Hey all. Brewing an American Wheat Ale right now. I’m one week into fermentation and am thinking I will leave it in primary for the entire fermentation then cold crash when complete. I have always transferred to secondary but think I will try to eliminate a step and prevent any oxygen intrusion. What think you all??
Should I rack to secondary
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Your beer will thank you for it!
With very few exceptions, secondaries are not needed, in many cases even detrimental to beer. Outdated (kit) instructions are so hard to weed out.
Agreed. For at least a month, and probably way longer, staying in the primary is no problem.
Just use them as primary fermenters.Now, what to do with my carboys???
If they're smaller than 6 or 6.5 gallons, just adjust your batch size so leave at least a gallon of headspace.
Or brew the full batch, and ferment the extra wort in another container. Then combine when packaging.
How many do you have and what size?
They can be used for sours or beer that actually benefit from aging, such as bigger beers.
Let me add, many newer and revised kit instruction now mention the use of a secondary as "optional."
That's very deceiving, as it's being presented as an option, while it really should be discouraged. Especially for novices, which most kits are tailored to.
Even a seemingly simple task as racking (transferring) beer to a keg or bottling bucket needs some attention and dexterity, to prevent introducing air (oxygen) into your beer, and leaving as much trub behind as possible. I always say: train yourself first with a bucket of water or Starsan.
Upstate12866
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I only primary but I get lots of yeast in my beers. So each time I sort of regret not using a secondary, especially when i give beer to friends.
After a few transfers with a poorly sealed racking cane (which allowed bubbles of air through the hose along with the beer, ao every drop got super oxygenated) I am less concerned about oxidation than ever. I did 4 lagers in a row like that and they are fine. So my position is secondary if you are not lazy and want extra clear beer, but no other good reason.
After a few transfers with a poorly sealed racking cane (which allowed bubbles of air through the hose along with the beer, ao every drop got super oxygenated) I am less concerned about oxidation than ever. I did 4 lagers in a row like that and they are fine. So my position is secondary if you are not lazy and want extra clear beer, but no other good reason.
Is that because the yeast is still suspended? Lager yeasts are notoriously slow precipitators, those beers need to get "lagered" (stored cold, near freezing is best) for some time (2-6 weeks or longer) to adequately clear. That's where a secondary could help, although many homebrewers "lager" successfully in the primary.
Or do you transfer yeast from the bottom of the fermenter? If that's the case, you need to keep the racking cane higher up, and slowly lower as the beer level recedes, and as soon as yeast and trub starts getting sucked up, stop the transfer.
Upstate12866
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Sorry, I just was thinking of my latest brews. But this is typical for me even with cider and mead yeasts, US05 and 04 English yeast, hefe, etc. (though English gives the best results among them, occasionally perfect clarity when used for cider).
I put my dip tube halfway down, clench my teeth in fear, and pump to start the siphon. This agitates things for sure. Then when the liquid goes down, I lower to just above the yeast cake and tilt the bucket about 5 or 10 degrees. I then let the beer settle in the bottling bucket for 10 min and bottle.
The results I consistently get are fine for me, but feature a noticeable, thick yeast cake I need to warn my friends about. If I pour from 22oz or 1 liter bottles, the second pour will be cloudy as a vape lounge.
A secondary would resolve this nicely, but hasn't been worth it to me lately. Someone with greater care and different gear can get better results, but I think it's hard to get crystal clarity off a primary without wasting much beer.
I put my dip tube halfway down, clench my teeth in fear, and pump to start the siphon. This agitates things for sure. Then when the liquid goes down, I lower to just above the yeast cake and tilt the bucket about 5 or 10 degrees. I then let the beer settle in the bottling bucket for 10 min and bottle.
The results I consistently get are fine for me, but feature a noticeable, thick yeast cake I need to warn my friends about. If I pour from 22oz or 1 liter bottles, the second pour will be cloudy as a vape lounge.
A secondary would resolve this nicely, but hasn't been worth it to me lately. Someone with greater care and different gear can get better results, but I think it's hard to get crystal clarity off a primary without wasting much beer.
Is the beer/cider/mead clear (or at least mostly clear/transparent) in the fermenter, before you start racking?
If so, there should not be much sediment from that in your bottles, 1/8" max.
But once the trub/yeast has settled in the bottle during conditioning/carbonation, no you can't tip the bottle back when pouring, it will agitate the trub back into suspension.If I pour from 22oz or 1 liter bottles, the second pour will be cloudy as a vape lounge.
You have to be a little more careful when pouring bottle conditioned beverages, no glugging. Pour gently, in a continuous stream, in one motion, don't tip back. When see sediment appearing in the neck of the bottle or toward the mouth, you're done pouring, tip it back. Done! There should not be more than 1/4" of beer trub mixture leftover.
With larger bottles as such, or when filling multiple glasses for present company, dispense the whole bottle over 2 or more glasses, bartender style, continuously pour slowly, while moving the bottle from one glass to the next. Again, never let it tip backward, or some will be getting a murky beer or the trub to drink.
D.B.Moody
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My experience is that using a secondary isn't a problem and it produces clearer beer. Of my last four brews, three were primary only, and they were less clear than the fourth. But hey were all different recipes and used a yeast that flocculates less than I usually use in those three recipes. To directly test my not using a secondary my next two batches will be identical beers, but only one will use a secondary. I want to know if I notice a difference. It is even possible that I've been drinking my brews using a secondary for so long (since 1994) that oxidation is part of the taste I want/expect.
I've been wondering that as well. Also started in the early 90's and I remember we'd consider that beers had what we called a "green" flavor and weren't really very good until they were bottled or kegged for a couple weeks. I think if I went back and had one of those beers now, I'd be thinking - "Dude, that green flavor is the hops and some day you'll want that." For us back then oxidation was a fancy name for rust and had no implications to beer at all.
Upstate12866
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I think the key is clarity or yeast in suspension vs. Sediment. I'm saying you can bottle clear beer from primary, but it is hard to do so without picking up sediment or wasting beer. But I would definitely encourage anybody to try--with more effort or better technique they can probably do better than me.
I would simply wager that if you are using cooking pots and bucket fermenters, you will probably get less sediment in your beer with a secondary. EDIT: if you can cold crash your primary, you may have much better luck than I have. Just as an example, if you don't mind sediment, there's no need to sit in primary for more than a week. It will settle and clear in the bottle into a slightly thicker layer of sediment anyway.
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NightFlight
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I have never done a secondary. My longest primary was an experimental 1gal cider I had started 02/11 and racked last night. It seems fine.
Don’t you get sediment from priming bottles? I gave that up early on and moved to kegging.
Instead of priming, you chill/age in the keg. Chuck the first half glass or so if you don’t like cloudy beer. It’s been a dream. I also keep carbonated water on tap!
My only issue was I have to redo my Keezer build. Getting the inside dimensions before you buy is such a PITA if not impossible during COVID. My current freezer fits my kegs in a W arrangement. I could fit my four kegs in a keezer half the size. Or ... six kegs in the same keezer footprint with an extra 1” of depth. *sigh* I could use six kegs...
Don’t you get sediment from priming bottles? I gave that up early on and moved to kegging.
Instead of priming, you chill/age in the keg. Chuck the first half glass or so if you don’t like cloudy beer. It’s been a dream. I also keep carbonated water on tap!
My only issue was I have to redo my Keezer build. Getting the inside dimensions before you buy is such a PITA if not impossible during COVID. My current freezer fits my kegs in a W arrangement. I could fit my four kegs in a keezer half the size. Or ... six kegs in the same keezer footprint with an extra 1” of depth. *sigh* I could use six kegs...
I've only done 3 secondaries with "regular" beer, my first 3 brews, 12-some years ago. Since then, primaries only.
Secondaries do have their use, such as in mixed fermentation sours, batch conditioning/aging, wines, meads, etc. IMO, it's optional with fruit beers, depending on what you're after.
I've never had a lot of trub (that includes precipitated yeast) transfer to the bottling bucket or kegs. I use one of those inverter tippies on the bottom of the racking cane. Start racking from the middle, then drop slowly as the surface level recedes. Tilt fermenter toward the end to keep the beer well deep, and stop transfer when trub starts to gets sucked up. Often, there's not even a pint of beer left after that.
Although I obtained a few auto-siphons with equipment purchases off Craigslist, I've always avoided using them, using a stainless racking cane instead. But auto-siphons should work just as fine, just don't stick it on all the way on the bottom as they seem to do in most (YouTube) videos. Start it in the middle, then lower slowly. And use one of those inverter tippies on it. A siphon clamp of some sort frees one hand.
Rehearse with a bucket of water or Starsan until you get the knack of it.
NightFlight
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Not to de-rail... but how do you start a siphoning without an auto siphon? I’ve been doing exactly the same as IslandLizard above. YouTube helps.
But I don’t get how you start the initial vacuum unless you want to use your lips and ... spoil the batch. Soak your lips in starsan? Lol
I really jest about the Sarsan... do not do that. Lol
But I don’t get how you start the initial vacuum unless you want to use your lips and ... spoil the batch. Soak your lips in starsan? Lol
I really jest about the Sarsan... do not do that. Lol
I’m still using my secondary fermenters and carboys, no matter what people say!
Yes, one must be careful not to ‘splash’ any time while transferring, but it’s not too difficult. Less mess is already a plus!
Yes, one must be careful not to ‘splash’ any time while transferring, but it’s not too difficult. Less mess is already a plus!
Upstate12866
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You can use a tool to separate your lips and the tool (a straw, etc) or fill the tube from the faucet so it's already loaded with water.
I think most autosiphons have the nub on the end to draw from above (mine does), and you are describing my process exactly...i recommend everyone give it a try in the name of simplicity, it won't hurt the beer, but it's easier in theory than practice is all.
- Clip the racking cane to the inside of fermenter, using a siphon clamp or so. Suspend so the bottom end is about midway between beer level and trub line.
- Fill your racking hose with Staran. Curling it up on the bottom of your Starsan bucket is easiest.
- Still under Starsan, plug up the end going into your bottling bucket, or put a clamp on it. Key is, the hose remains full.
- Pull the hose out of the bucket keeping the open end up. Again, tubing should remain full of Starsan.
- Connect hose to the top of your racking cane.
- When ready to rack, pull the plug off the bottom end or release the clamp. Let the Starsan run out into a spill container, that should start the siphon. When beer comes out, plug back up or tighten clamp quickly. Or hold your Starsaned finger on it.
- Transfer the end of the hose to your bottling bucket or keg and remove finger, plug, or clamp.
Before filling, the keg should be either "100% liquid pre-purged" using CO2 from a cylinder, or has been pre-purged with fermentation CO2.
Train yourself with a bucket of water or Starsan before using on beer. Once you get the knack of it it becomes second nature quickly.
If you're fermenting in carboys, use a carboy cap and start the siphon by sightly pressurizing the carboy through the side teat on the cap using air (blow in it) or CO2 from a cylinder. You only need a couple psi to start the siphon/transfer.
D.B.Moody
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I've been doing just that for decades. Both when transferring to secondary and to a bottling bucket. Back when I started, I'd rinse with whiskey, but I haven't done that in decades either. When I'm racking from a bucket, I don't use anything but the hose held by hand where I want it. I haven't lost batch yet. I don't sanitize anything; I just wash suff, though my bottles are run through the dishwasher.
This morning I brewed the first of those batches that will allow me to see if not using a secondary is any improvement in my rather casual, extract brewing and bottling. If you have aspirations of improving and going deeper into this hobby, you are probably better off listening to people like @IslandLizard than me. All I'm saying is that you don't have to make things real complicated, just don't start the siphom while you're eating an egg salad sandwich.
Upstate12866
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If yall partake in smoking you may be familiar with some hands positions that allow you to create a draw without touching lips to a cigarette.
Here's one that works: If you roll your hand into a loose fist like you are holding a stick, then put your mouth in the hole by your thumb and draw, you will create quite a bit of vacuum. You can hold a tube in your ring/little finger, draw from the thumb hole, and never touch your lips to the tube.
On second thought maybe I should be doing it this way already. Instead of pumping an autosiphon.
Here's one that works: If you roll your hand into a loose fist like you are holding a stick, then put your mouth in the hole by your thumb and draw, you will create quite a bit of vacuum. You can hold a tube in your ring/little finger, draw from the thumb hole, and never touch your lips to the tube.
On second thought maybe I should be doing it this way already. Instead of pumping an autosiphon.
NightFlight
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Sounds like work. I already have an auto-siphon, but it would be good to have the knowledge to start one without regardless. Eg, my auto-siphon doesn’t fit my little 1gal experiments. I have bottling buckets, but I found the auto-siphon easier.
Good on filling a keg through the liquid out post. I’ve just been putting the sanitized line down to the bottom and then purging when done. I imagine you could fill the keg with C02 by filling from the gas post wile releasing pressure from the liquid post. Then again the lid on the beer bottling bucket would be open to air anyhow. *shrug*. I have limited confidence in the gains of doing sealed transfers... *shrug*
Good on filling a keg through the liquid out post. I’ve just been putting the sanitized line down to the bottom and then purging when done. I imagine you could fill the keg with C02 by filling from the gas post wile releasing pressure from the liquid post. Then again the lid on the beer bottling bucket would be open to air anyhow. *shrug*. I have limited confidence in the gains of doing sealed transfers... *shrug*
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NightFlight
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I’ll try a ‘sealed’ transfer using gravity and the bottling bucket nozzle to the liquid post. Then just lift the bung and commence flow. There should be a cushion of CO2 above the beer in the bucket. I don’t have another bucket to test with water, but it should be straightforward enough.
Sure, it takes a couple minutes longer than 3 pumps with the auto-siphon. But you'll never pump air.
You can always use the center cane as a regular racking cane.
I use short acrylic (clear plastic) racking canes for siphoning from smaller fermenters, such as gallon jugs.
Using fermentation buckets sealed/closed/near-closed transfers are not easily implemented but it can be done. Other type of fermenters are designed to make that easier. It's a process, like many others, that help in making better beer. Oxidation is a real issue, especially with hoppier beers that show the problem early on. But it applies to all beer.
There are quite a few threads on closed or semi-closed transfers, and different approaches. I'm working on perfecting closed transfers from buckets using a racking cane. It helps that regular Propak bucket lids seal very well on standard 6.5 gallon brew buckets.
That's not a good method. It would take a tremendous amount of (bottled) CO2 to bring the O2 level in the keg down to acceptable levels. But you could use fermentation CO2 in a similar fashion (CO2 going in through the liquid-out post) to achieve that. Many of us do.
100% liquid pre-purging uses merely 6-11 gallons of CO2 gas (depending how frugal you want to be). Usually less than the amount of CO2 needed to serve a whole keg of beer.
Agreed, it's futile when transferring into an open bottling bucket.
But you could do a (near) closed transfer to a 100% liquid pre-purged keg, then bottle from the keg. Flush the bottles with CO2 or N2, before filling.
Brews and Blues
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Before my autosiphon, i tried this method... watched youtube videos over and over. I eventually got it but the very next day i bought an autosiphon because it was so frustrating.
I have no doubt that after a few brews, i could have gotten it down. But there is no way that what i did that day would have been considered "sanitized" or not exposed to oxygen.
That's why I always tell brewers to train themselves with a bucket of water (or Starsan) before applying it to beer. I think that should be paragraph #one in the racking/transfer chapter.
Not saying you can't do it with an auto-siphon without exposing your beer to (excessive) air (21% oxygen being the real bandit here). It also takes some practice.
I grew up in homebrewing with a (stainless steel) racking cane, before I ever saw an auto siphon. Once I saw the gurgling in an auto siphon, I subconsciously knew it was not an option for me.
Brews and Blues
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Yeah that is the entire reason i want to start fermenting in my serving keg. No chance of oxidation. The less i have to fumble around with the beer, the better.
NightFlight
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So in summary, you don’t need a secondary unless you need to clarify or age.
DuncB
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I'm moisturising but still aging, can you clarify ?
Where did you draw that conclusion from?
NSMikeD
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Fwiw if you have a plastic fermenting bucket, it’s very easy to add a spigot and do away with the siphon. Some spigots even have a bent tube on the inside so you can rotate the intake just above the trub. I never bothered with that as I had a factored the volume loss into my brew calculations and the spigot was placed at that spot.
If you need a bottling bucket to prime the beer do the same (add a spigot). Spigot in the brew pot and using mesh hop bags will help reduce sediment. Irish moss or Whirlpck tabs. And I let my wort settle for about 30 minutes after chilling before transferring to the fermenter.
a good cold crash helps clear beer.
If you need a bottling bucket to prime the beer do the same (add a spigot). Spigot in the brew pot and using mesh hop bags will help reduce sediment. Irish moss or Whirlpck tabs. And I let my wort settle for about 30 minutes after chilling before transferring to the fermenter.
a good cold crash helps clear beer.
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D.B.Moody
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The whiskey rinse I meant was sipping some whiskey before starting the siphon with my mouth. I don't know if it really sanitized my lips that much, but it's a fun way yo start the day.
But, as I said, I haven't actually done that in decadesWait? Do you mean to imply some people spit it out? You need to sanitize all the way throughThe whiskey rinse I meant was sipping some whiskey before starting the siphon with my mouth. I don't know if it really sanitized my lips that much, but it's a fun way yo start the day.
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