Second batch, need help pinpointing the problem

[canonhead311]

I tried my first batch nearly 3 years ago and decided to give this another go now that I can work in a kitchen larger than most peoples 1/4 baths. I currently have a Ale Pail bucket kits, with a few minor upgrades doing extract batches. It's a Sweet Honey Brown Ale from Old West Supply in Colorado Springs. I was pretty meticulous about cleaning and sanitizing everything because I think that's what really messed up my first batch. (Btw this batch seems to have a similar off taste like the first one but it's so long ago I can't be sure). I boiled the water and cooked the wort on an electric stove top in a ~3gal steel pot (approx. 2.5gal batch).

OG 1.062
FG 1.011
ABV 6.9
WLP039 Yeast

It spent 9 days in the primary fermenter, then 12 days in a secondary. I bottled them and then they sat in my garage for 2 full months. About 1 1/2 months I had my wife put about 10 of them in the fridge.

So now here we are and the beer certainly is drinkable but I am having a hard time finishing them. I have been reading through this forum and trying to figure out how to describe the off flavor. To start with it it seems bland, I looked at the flavor wheel on this page. It doesn't have an off odor (really no odor) so looking at the taste side on the bottom side maybe its a bit stale? My wife tried it (granted she's not a drinker) but she said maybe a bit acidic...

I tried a sample of this batch before secondary and before bottling, it tasted the same, I was hoping carbing it and conditioning it would clear it up. I have a second batch sitting in the secondary (porter) tastes great when I moved it, I'm about to bottle it so we will see. I am a bit concerned about the water since I didn't do a whole batch boil. I have enough bottles now that I can bottle what I got and keep this batch. At this point I will probably let it sit for about 5 months since I will be leaving the country for a business trip in another month.

I just wanted to see what any of you all might have to say about what I got going on here so that maybe I can be more aware of something for future batches. Thanks everyone!

 

[Trox]

What temp did they sit in the fermentors at?

 

[johnsnownw]

It's either related to your ferm temperature, or water...would be my guess.

Just a helpful hint...many brews don't benefit from a secondary, so I'd skip them unless you plan to age or use non-hop related additions. This is especially true if you're trying to secondary 2.5 gallons in a 5+ gallon bucket.

 

[BrewWNC]

Was the kit old? Left unrefrigerated?

I would guess a bland taste could be old/improperly stored ingredients.

Kind of hard to narrow it down.

 

[canonhead311]

It was in my garage so while not exactly a controlled environment it stayed pretty constant around 70 degrees. I have read that the secondary isn't really necessary and there's more risk than gain so I plan on taking that step out in future batches.

 

[Trox]

70 Degrees is actually pretty high most ale yeast prefer to be in the low 60 range; fermentation is an exothermic reaction so if the outside is 70 the inside could be as high as 75-78.

 

[johnsnownw]

70 Degrees is actually pretty high most ale east prefer to be in the low 60 range; fermentation is an exothermic reaction so if the outside is 70 the inside could be as high as 75-78.

^ What he said ^

70° is the highest optimum temp for the yeast...and was likely much higher than that during active fermentation.

 

[CBMbrewer]

All the comments on the temps are very true. But, high fermentation temps would not cause "stale/bland" tasting beer. In fact the opposite would be true. I would look more at your ingredients.

 

[Jim_Holmes]

i have not yet ran my first batch but from what ive been reading, maybe oxidation when you transfered to secondary. or have i been understanding the reading ive been doing wrong that overexposure to qxygen can cause oxidation which could cause a stale taste.

 

[johnsnownw]

All the comments on the temps are very true. But, high fermentation temps would not cause "stale/bland" tasting beer. In fact the opposite would be true. I would look more at your ingredients.

It's difficult to diagnose based on subjective taste. For instance, his wife finds an acidic flavor, where he finds bland. I, too, agree that stale/bland is generally not associated with high ferm temps. Staleness/blandness can be associate with oxidation, but he is claiming that he tasted this when racking to secondary...9 days, in primary, isn't enough time for oxidation to occur.

I should think that ingredients might play a roll, but find it somewhat unusual that he'd have the exact same ingredient issue 3 years apart.

 

[Trox]

Yeah I'm wondering if the combination of too high fermentation temp and oxidation is causing the off flavors. When you transferred to the secondary was there any splashing or did you carefully rack the beer into the secondary with pretty much no splashing going on? Also what size of a secondary were you using; too much head space can lead to oxidation?

The more I looked into it and thought about it I'm wondering if your wife is picking up the "acidic" taste from the too high fermentation temps, and you are picking up the stale tastes from oxidation.

 

[canonhead311]

johnsnownw: I don't entirely trust my wives opinion on the acidic flavor but it is possible. I a wondering if due to the honey perhaps there is a bit of a mead type flavor? As I have never had mead before I can't know for sure.

Trox: Best I can remember there was no or minimal splashing when I transferred it to both the secondary and the bottling bucket. The secondary fermenter is a 5gallon plastic carboy so there is a good bit of head space.

After thinking about it a bit more last night there are three things that I think might contribute to the off flavors; tap water added to a half batch boil, I used hand soap instead of dish soap to clean the fermenter (my wife has ornamental dispensers and I didn't know which was which, I still used Starsan afterwards), the last thing would be like you all have stated the higher fermentation temperatures.

With this all being said I guess I will go ahead and ask the typical noob question... how long do I give it?

 

[Trox]

Instead of soap I would see about getting either PBW or oxiclean ( I've been using the Kroger brand oxi-clean which has been working great for me). That and see about getting some water from the grocery store one your next batch.

 

[ElCid79]

Just a thought here, but is your brew kettle only a brew kettle? Or do you use one of your kitchen pots? It could have had some residue on it, that messed things up...

 

[johnsnownw]

That honey will not have contributed anything perceptible to the beer...other than ABV and drying it out. Honey is pretty much 100% ferment-able.

Yeah, that head space in your secondary wasn't doing you any favors...limited splashing or not.

This being a 2.5 gallon batch, and with the addition of honey, leads me to believe the malt was somewhat limited in this kit. That being the case, and dependent on the type of malt, it could very well be a simple issue of a lack of flavor due to sparsity of ingredients.

To answer your time question, probably no amount of time is going to help. The issue being that if it hasn't cleaned itself up by now, it probably won't in the future. Couple that with the fact that you may have exposed the beer to more oxygen that intended, and you'll just end up with an even more oxidized beer over time.

My suggestion is to just drink the beer now...maybe keep one or two to age as a reference...and just use this as a learning experience.

 

[canonhead311]

Appreciate all the replies everyone. I will certainly heed the advice given here and continue to read up on these forums for advice in future brews. I am about to bottle my porter tmw so wish me luck with that (I am getting to an almost fanatical stage with cleaning my bottles because thus far it tastes great).