Scottish Wee Heavy - Yeast Options

[mrgrimm101]

I am going to brew a Scottish Wee Heavy. I am still putting a recipe together, but I am thinking OG around 1.075-1.085. I realize that there are Scottish ale liquid yeast strains (WLP028 and WY1728). According to Beersmith, I would need about 4 packs of liquid yeast (or less if I were to do a starter).

My question is: would I be ok to just use rehydrated S-04 packets? I can most likely do 2 rehydrated packets of dry yeast and be ok, I just don't know if there will really be a huge difference in the yeast character of the finished beer between the S-04 and Scottish strains.

I COULD look into making starters, but since this will be my 2nd all grain brew, I wanted to focus more on the all grain process and worry about starters after i get a few all grain brews under my belt. Using the dry yeast will be one less thing to worry about.

 

[Oginme]

since this will be my 2nd all grain brew, I wanted to focus more on the all grain process and worry about starters after i get a few all grain brews under my belt. Using the dry yeast will be one less thing to worry about.

This is your key statement. S-04 is perfectly fine to use and you will end up with tasty beer. Go for it!

 

[Braufessor]

I would not brew a beer that big with liquid yeast and not make a starter. So, I agree - SO4.

Down the road - I love 1728 and use it often in smaller scottish beers and then harvest the yeast to brew all of my bigger stouts, porters, etc. Great yeast...... it ferments well on the cool side which is nice for those big beers. Sometimes high gravity beers can get away from you in regard to fermentation temp. 1728 will chug along steadily while you keep it cool and result in a nice clean beer.

 

[mrgrimm101]

Thanks!

My options for ferm temps are either around 60F downstairs, or around 66F-68F upstairs. I was planning on keeping it upstairs. I wouldn't be overly disappointed if it wasn't super clean and was a bit estery from being in the mid-high 60s. I ferment US-05 at these temps a lot and it always ends up good.

I haven't nailed down my recipe just yet, so it may end up not being so big..but either way I would need too many liquid yeast vials. That's why I would rather rehydrate a couple packs of S-04. Like I said, I'm just making sure the flavor difference isn't too big of a deal..

 

[Braufessor]

I think the SO4 should be a good choice.

I have the same deal with my temps. 60 in the basement and 66-68 upstairs.

I usually start my ferments in the basement. Active fermentation tends to drive the temp of the beer up to 66-68. Around day 2-3-4 I bring the fermenter upstairs as initial fermentation levels off and let it finish out where it is a bit warmer.

 

[Lpera]

I recently brewed a Wee Heavy. I used S-05 and the fermentation temperature was 58F.

What is the size of your batch? If you are brewing 5 gallons my recommendation is to use at least 3 packages and re-hydrate them. This is a very high OG beer, under pitching will surely hurt the beer.

 

[lumpher]

at 1.075-1.080, 2 packs of s-04 will work and taste fine. many of us use a rule of thumb of 1 pack dry yeast up to about 1.060, 2 for 1.060-1.100. i've been using dry yeast almost strictly for all my years of brewing, and this rule of thumb has worked well for me

 

[mrgrimm101]

I think the SO4 should be a good choice.

I have the same deal with my temps. 60 in the basement and 66-68 upstairs.

I usually start my ferments in the basement. Active fermentation tends to drive the temp of the beer up to 66-68. Around day 2-3-4 I bring the fermenter upstairs as initial fermentation levels off and let it finish out where it is a bit warmer.

I usually do this as well, but in our lovely Michigan winters here when the basement reaches 59-60 ambient I generally don't do it as much.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I think the SO4 should be a good choice.

I have the same deal with my temps. 60 in the basement and 66-68 upstairs.

I usually start my ferments in the basement. Active fermentation tends to drive the temp of the beer up to 66-68. Around day 2-3-4 I bring the fermenter upstairs as initial fermentation levels off and let it finish out where it is a bit warmer.

I am a new brewer and my second batch was very similar to the one you are proposing. I made the mistake of fermenting at too low of a temp and had off honey flavors from what I believe was excessive pentainedione using S-04.

I brew one gallon batches, though so my brews are more susceptible to cold than you guys and based on my limited experience I agree with Braufessor's ferm temp schedule.

You may want to start cold with S-04 because it comes up fast and hot. With your big 5 gallon fermentors you will have much higher internal temps with S-04 than you would with US-05. I have used US-05 twice now and it is more the tortoise, while the S-04 is the hare.

Make sure you weigh my opinion as like I said, I am new.

 

[mrgrimm101]

at 1.075-1.080, 2 packs of s-04 will work and taste fine. many of us use a rule of thumb of 1 pack dry yeast up to about 1.060, 2 for 1.060-1.100. i've been using dry yeast almost strictly for all my years of brewing, and this rule of thumb has worked well for me

This has been my rule as well and I've always gotten good results.

I recently brewed a Wee Heavy. I used S-05 and the fermentation temperature was 58F.

What is the size of your batch? If you are brewing 5 gallons my recommendation is to use at least 3 packages and re-hydrate them. This is a very high OG beer, under pitching will surely hurt the beer.

It is a 5 gallon batch. I will do some more figuring and look closer at the numbers in Beersmith, but I'm thinking that I will be ok with 2 rehydrated packs.

 

[mrgrimm101]

I am a new brewer and my second batch was very similar to the one you are proposing. I made the mistake of fermenting at too low of a temp and had off honey flavors from what I believe was excessive pentainedione using S-04.

I brew one gallon batches, though so my brews are more susceptible to cold than you guys and based on my limited experience I agree with Braufessor's ferm temp schedule.

You may want to start cold with S-04 because it comes up fast and hot. With your big 5 gallon fermentors you will have much higher internal temps with S-04 than you would with US-05. I have used US-05 twice now and it is more the tortoise, while the S-04 is the hare.

Make sure you weigh my opinion as like I said, I am new.

Thanks for the input! I usually use US-05 in every batch. I've found some peachy flavors when it ferments at 59-60F ambient..internal closer to 61-62F. I've only used S-04 once before and it was very fast fermentor, but it was probably closer to 62-64F ambient at the time.

 

[mrgrimm101]

Does anyone have any first hand experience with the flavor differences from the liquid Scottish ale yeasts compared with dry S-04?

 

[hannibalmdq]

Does anyone have any first hand experience with the flavor differences from the liquid Scottish ale yeasts compared with dry S-04?

WLP028 throws some very different esters to S-04. I actually prefer WLP028 to S-04, both in taste and also because WLP028 attenuates further. WLP028 actually goes wonderfully in american wheat beers (off topic).

However, for my wee heavy, I've actually settled on Nottingham. I like that finishes much lower than s-04, which I prefer in my big beers, that it drops just as bright, and while it's a very clean yeast at 60F still brings a very pleasing ester that makes malt forward beers shine. It may actually be a cleaner ferment than some classic examples of the style, but I thing it produces a lovely, clean, big malt foward beer, without being downright cloying. And that's pretty much what I'm looking for in my Wee Heavy.

 

[mrgrimm101]

WLP028 throws some very different esters to S-04. I actually prefer WLP028 to S-04, both in taste and also because WLP028 attenuates further. WLP028 actually goes wonderfully in american wheat beers (off topic).

However, for my wee heavy, I've actually settled on Nottingham. I like that finishes much lower than s-04, which I prefer in my big beers, that it drops just as bright, and while it's a very clean yeast at 60F still brings a very pleasing ester that makes malt forward beers shine. It may actually be a cleaner ferment than some classic examples of the style, but I thing it produces a lovely, clean, big malt foward beer, without being downright cloying. And that's pretty much what I'm looking for in my Wee Heavy.

This is good info, thank you. I was actually on the fence between S-04 and Nottingham. I've read that Notty is closer to US-05, so a bit cleaner and less estery, which is why I was leaning toward S-04 for this particular beer. Maybe I should put some more thought into it.. I've read that Notty likes it on the cold side, so my basement around 60F wouldn't be as big of a problem. Will it still throw off some esters at these lower temps?

 

[hannibalmdq]

This is good info, thank you. I was actually on the fence between S-04 and Nottingham. I've read that Notty is closer to US-05, so a bit cleaner and less estery, which is why I was leaning toward S-04 for this particular beer. Maybe I should put some more thought into it.. I've read that Notty likes it on the cold side, so my basement around 60F wouldn't be as big of a problem. Will it still throw off some esters at these lower temps?

If you like s-04s esters, go for it. S-04 throws a lot of fruity british esters.

Notty at 60 and under will produce a very clean beer. Anecdotally, I don't really care for much above 65. It's still readily identifiable as an ale yeast when run between about 55 and 62, but it's very subdued. I wouldn't exactly call it fruity at those temps. It looses a lot of its Englishiness. It's just tosses some esters that accentuate the mouthfeel and sweetness of the malt bill and mutes hop prominence a bit. I'm having a hard time putting it into words though. It's not really a fruity British strain at those temps, more of a malt-accentuating clean strain.

If you're looking for a British profile for your Wee Heavy, I'd just pitch the s-04 and leave it in your basement for 3 to 4 days. Then move the carboy somewhere a little warmer to clean up. Mash low and long and s-04 ought to do fine.

If you're looking for something a little truer to style, I think either WLP028 or the Wyeast Scotch Ale strain are fine choices. The scottish yeasts are a little bit different in ester profile to the English yeasts. They'll throw a little bit of peaty flavor and some darker fruits. I think the Wyeast strain produces a cleaner beer when run cold (compared to 028), but I'm just going off what I've read on this forum and elsewhere, I've never used it.

 

[mrgrimm101]

If you like s-04s esters, go for it. S-04 throws a lot of fruity british esters.

Notty at 60 and under will produce a very clean beer. Anecdotally, I don't really care for much above 65. It's still readily identifiable as an ale yeast when run between about 55 and 62, but it's very subdued. I wouldn't exactly call it fruity at those temps. It looses a lot of its Englishiness. It's just tosses some esters that accentuate the mouthfeel and sweetness of the malt bill and mutes hop prominence a bit. I'm having a hard time putting it into words though. It's not really a fruity British strain at those temps, more of a malt-accentuating clean strain.

If you're looking for a British profile for your Wee Heavy, I'd just pitch the s-04 and leave it in your basement for 3 to 4 days. Then move the carboy somewhere a little warmer to clean up. Mash low and long and s-04 ought to do fine.

If you're looking for something a little truer to style, I think either WLP028 or the Wyeast Scotch Ale strain are fine choices. The scottish yeasts are a little bit different in ester profile to the English yeasts. They'll throw a little bit of peaty flavor and some darker fruits. I think the Wyeast strain produces a cleaner beer when run cold (compared to 028), but I'm just going off what I've read on this forum and elsewhere, I've never used it.

I want the malt to be very prominent, I just figured I would want some fruity esters as well, as it is somewhat of an English style. Obviously Scotch ales are their own style, I just thought some esters were desired in the style.

Unfortunately, I don't think the liquid strains are a viable option for me right now in my set up. I want to get through a few more all-grain batches before attempting to use liquid yeast.

 

[hannibalmdq]

I want the malt to be very prominent, I just figured I would want some fruity esters as well, as it is somewhat of an English style. Obviously Scotch ales are their own style, I just thought some esters were desired in the style.

Unfortunately, I don't think the liquid strains are a viable option for me right now in my set up. I want to get through a few more all-grain batches before attempting to use liquid yeast.

Have you had a Taquir House Ale? You should go get one and enjoy it if you haven't. I personally think there's a big gap between the BCJP definition of the style and some of examples are pretty far apart. "Fermented at cooler temperatures than most ales, and with lower hopping rates, resulting in clean, intense malt flavors." -2008

I personally don't think Taquir is all that clean. I personally find it to be an ester bomb of dark fruit and raisin and other fruity, but not exactly British, esters. Some of those flavors may come from boiling down the first running to a syrup or the extended boil. Those traits are hinted at in the other sections of the style guide, but the summation really underplays how estery some classic examples are.

If you want something like that, I'd use s-04 fermented low to start, pull the first half gallon of runnings and boil it to almost a syrup, and add it back into a wort that's been boiled 90+ minutes. That should give you a lot Scotch character and some of the fruity esters I think are part of the style.

I just perfer a version that's a little less estery and a little drier, so I use Notty. Different strokes, different folks. I'm sure your beer will turn out great.

 

[mrgrimm101]

Has anyone used Mangrove Jack M03 with a Wee Heavy? I have a friend recommending that..

http://mangrovejacks.com/products/uk-dark-ale-yeast

 

[skitter]

I did some calcs on my Barleywine I am planning to brew this weekend, and according to Mr Malty one packet of Nottingham (11g) will work for my 2.5G batch. So 2 packets of S-04 should be fine for your 5g batch.