Scaling for OG

[Clarke]

I received a recipe from a friend and I ran his numbers thru the beer math formulas and it seems he is only getting 60% efficiency, my efficiency lately is around 77%-80%. His OG with this recipe at 60% eff. is 1.066, with my potential OG of 77% eff. with his recipe should be 1.084.

To match his OG should I lessen the grain bill or dilute the wart? Typically I just lessen the base grain and leave the specialty malts the same but I have never tasted the recipes I am copying from so I never put much thought to it. I have tasted this recipe and love it, so now I want an exact copy. What should I do?

 

[jdauria]

Usually when scaling recipe I use BeerSmith and scale up from say a BYO magazine 65% efficiency to my 72%, it changes ALL grain and even the hops a little. If you don't have software, you can go to Brewers Friend online site and enter his recipe at his % and then go to the Recipe Tool tab on upper right, select scale and change to your % and it will change all the ingredients. http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator/

A lot of times when you scale you get numbers like 9.2 oz of a specialty grain, or .35 oz of hops, etc. At this point, once recipe is scaled, I usually just round my grains up or down to make it easier to get at the brew shop.

 

[Clarke]

So what you’re saying is I should scale all my grain proportionally? I read somewhere; I think in an article of BYO that the author recommends to only change the base malt to match the OG and not the specialty grains because it will alter the character of the beer. So in the past I have only ever altered the base malt to match OG. But now I am thinking no matter what I do, Alter the base malt, Alter the specialty grain or add water for dilution, it will all alter the character of the beer, will it not? I am trying to figure out this concept, not the math.

 

[Yooper]

So what you’re saying is I should scale all my grain proportionally? I read somewhere; I think in an article of BYO that the author recommends to only change the base malt to match the OG and not the specialty grains because it will alter the character of the beer. So in the past I have only ever altered the base malt to match OG. But now I am thinking no matter what I do, Alter the base malt, Alter the specialty grain or add water for dilution, it will all alter the character of the beer, will it not? I am trying to figure out this concept, not the math.

No, if you simply adjust the grains (all of them, not just the base grain), the beer is the same.

For example, say you have a recipe like this:

90% US two-row
5% crystal 60L
5% Munich malt

If you make a 5 gallon batch at 75% efficiency or a 5 gallon batch at 50% efficiency- it's the same beer. It's still the same proportion and the same recipe.

 

[Clarke]

No, if you simply adjust the grains (all of them, not just the base grain), the beer is the same.

For example, say you have a recipe like this:

90% US two-row
5% crystal 60L
5% Munich malt

If you make a 5 gallon batch at 75% efficiency or a 5 gallon batch at 50% efficiency- it's the same beer. It's still the same proportion and the same recipe.

So whether I am scaling for gallons or scaling for OG, it is all proportionally the same?

100-(50/75 *100) = 33.33%

5 Gallons

75% Eff.
90% = 9#
5% = .5#
5% = .5#
1.054 OG

50% Eff.
90% = 9#
5% = .5#
5% = .5#
1.036 OG

75% Eff.
9# - 33% = 6.03#
.5# - 33% = .34#
.5# - 33% = .34#
1.036 OG


So the volume of water compared to the pounds of grain is not a concern because I can assume or it is more like actuality that the percentage of mash efficiency is proportional to all sugar, flavor & mouth feel extracted from the grain, both Base and Specialty Malts commbined?

 

[Yooper]

So the volume of water compared to the pounds of grain is not a concern because I can assume or it is more like actuality that the percentage of mash efficiency is proportional to all sugar, flavor & mouth feel extracted from the grain, both Base and Specialty Malts commbined?

I have no idea what that means.

But the recipes are the same, assuming you scale up for your efficiency (or down). 90% two row is still 90% two-row, regardless of batch size or efficiency.

 

[CarboyBoy]

I'm with the OP - I've been trying to get a handle on this for quite a while now, and I still don't know what's best.

My confusion is not so much with the base malt as with the crystal and roast malts.

In Yooper's example, at 75% efficiency for 1.048 OG you'd have 7.7 lbs. base malt and 6.8 oz of each C60 and Munich. But at 50% (maintaining the 90/5/5 ratios) you'd have 11.5 lbs base malt and 10.2 oz each of the C60 and Munich.

That's a difference of 3.4 oz in each of the C60 and Munich, and the difference widens the higher the OG.

Here's my question: how will 6.8 oz of C60 at 75% efficiency give you the same crystal character as 10.2 oz at 50% in the same batch volume? Likewise with the Munich - it's usually considered a base malt, but the character it contributes is greater than most other base malts, so it seems the proportion you use to the batch volume would matter.

It's always made sense to me to just scale the base malt, but I've read a lot of advice from well respected and seasoned brewers (like Yooper) that you should scale everything, including crystal and roast malts.

Can anyone describe more fully the reasoning behind scaling everything?

 

[Yooper]

Ok, I'll try to explain my rationale. It's about the balance.

If the amount of the two-row (or other base malt) changes, then to keep the same balance the other grains should change also.

If you change the recipe to 95% two-row, 2.5% crystal, 2.5% Munich malt because you increased the two-row, then it's not the same recipe it was.

We're not talking about huge amounts here- say, the difference between 80% efficiency and 68% efficiency. If someone is getting only 50% efficiency, that may be a different beer anyway due to whatever their issues are (probably conversion related).

So comparing 50% efficiency with ANY other efficiency probably isn't a valid comparison. But it's reasonable for someone to get 65% and for me to get 75%- and in those cases the recipe should stay the same with the %s.

 

[CarboyBoy]

Thanks for taking the time to explain that way of thinking, Yooper. It does make sense. Seems like it comes down to trying to keep the specialty malts in proportion with the other grains versus keeping them in proportion to the batch size.

Keeping the specialty grains in proportion to the batch size (as I've been doing) gets a little more complicated with other base malts like Maris Otter or pilsner malt that DO contribute more flavor and character than 2-row. If you scale those base malts down or up in proportion to the specialty malts, then the specialty malt characteristics will likely not be what the recipe intended. Which I think is exactly what you're saying would happen.

But I still can't get away from the feeling that changing the proportion of the specialty malts to the batch size moves you away from the intended recipe, too.

I like to be very precise about things, but I also acknowledge precision can get you only so far, even in this great hobby of ours. In my own mind, I've resigned to the realization that in order to brew the exact recipe, you probably need to brew with the same efficiency. But even then, there are plenty of process variable to guarantee you won't be brewing the exact beer. So try to get close, and enjoy what comes of it.

I spent last year brewing mostly out of Brewing Classic Styles and leaving the specialty malts in proportion to the batch size. Maybe I'll start scaling all grains together and see what happens.

 

[Clarke]

I have no idea what that means.

But the recipes are the same, assuming you scale up for your efficiency (or down). 90% two row is still 90% two-row, regardless of batch size or efficiency.

What I mean is 50% of fermentable sugar and non-fermentable sugar from 9#of grain is the same as getting 75% of the fermentable sugar and non-fermentable sugar from 6# of grain even though the volume of water is 5 gallons for both batches the OG should be the same. The specialty grains won't loose character or flavor by being diluted with less grain in more water.

My confusion comes from, I feel I remember reading an article that mentioned only changing the base malt and keeping the specialty grain the same to maintain the character of the beer. I will try to find this article and see where it take us, but I see your point... .60 is .60 whether I get it from 9 pounds of grain or 6 pounds of grain with the matching efficiency.

 

[Clarke]

I can't find the exact article that I took my notes from but I did find 2 other links that suggest to only adjust the base malt to match recipe OG, with one saying "perhaps increase the specialty malts but not proportionally , it suggests that changing the specialty malts would change the body of the beer.

Anyway, there seems to be two schools of thought on this and this is where I get my confusion, I seem to fall into the category that adjusting specialty malt would change the character or body of the beer per volume of water used, this just seem more logical but obviously I don't know.

http://lifefermented.wordpress.com/2013/07/02/how-to-build-a-beer-recipe/ (part 3 specialty malts, last paragraph)

http://byo.com/kolsch-altbier/item/...t-10-points-lower-than-the-recipe-target-help (Last two paragraphs)

 

[Yooper]

http://byo.com/kolsch-altbier/item/...t-10-points-lower-than-the-recipe-target-help (Last two paragraphs)

But, read the last two paragraphs again. He seems to me to contradict himself. I'll cut and paste the parts I'm talking about:

When I use other brewers’ recipes I look at the malts, their relative proportions and the original gravity. I then re-calculate the recipe based on my own brewing system and, to a large extent, ignore some of the finer details of the recipe.
{snip}
.....................
It sounds to me that your system consistently has an efficiency less than that used by most homebrew publications when they check the accuracy of recipes. If I were you, I would adjust recipes by focusing on the pale malt (or other primary source of extract). You may find that simply increasing the amount of pale malt by 20 percent over what is listed in the recipe works out. You may also want to examine the coarseness of your malt.

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Ok, why then look at the "relative proportions", and then increase only the basemalt? I still don't see the rationale but maybe it's just me.

When I brew larger batches, or smaller batches, or to a different efficiency (such as my new system vs the old), I still go with 90%/10% or whatever the recipe is. I still feel strongly that changing the proportion of the grains would change the recipe.

As an analogy, say I'm making spaghetti sauce for 4 at my house. I have it almost ready, and I find out that 7 people are coming. If I just add more tomato sauce, but not garlic and oregano, it's not the same sauce. I'd have to add more seasonings as well, to get a larger amount of the same sauce. That's how I think of brewing as well. I don't think increasing the "tomato sauce" by 20% is going to hurt of course, but I don't think it'd be keeping it the same.

 

[CarboyBoy]

I like the spaghetti sauce analogy. What about this scenario:

Yooper makes a world renowned spaghetti sauce using only tomato sauce, oregano, basil, and bay leaves. I know that my herbs are roughly the same as hers, but my tomato sauce is much more acidic - that is, I get more acidity from my tomato sauce than she does.

When I go to make that recipe, I will use less of my tomato sauce but leave the herb amounts the same. (I'll probably make up the volume difference in top off water, but this is where the analogy starts to break down.) Will the sauce be exactly the same? Probably not, but it'll be closer than if I scaled the herbs back, too.

 

[Clarke]

But, read the last two paragraphs again. He seems to me to contradict himself. I'll cut and paste the parts I'm talking about:

When I use other brewers’ recipes I look at the malts, their relative proportions and the original gravity. I then re-calculate the recipe based on my own brewing system and, to a large extent, ignore some of the finer details of the recipe.
{snip}
.....................
It sounds to me that your system consistently has an efficiency less than that used by most homebrew publications when they check the accuracy of recipes. If I were you, I would adjust recipes by focusing on the pale malt (or other primary source of extract). You may find that simply increasing the amount of pale malt by 20 percent over what is listed in the recipe works out. You may also want to examine the coarseness of your malt.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, why then look at the "relative proportions", and then increase only the basemalt? I still don't see the rationale but maybe it's just me.

When I brew larger batches, or smaller batches, or to a different efficiency (such as my new system vs the old), I still go with 90%/10% or whatever the recipe is. I still feel strongly that changing the proportion of the grains would change the recipe.

As an analogy, say I'm making spaghetti sauce for 4 at my house. I have it almost ready, and I find out that 7 people are coming. If I just add more tomato sauce, but not garlic and oregano, it's not the same sauce. I'd have to add more seasonings as well, to get a larger amount of the same sauce. That's how I think of brewing as well. I don't think increasing the "tomato sauce" by 20% is going to hurt of course, but I don't think it'd be keeping it the same.

The only thing is, and this is what is tripping me up, you increased the volume of your spaghetti sauce. You went from 4 cups, for example enough to serve 4 people, to 7 cups enough to serve 7 people, this is volume scaling. When scaling for OG the volume stays the same 5 gallons of 1.040 or 5 gallons of 1.060 but still 5 gallons. If I add more flavor from the tomato to this 4 cups then yes I would need more flavor from the other ingredients to match the more intense tomato flavor to balance it out. But base malt is relatively mild, not flavorless but mild compared to specialty grain. If I increase base and specialty malt equally I would assume the ratio of flavor and body from the specialty grain would outpace the base malt.

This is where experience comes in, and you have much more than I…
Thanks Yooper for getting me to think.

Here is another link supporting your point of view. It seems there is very little discussion out there on scaling for OG that has a definitive answer

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=101199

 

[Clarke]

Another thought, efficiency is also based on starch conversion not necessarily the amount of sugar extracted from the grain. Specialty grain most of the starches have already been converted during the malting processes. So I could realistically have extracted all the sugar and flavor from the specialty grain and the low eff. would be due to not converting all the starches from the base malt. So at this point changing the specialty grain with the base malt would change the character of the beer for a 5 gallon batch when just changing the base malt would have achieved my desired OG and not change the character gained from the specialty grains?

I am thinking way too much on this now…

 

[Yooper]

Another thought, efficiency is also based on starch conversion not necessarily the amount of sugar extracted from the grain. Specialty grain most of the starches have already been converted during the malting processes. So I could realistically have extracted all the sugar and flavor from the specialty grain and the low eff. would be due to not converting all the starches from the base malt. So at this point changing the specialty grain with the base malt would change the character of the beer for a 5 gallon batch when just changing the base malt would have achieved my desired OG and not change the character gained from the specialty grains?

I am thinking way too much on this now…

You do get more out of specialty grains with mashing than steeping. Not a whole lot, but some. Conversion is important to avoid a starchy beer, and if you have conversion issues then it's not going to matter if you reduced the specialty grains vs increased the base malt.

I guess I don't see the issue, as if your grains are a set percent it wouldn't matter if your efficiency is 65% or 85%, or if you're making a 5 gallon batch or a 20 gallon batch- if the ingredients are in the same proportions, it would be the same beer.

Changing the proportions changes the recipe.

 

[Yooper]

The only thing is, and this is what is tripping me up, you increased the volume of your spaghetti sauce. You went from 4 cups, for example enough to serve 4 people, to 7 cups enough to serve 7 people, this is volume scaling. When scaling for OG the volume stays the same 5 gallons of 1.040 or 5 gallons of 1.060 but still 5 gallons. If I add more flavor from the tomato to this 4 cups then yes I would need more flavor from the other ingredients to match the more intense tomato flavor to balance it out. But base malt is relatively mild, not flavorless but mild compared to specialty grain. If I increase base and specialty malt equally I would assume the ratio of flavor and body from the specialty grain would outpace the base malt.

This is where experience comes in, and you have much more than I…
Thanks Yooper for getting me to think.

Here is another link supporting your point of view. It seems there is very little discussion out there on scaling for OG that has a definitive answer

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=101199

Here's where I think we're miscommunicating. If the OG is 1.040 for my wort, and the OG is 1.060 for yours- it's not the same beer! The grains (all of them, in my opinion) should be scaled up so that the OG of my wort is 1.060. THEN it's the same beer. Volume is immaterial.

 

[Clarke]

Yooper, thank you for being so patient with me...

 

[jdauria]

Here's a couple examples of recipes, first at 65% which BYO magazine uses:.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Spencer Trappist clone - 6/14
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: Belgian Blond Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.00 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 4.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 28.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 74.2 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
9 lbs 16.0 oz Pilsen Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.0 SRM) Grain 1 81.6 %
1 lbs 16.0 oz Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 16.3 %
4.0 oz Caramel Munich 60L (Briess) (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.0 %
0.50 oz Nugget [12.75 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 27.5 IBUs
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 5 -
0.25 oz Willamette [4.75 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 1.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [35.49 ml Yeast 7 -


And here's what the recipe would look like if only had 50% efficiency:

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Spencer Trappist clone - 6/14
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: Belgian Blond Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.50 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.00 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 4.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 28.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 50.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 57.1 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
13 lbs 1.7 oz Pilsen Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.0 SRM) Grain 1 82.4 %
2 lbs 10.0 oz Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 16.5 %
2.9 oz Caramel Munich 60L (Briess) (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 1.1 %
0.50 oz Nugget [12.75 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 27.5 IBUs
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 5 -
0.25 oz Willamette [4.75 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 1.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [35.49 ml Yeast 7