Seriously? 56% efficiency? Seriously?

[gustavohmsilva]

Hi guys, thanks to all for reading this...

I having a lot of problems with my home brewing setup and since the Brazilian communities like to do "picuinhas" (idiot discussions) sometimes, instead of discussing real and constructive propositions. I'm looking for help from all of you. I admire this forum for a long time and I believe this may be the best place to post this...

Well... Saturday I've brew a Brown ale with Malte (a brazilian herb) and hit the lowest efficiency of my life! I usually have 60%, 65% AT THE MOST, but this time I had a 56% efficiency, which made me completely angry. I really need a solution to this problem or I'm gonna be making out of profile beers forever. So I'm gonna try to post as much information I can about my brew processe below. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

1 - Grain Mill: I've use a brazilian mill called MaltBite. He stuck from time to time and I have to be adjusting the mill at least 5 times during this process:

Of course, this piss me off, but it is hard to import the awesome grain mills you guys have in the US and AU. I think this may be one of the reasons, but I'll still think this can't be the only problem that's causing such a low efficiency!

2 - Since Electricity here is costly as hell, I use Natural Gas. The pipeline comes to my house so I avoid a lot of problems buying propane and stuff. I've automated the system with a PID, a pilot and a solenoid valve. I heat 8 gallons of water to 113ºF, add all the grains, mix it for 5 minutes to make sure it is all wet and then the PID take's care of all... Direct fire heats to 131ºF, hold this temp for 10 minutes, than heats to 150ºF and hold it for 60 minutes, than heat to 172ºF and the process is finished. During all this time, there's a chugger pump recirculating the wort and I Use a bazooka at the bottom of the kettle.

Below is the only picture I have of my bazooka. It was taken when I was pasteurizing Mead, disregard the wort in the pic

3 - After the process is over, I use the chugger to transfer the wort to another pot for boiling for 60 minutes.
PS: Disregard the pre-boil HSA in this PIC, I'm now filling the boil kettle from below to avoid HSA. The process continues the same beside of that.

4 - The boil is usually 60 minutes, hop additions change from recipe to recipe obviously. I use hop bags and most of the time don't even need to make the whirlpool because there's no sediment. This process is very straight forward. After that I use a Plate chiller (10 plates, sanitised, pretty standard) to cool the wort down to 68ºF like the picture:

At this last point I take the gravity readings. Making all the points calculations as recommended at the beer smith website I've faced the hard truth:

Total efficiency grains Points: 98
100% efficiency = 1.098 OG
75% efficiency (standard for home brewing) = 1.072
My efficiency (565) = 1.054

The recipe itself was very straightforward...
11 pounds of pale ale (castle malting)
2.20 pounds of arome malt (castle malting)
0.264 pounds of chocolat malt (BESTMALZ)
0.98 ounces (28 grams) of simcoe hops


Can you guys give me tips about my brewing process and my ****ty efficiency problem?

thanks a million guys!

 

[Homercidal]

Personally, if I had to mess with the mill every batch, I'd throw that thing away and get something that works better, regardless of the efficiency.

But since your process seems normal, and since grain crush USUALLY makes the biggest difference in efficiency, I think that it may also be the big problem with your efficiency.

Other than that, I don't see what else could be wrong, unless your calculations are off, but you seems to have a very good handle on things, so really your crush looks to be the big thing here.

I don't know much about those mills and I can't clearly see how it works, but it looks as though it uses a single wheel and a stationary plate and crushes the grain between them.

 

[oljimmy]

Agreed that crush is a major factor. However, another one is grain quality. As I understand it, if the grain is old or improperly stored, it can lose some of the enzymes which are necessary for conversion of starches into sugars. Where are you getting the grain from, and how is it stored? Can you be sure that it's fresh?

 

[Hello]

I'd love to see your crush. Looking at the mash there, your crush looks like it could be the issue. I could be wrong, the pic is hard to see.

 

[gustavohmsilva]

hi Homercidal, thanks for your reply. As always, the US community ROCKS!

About the mill. One wheel rotates with a drill machine, the other one is a wheel that rotates too, but not because of the drill machine... but because of the grains, that then breaking, for the wheel to rotate...

I was thinking that maybe this efficiency problem could be also because I don't heat extra water and throw it to make a sparge. I recirculate the wort continuously, but I don't actually heat and throw any additional clean water to "wash out" the grains at the end of the pre-boil process.

 

[gustavohmsilva]

Agreed that crush is a major factor. However, another one is grain quality. As I understand it, if the grain is old or improperly stored, it can lose some of the enzymes which are necessary for conversion of starches into sugars. Where are you getting the grain from, and how is it stored? Can you be sure that it's fresh?

oljimmy, When I've started brewing I was getting awful grains, but since capitalism is not always a bad thing, because of this awful only store in the city, they opened two more and the game definitely move up. Now (including this awful last brew i narrated) the grains are more than perfect!

 

[gustavohmsilva]

Hello, I'll try to record a video of the next time I'll use it. It works ok for a little time, but out of nowhere he just stop "pulling" the grains and I have to star to open the regulators until they start falling again and close them fast to crush the grains again.

 

[beersk]

Agreed on grain crush. Water plays a role too. What do you do with your water? If the pH gets way out of range, that will affect the efficiency. But efficiency that low, I would expect that the crush is the root cause of the problem.

 

[Homercidal]

Ah, yes, grain type can play a part in efficiency. For your calculations, you should only list grains that contribute to gravity.

Also, yes, sparging will dramatically increase efficiency. I assumed you were comparing against your previous batches and they were handled the same way. You could easily add points by sparging. It's really easy to do a batch sparge if you had another vessel to heat sparge water in. But even a full volume mash should get you more than 50% or so. Since the entire gravity is more diluted, so is the sugar that's left behind.

I noticed you are using 8 gallons for every recipe. If you used 8 gallons all the time, then your calculations might be off because there is going to be more or less grain to hold more or less residual sugars, and the amount that you collect would be more or less as well. If you aren't already doing it, you should calculate your water volume needs for each weight of grain bill. THis will give you a more accurate expectation for gravity and pre-boil volume which you can base your efficiency from.

 

[gustavohmsilva]

yeah beersk, i'm pretty sure he is the one... I'm watching a few videos and the rolls are VERY different from the american mills I'm seeing here... The rolls of my mill are horizontal lines only, but the american mill's I'm seeing have loads of lines on different directions.

 

[gustavohmsilva]

Homercidal, I'm thinking about changing my brew protocol and do exactly this:

1 - Try a different mill (a better one)
2 - Split the water I use to make a Sparge at mash out

But about a sparge, what do you guys think? I would prefere to make a batch sparge. Pull all the wort of the kettle, drop the rest of the water and mix it with the grains. How long do you guys think that would be an "ok" time to hold this mix of sparge water and wet grains before mixing with the first wort I've removed?

 

[Homercidal]

I've used this method for almost all of my brews. The only time I haven't is when I've BIAB. In that case I dunk my grains in another vessel and then combined the collected wort.

As far as how long to let it rest, it doesn't matter. I usually give it a couple of minutes because I have something else going on and I let the big pieces settle a bit. But it's not important to wait. I'm usually just putting the Boil Kettle on the burner and firing it up, maybe grab a sip of beer, check hops additions etc. Lautering right away is fine too.

 

[gustavohmsilva]

Just checked if theres any shop in Brazil who sell Monter Mills... 750 Dollars here... and the shipping is not covered... OMG...

 

[LandoLincoln]

Three things that can really mess up your mash efficiency:

1) Your grain crush
2) The pH of the mash being way off
3) Your bazooka screen is only pulling from the center of the mash tun leaving sugars on the edges left behind

 

[nuhvadah]

gustavohmsilva,
I have a cousin in Argentina who has that mill. His rollers are knurled, which from your picture makes it slightly different from yours. He only has problems with it when he mills using his 3/8 inch rechargeable drill. It seems to work better with more power. When he borrows a larger drill (1/2 inch chuck) from work, things get much better. The drill change really helped his crush without changing the mill. He now gets an average 80% mash efficiency.

I think he's a knowledgeable guy, but he does weird things; like substitute his bittering hops for Yerba Maté.

 

[Homercidal]

Just checked if theres any shop in Brazil who sell Monter Mills... 750 Dollars here... and the shipping is not covered... OMG...

OUCH!

FYI I built my own for pretty much free. Scrap metal from the machine shop where i work and a few hours on a CNC mill. It's smaller and slower than the store-bought machines, but that's fine for me.

I ended up installing a pair of gears after it proved to slip on the grain. Now it pulls grain in just fine. I can mill 6 lbs without adding an extension to the hopper.

 

[gustavohmsilva]

gustavohmsilva,
I have a cousin in Argentina who has that mill. His rollers are knurled, which from your picture makes it slightly different from yours. He only has problems with it when he mills using his 3/8 inch rechargeable drill. It seems to work better with more power. When he borrows a larger drill (1/2 inch chuck) from work, things get much better. The drill change really helped his crush without changing the mill. He now gets an average 80% mash efficiency.

I think he's a knowledgeable guy, but he does weird things; like substitute his bittering hops for Yerba Maté.

nuhvadah, just like Brasil, Argentina is kind of blooming in home brewing and craft breweries... If only the crisis there wasn't that ****tup I would move there (Brasil is not grate either).

Did you said he has a Maltbite or a similar one? the wheels from mine are not knurled, just horizontal lines. I use a 550w drill machine, believe me, she can handle it

PS: MAN, you have to try this herb, gonna be the best grut ale you'll taste in your life! Bitter as F*CK... a dessert spoon with it is equivalent to chew chinook pellets...

 

[doug293cz]

Homercidal, I'm thinking about changing my brew protocol and do exactly this:

1 - Try a different mill (a better one)
2 - Split the water I use to make a Sparge at mash out

But about a sparge, what do you guys think? I would prefere to make a batch sparge. Pull all the wort of the kettle, drop the rest of the water and mix it with the grains. How long do you guys think that would be an "ok" time to hold this mix of sparge water and wet grains before mixing with the first wort I've removed?

Doing a simple batch sparge will help significantly with your efficiency. With a no sparge, full volume mash, your maximum lauter efficiency for the grain bill you listed is about 70%. If you mashed with 5 gal of water, drained fully, and then batched sparged with an additional 3 gal of water your maximum lauter efficiency could be about 78% - 79%. If your starch to sugar conversion is complete at the end of your mash, it doesn't matter if your sparge water is hot or cold. But, since your conversion doesn't appear to be complete, hot water (about 170˚F) would probably get you a little more conversion, and increase your efficiency a little.

A batch sparge consists of the following steps:

1. At the end of mash, stir well, vorlauf, and then completely drain the mash tun of all liquid. Drain as fast as you can without getting a stuck mash.
2. Add the sparge water and stir for about 5 minutes. Since you are having conversion issues, letting the mash sit for 10 minutes might help. Then stir one more time, vorlauf, and drain completely.

Assuming that your lauter efficiency was 70% and your mash efficiency was 56%, then your conversion efficiency would be 0.56 / 0.70 = 0.80 => 80%. 80% is a pretty low conversion efficiency. Homebrewers can and should routinely exceed 95% conversion efficiency, and even 99% is achievable.

Conversion efficiency is where crush, time, temperature, and pH come into play. Coarser crushes take longer to convert than finer crushes (has to do with diffusion distances). To get better conversion you can crush finer and/or mash for a longer time. Mashes at lower temperatures take longer to complete than mashes at higher temperatures. A mash in the upper 140's might take 25% - 50% longer to complete than a mash in the mid 150's. Your mash temp is low mid range, so extending mash time might be beneficial. pH only comes into play if you are outside the range of about 5.2 - 5.7. Outside of that range, the saccharification reactions slow down, so longer times are needed for completion.

There are two ways to monitor for saccharification completion. The simplest is to test some of the mash wort and grain with an iodine solution. Place some of the wort and grain on a white surface and add a couple of drops of iodine solution. You need to crush the grain particles some more in order to expose any remaining starch. If it turns black, there is still starch present. If it turns dark red, there is little to no starch, but still lots of long chain (unfermentable) sugars. If it does not change color, then conversion is complete. The other way to monitor mash completion is to measure the wort specific gravity during the mash. This is most easily accomplished with a refractometer. When the mash SG stops rising, conversion is complete.

Another thing you can do to maximize efficiency is eliminate wort volume losses. Anytime you leave behind (in MLT, BK, plumbing, etc.) or lose (spill, boil over, etc.) sweet wort, your efficiency goes down. Boiling loses only water, not sugar, so the amount of boil off does not affect efficiency.

As for you mill, do you measure the mill gap space? If so, what is it? As another poster suggested, it's quite likely that the mill jams are due to insufficient drill torque. You want to use a drill speed of 200 - 300 rpm for crushing, and many variable speed 3/8" drills (especially battery powered) do not have sufficient torque at low speeds to reliably turn the mill. A 1/2" drill is usually better for mill use.

Brew on

 

[nuhvadah]

nuhvadah, just like Brasil, Argentina is kind of blooming in home brewing and craft breweries... If only the crisis there wasn't that ****tup I would move there (Brasil is not grate either).

Did you said he has a Maltbite or a similar one? the wheels from mine are not knurled, just horizontal lines. I use a 550w drill machine, believe me, she can handle it

PS: MAN, you have to try this herb, gonna be the best grut ale you'll taste in your life! Bitter as F*CK... a dessert spoon with it is equivalent to chew chinook pellets...

gustavohmsilva-
Yes, his is a Maltbite, although his rollers are knurled, not lines.

Just a suggestion if you want knurls: Take yours apart and bring the rollers to a metal fabricator. It'd be a very simple job to turn the lines into knurls... Probably a $10 job. I bet if you bring some home-brew with you, you could get it done for free ;-)

We have Maté here in the states, imported from Paraguay. I grew up drinking it and still do to this day. Since what I get here is not the greatest quality(it's not fresh), I've always been hesitant to use it in my brew.

I've got quite a lot of family in B.A. and can say one thing for certain: Crisis is everywhere. Question is, which crisis would you rather deal with?

 

[gustavohmsilva]

gustavohmsilva-
Yes, his is a Maltbite, although his rollers are knurled, not lines.

Just a suggestion if you want knurls: Take yours apart and bring the rollers to a metal fabricator. It'd be a very simple job to turn the lines into knurls... Probably a $10 job. I bet if you bring some home-brew with you, you could get it done for free ;-)

We have Maté here in the states, imported from Paraguay. I grew up drinking it and still do to this day. Since what I get here is not the greatest quality(it's not fresh), I've always been hesitant to use it in my brew.

I've got quite a lot of family in B.A. and can say one thing for certain: Crisis is everywhere. Question is, which crisis would you rather deal with?

I didn't know that the maltbite was working in other LATAM countries, that's nice. here we usually have chinese mills or the US imported ones. They have to get their sh*t together through.

I'll try to fine someone to do this. thanks for the tip.

Try to make a brown ale with the toasted maté and a gruit ale with green maté. It is awesome.

 

[Hello]

Just checked if theres any shop in Brazil who sell Monter Mills... 750 Dollars here... and the shipping is not covered... OMG...

Yikes. Can you get a corona mill?

 

[gustavohmsilva]

Yikes. Can you get a corona mill?

Never find it before. here the only alternative to corona is this ****ty chinese piece of crap: