell" mash would take 4 - 6 hours depending on equipment/set-up.

Yeah, I've noticed I'm not going to stick with the "Urquell" clone. Just haven't changed the name!

Attached is the recipe update.

View attachment Pilsner Big Pot.pdf