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Teufelhunde

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I see that the general advice is not to bother with a secondary fermentor, and have been given this same advice at a semi-local homebrew store, but some of the recipe kit suppliers are specifying a secondary in the recipe, even on a simple pale ale.......are they just out of date?

YMMV

Lon
 
I see that the general advice is not to bother with a secondary fermentor, and have been given this same advice at a semi-local homebrew store, but some of the recipe kit suppliers are specifying a secondary in the recipe, even on a simple pale ale.......are they just out of date?

YMMV

Lon
Yes, they are out of date. Kit instructions are notorious for containing bad information. This is unfortunate.

Brew on :mug:
 
Kits get us started, discussion moves us forward.

With regard to transfers to secondary, it's generally a better practice to not not do it. Over in the American Homebrewers Association forums, there was a series called "Ask the Experts". The Q&A with John Palmer [link here] appears to be the basis for the one-liner that most people mention regarding whether or not to use secondary.

Starting out, there is a list of "top priorities" that one needs to master. **How to Brew** (4e) lists them as:
  1. Sanitation
  2. Fermentation temperature control
  3. Proper yeast management
  4. Boiling technique
  5. Recipe
Lack of temperature control is likely to have a big impact on your first batch. Frequently, in new brewer topics like this, someone will ask what you are doing for fermentation temperature control.
 
Yes, out of date. While I think the general presumption is that there was a historical reason for doing a secondary--in earlier days of home brewing the yeast wasn't as good, nor the hops, and so getting the beer away from these things seemed like a good idea--that's not the case today.

Further, I think there's an economic reason for the kit instructions: it sells more secondary fermenters. I bought my first brewing kit from Northern Brewer, and it included an extract ingredients kit. The extract kit instructions specified the use of a secondary fermenter, which just naturally had been included in the equipment kit.

BTW, most experienced brewers will tell you that controlling fermentation temperature was a huge leap forward in their brewing, so think on how you might do that. Yeast is exothermic, meaning it produces heat while working, which can increase the temp of the wort 5-10 degrees F above what the ambient room temperature indicates. Yeast that ferments too warm will produce off-flavors you don't want in most beers. (Farmhouse ales and Saisons *do* intentionally ferment warm to capture specific flavors from that strain of yeast, and there's a type of yeast called Kveik yeast that can ferment very warm without throwing off-flavors, but that's pretty much the exception.)

So if your room temp is 69 you might think that's ok, but once the yeast get going, the fermenting wort temp might be as high as 79, which you do not want.

How do you control ferm temp? You can spend hundreds and even into the thousands to do that, but there are ways that are cheap too. You can use a "swamp cooler" arrangement to keep temps down. Get a turkey pan from the dollar store; put about 2" of water in it, set the fermenter in the water, then drape a t-shirt over the fermenter so it hangs in the water. The t-shirt will wick up water which evaporates and helps cool the fermenter.

In some areas where it's naturally warmer (southern United States, for instance), ambient is already too warm--say 75 or 80 degrees. In those areas, home brewers will put frozen water bottles in the pan as well to help keep things cool, swapping them out every 12 hours or so.

Below is a pic of one I did. A good place for these is in a closet or basement where there is no light. You want the beer kept in the dark so you don't get light-struck beer from either sunlight or UV light.

swampcooler.jpg


BTW, a big reason for this post was to make @BrewnWKopperKat 's prediction come true. :)
 
I'm feeling expansive today, might as well extend the previous post.

If as a new brewer you decide you want to improve your processes, there are other ways to control ferm temps that involve more equipment and money than a simple swamp cooler (which, btw, usually works just fine). I remember as a new brewer asking myself how much money I wanted to commit to all this, so until I was sure I wanted to continue, a swamp cooler was it.

I'm the kind of guy who wants to improve processes--faster, better, more efficient, higher quality--so I began to look at other ways to control ferm temps.

The standard way is to use a refrigerator, a heat belt, and a temp controller to control fermentation temp. I lucked out in that I got a cheap refrigerator as part of some equipment a guy was selling. You can of course get them free, on craigslist, and so on.

The guy had an Inkbird controller so I didn't have to buy one; they're $35 on Amazon. I now have 5 of them. :)

All I needed was a heat belt. You can get them from about $13 to about $26. The heat belt warms up the fermenter when the time comes, and helps maintain ferm temps within a degree or so.

You set the refrigerator to where it will run all the time, plug that and the heat belt into the Inkbird, and attach the temp probe to the fermenter (I use a piece of foam to hold it against the side of the fermenter along w/ a bungee cord). When the fermenter gets warmer than your set point, the Inkbird turns on the refrigerator to cool. When it's too cool, the Inkbird turns on the heat mat to warm it.

You can also do this with a tall dorm-style refrigerator which is much more space-friendly. They have a small freezer compartment which some people bend down and out of the way; I never was comfortable trying that--kink a line and the refigerator is toast--so I used a stopper and piece of tubing instead of an airlock and ran the line out of the refrigerator to a blowoff jar.

You can also, if you have a lot of money to burn, look to glycol chillers. These are fairly common for those with stainless fermenters and temp control coils. It's possible to DIY a glycol chiller and there are several threads on HBT about that--I've done it myself, but also bought a dedicated Penguin glycol chiller. These DIY ones use anything from a window air conditioner to a dorm-style refrigerator to the freezer compartment on a larger refrigerator. Since a dedicated glycol chiller runs from about $700-1000, you can see why people would DIY it.

Here are a few pics showing these various options:

fermchambers.jpg fermchamber.jpg fermchamber2c.jpg minifermchamber.jpg ministoppertubing.jpg fermchamber2e.jpg penguin1.jpg
 
Lack of temperature control is likely to have a big impact on your first batch. Frequently, in new brewer topics like this, someone will ask what you are doing for fermentation temperature control.

I've got that one under control....The bucket is sitting in a mini-fridge with an external controller, rock solid at 65 degrees.....

Lon
 
So if your room temp is 69 you might think that's ok, but once the yeast get going, the fermenting wort temp might be as high as 79, which you do not want.

:)

I'm using and inkbird as well, and after reading this, turned it down to 63, as it is really starting to bubble this morning....hopefully, that should hold the temperature in the bucket to 68-73........

Lon
 
I'm using and inkbird as well, and after reading this, turned it down to 63, as it is really starting to bubble this morning....hopefully, that should hold the temperature in the bucket to 68-73........

Lon

The point of the inkbird is to hold the temp within about a degree of what you want. When the temp rises above the set point the Inkbird is supposed to turn on the refrigerator to counteract the exothermic effect of the yeast. So set it at the point you want.

The only other issue is where the temp probe is. It should be pressed against the side of the fermenter using a piece of foam, or styrofoam, or some people even use a towel folded over several times. This allows the probe to pick up the temp of the fermenting wort, not the air temp, and that's what you want to control--the wort temp.

Hold the insulation over the probe with a bungee cord, or string, or what have you. Note the pics above I posted that show how I hold the foam against the probe and fermenter.
 
Nice write up on fermentation temp. Another option I like for the location of the probe is to use a a thermowell in the fermentor stopper. Gets your temp reading very close to the wort itself. You can buy one for $12 on amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0763SFLLX/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_Q3ifEb1ZG55X3

They are made for carboys but you can just drill a bigger hole in the bucket lid if you use a bucket as I did here:

IMG_4574.JPG


Before anyone has a heart attack in the temp setting, this is a saison...
 
I think secondary is basically the time spent post krausen. It’s a way to move the beer off the trub and finish fermentation with less crap let in the bottom. Plus I think it allows for a much cleaner yeast harvest. If you don’t harvest it doesn’t do much for you then. Most of us skip the secondary transfer as it just gives bacteria an entry opportunity. Filtering your kettle trub in some manor provides the benefits of a secondary fermenter without the risks or extra bucket needed
 
Most of us skip the secondary transfer as it just gives bacteria an entry opportunity.

Personally, I don't transfer to secondary because I'm lazy (don't want to do the work to do the transfer) and I get good beer.

Personally, my "sanitation" practices are good enough to drive the "risk" of infection to effectively zero. Need proof? I bottle my beer.

As for oxygen ingress, I would need to do a "closed" transfer (using CO2) to drive the "risk" of oxidation to effectively zero.

There are a a number of people (including some of their forum administrators) over in /r/homebrewing and over in AHA forums that talk about their closed transfer techniques.

There also may be some people here who could talk about closed transfers as well.

Maybe one of more of them will stop by to help move the discussion forward.
 
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Personally, I don't transfer to secondary because I'm lazy (don't want to do the work to do the transfer) and I get good beer.

Personally, my "sanitation" practices are good enough to drive the "risk" of infection to effectively zero. Need proof? I bottle my beer.

As for oxygen ingress, I would need to do a "closed" transfer (using CO2) to drive the "risk" of oxidation to effectively zero.

There are a a number of people (including some of their forum administrators) over in /r/homebrewing and over in AHA forums that talk about their closed transfer techniques.

There also may be some people here who could talk about closed transfers as well.

Maybe one of more of them will stop by to help move the discussion forward.

There are all kinds of threads on here that discuss closed transfers. A search will reward those who are interested.
 
I have no doubt there are all kinds of search results that discuss closed transfers poorly. Human recommendations seems to be a good way identify the best and discard the rest.
 
I have no doubt there are all kinds of search results that discuss closed transfers poorly. Human recommendations seems to be a good way identify the best and discard the rest.

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could be: I'm referring to threads on homebrewtalk which, of course, involve human recommendations. :)

Here's how you find them; put this in the google search bar: site:homebrewtalk.com closed transfers

If you limit the result to the past year (just under the search bar in "search tools" is a time parameter), you get this link:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sit...mAhWZPM0KHS9HBtwQpwV6BAgMEB4&biw=1707&bih=838

which produces a few dozen results, including:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/are-closed-transfers-worth-the-extra-effort.663213/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/is-a-closed-transfer-really-necessary.667423/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ar-closed-transfer-from-bucket-to-keg.664638/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/big-mouth-bubbler-closed-transfer.661783/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ransfers-from-fermonster-to-corny-keg.664270/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ransfer-conical-to-keg-build-question.663662/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...conical-to-keg-using-a-spunding-valve.665438/
 
Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could be: I'm referring to threads on homebrewtalk which, of course, involve human recommendations. :)
The stats box at the bottom of the forums home page shows that there are currently 75 members and 164 bots online. It’s a crapshoot. :cool:
 
Human recommendations seems to be a good way identify the best and discard the rest.

Personally, I don't see how posting search results could be considered a "human recommendation". But whatever

reply #2, paraphrased, in one of those links
Only you can answer if you will perceive better beer for the extra effort

That being said, sometimes it's good to drag a foreign idea in from another forum (/r/homebrewing, Daily Q & A! - January 03, 2020)

Any tips, techniques or advice on how to reduce the risk of oxidation during primary, racking, or even secondary fermentation?
Low hanging fruit: (1) Skipping racking to a "secondary" vessel gets you 80% of the way there. (2) The other big thing is during the limited times you rack (once into bottling bucket or keg), rack under the rising beer, not down the side of the vessel where every ounce is mixing with air.

Beyond that, you're looking at closed transfers into CO-purged vessels, ideally pushing with CO2 (or using gravity in a closed loop so the CO2 circulates back). If you have a CO2 tank and regulator, you can look into or ask about those techniques.

Friendly. Concise. Actionable.

No trash-talking of the quality of kits. No trash-talking of the tasting abilities of individuals. No concerns for mentioning "secondary" fermentation. Just ...

Friendly. Concise. Actionable.

:mug:
 
Acknowledging the fact that different people have differing sensitivity to different flavors is in no way "trash talking" the tasting abilities of anyone.

Agreed completely. Some of brief discussions around the "brewing science" on taste perceptions (as mentioned in chapter 5 of the New IPA) have been quite positive. Over time, I've started to notice people talking about it without mentioning the source of the information - which is fine - as it's a good addition to the "conventional wisdom" that is often repeated.
 
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