Santa Rosa CA water report

[cease]

Hello everyone,

So like a lot of you I finally feel very confident in my brewing process and now want to dive into water chemistry. I have read How to Brew and a few other articles, listened to a few podcasts and talked with some guys from my LBS on water in my area but am still a bit lost. Water seems like a daunting subject matter so I am turning to you guys for some help.

I have attached a link to the Santa Rosa CA (home of Russian River) and was wondering what you guys think of the water? My LBS told me that they only use RO built water due to chlorine but I use campden tablets and my water also tastes pretty chlorine free. Just hoping to pick your brains as a starting off point.

Thanks in advance for the replies and cheers!


http://srcity.org/doclib/Documents/SRU14_waterreport_ONLINEFINAL.pdf



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[Hermit]

That pdf bogs my browser down so I didn't look too much. Water doesn't look too bad. My advice is always the same though. Read the primer and then use one of the many water/grist estimators and plug your numbers in and go from there. You learn a lot that way. The primer keeps it as simple as it gets. The only time we can really give general advice on water is if it is pretty bad and you are better off not using it. After that it is a matter of what brews you want to do. That is where the programs come in.

Using RO water STRICTLY for chlorine seems a little silly so you are wise to take their advice with a grain of salt.

 

[mabrungard]

The sad fact is that if someone is using a RO process for the purpose of chlorine removal, they would be far better off with using an activated carbon filter and throttling it to a similar flow rate that a RO system uses. In the case of the typical 10-inch undersink filter cartridges, the flow rate needs to be about 0.1 gal/min to remove chloramine effectively. The flow through a RO system is similar.

The Santa Rosa water isn't terrible. However, its alkalinity definitely needs attention. Acidification can take care of that. The only other issue with that water is a slightly high sodium content, but its not too bad at around 54 ppm. Sodium is not really a detriment unless you want to boost the sulfate content into the pale ale range.

Using RO water is NOT necessary for brewing in Santa Rosa.

Kiss a Snoopy for me!

 

[ajdelange]

My LBS told me that they only use RO built water due to chlorine....

Did they really say that? As the water is chlorinated as opposed to chloraminated simple standing, especially warm in a HLT will remove the chlorine. No need even for Campden tablets.

Beyond which chlorine, allowed to hit the RO membrane, will shorten its life so that the RO feed water needs to be dechlorinated before the membrane. Most RO systems have a carbon filter before the membrane for this reason.

The main reason to use RO with this water is not to eliminate the mineral content but to eliminate the variability in the content. Most of the water is purchased from a source which is, according to the reported min and max levels, potentially quite variable. The city's wells, are much lower in content but apparently are not used much of the time or only as a 5% blend. I can't tell which.

I would advise obtaining alkalinity and hardness test kits and monitoring these parameters over time (once a week perhaps) to see how much your tap water actually varies. If the large excursions are rare then you can get a Ward Labs report, treat it as typical and brew in the knowledge that if the water supply is not what you expect that at least this will be a rare event. If alkalinity is all over the map then you can always use the expedient of adding enough acid to bring the water to mash pH. This sets effective alkalinity (water proton deficit) to zero and you can use as much acid (or base) as is necessary to overcome grist proton deficit (or surfeit). If this seems like a lot of trouble (and it is) then consider a RO system. I'm guessing this is the reason your guys are using one.

 

[cease]

Thank you guys for the replies, lots of good info!

Yeah the LBS did state that the chlorine in the water was an issue, I thought it a but strange because my water tastes very clean but I have been using the campden tablets just to be on the safe side. With no water adjustments I have to say my beers turn out good. My friends, family and most importantly I enjoy them. My pale ales and blonde ales though are not the best and I think my IPA's are missing that "pop."

Any suggestions on adjustments for pales? A brewer I met around here told me he uses gypsum for all his IPAs. Thoughts on that?

Thanks again guys!


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[cease]

OK,
I played a bit with EZ Water Calc and came up with some adjustments based on my IPA grains. Any suggestions on this:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 28.1
Mg: 16
Na: 53.9
Cl: 22.3
SO4: 0
CaCO3: 225

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 5.2 / 4.11
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 13.6

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 10 / 0
CaCl2: 5 / 0
MgSO4: 1 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 2
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 213 / 131
Mg: 21 / 19
Na: 54 / 54
Cl: 145 / 91
SO4: 303 / 169
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.48 / 0.54

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 106
RA: -58
Estimated pH: 5.58
(room temp)

 

[helibrewer]

Unfortunately, that LHBS sometimes thinks they are the know-all-end-all of brewing knowledge. I had a chance to speak to Vinnie about how he treats his process water and he said that RRBC uses the muni supply run through carbon and acidified with Phosphoric acid.

 

[cease]

Unfortunately, that LHBS sometimes thinks they are the know-all-end-all of brewing knowledge. I had a chance to speak to Vinnie about how he treats his process water and he said that RRBC uses the muni supply run through carbon and acidified with Phosphoric acid.

Right on. I've been doing the same but with Lactic Acid. The beers have been fine but I do add gypsum to IPAs and pales. The Santa Rosa water agency was pretty nice when I called. Based on my address they told me I only get municipal water and never the Santa Rosa well water which stops pumping around Farmers Lane.

 

[rakader]

The sad fact is that if someone is using a RO process for the purpose of chlorine removal, they would be far better off with using an activated carbon filter and throttling it to a similar flow rate that a RO system uses. In the case of the typical 10-inch undersink filter cartridges, the flow rate needs to be about 0.1 gal/min to remove chloramine effectively. The flow through a RO system is similar.

The Santa Rosa water isn't terrible. However, its alkalinity definitely needs attention. Acidification can take care of that. The only other issue with that water is a slightly high sodium content, but its not too bad at around 54 ppm. Sodium is not really a detriment unless you want to boost the sulfate content into the pale ale range.

Using RO water is NOT necessary for brewing in Santa Rosa.

Kiss a Snoopy for me!

Hi - I try. to brew an PtE clone with water form Santa Rosa. For this I found the actual water report at https://srcity.org/DocumentCenter/View/28303/2019-Water-Quality-Report-PDF

When I try to use the data from this profile in Brew'n Water, everything turns red for brewing gypsum and calcium chloride. I guess the problem is the missing sulphate, which is indicated with 0.65ppm.

How should I proceed? I know Brew'n Water relatively well, but I have never had such a profile.

Thanks in advance,
Radulph

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Hi - I try. to brew an PtE clone with water form Santa Rosa. For this I found the actual water report at https://srcity.org/DocumentCenter/View/28303/2019-Water-Quality-Report-PDF

When I try to use the data from this profile in Brew'n Water, everything turns red for brewing gypsum and calcium chloride. I guess the problem is the missing sulphate, which is indicated with 0.65ppm.

How should I proceed? I know Brew'n Water relatively well, but I have never had such a profile.

Thanks in advance,
Radulph

If it helps, your water analysis is:
-------------------------------------------
Ca++ = 27.5 ppm
Mg++ = 17.7 ppm
Na+ = 52.3 ppm
Cl- = 20.7 ppm
SO4-- = 0.65 ppm
Alkalinity = 225 ppm
Bicarbonate = 274.5 ppm

Canned water profiles are often highly misleading and generally amount to voodoo science. What beer style are you attempting to brew, and what are your planned mash and sparge water volumes?

 

[rakader]

Thank you Larry - yes it helps!
I saw some analysis but without Mg. SO4 is extremely little. How do you salt it without Brew'n Water complaining?

I had found a second well, called Larkfield, which also draws water from the Russian River. It also had a lot of sodium, but not so little sulphate.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thank you Larry - yes it helps!
I saw some analysis but without Mg. SO4 is extremely little. How do you salt it without Brew'n Water complaining?

I had found a second well, called Larkfield, which also draws water from the Russian River. It also had a lot of sodium, but not so little sulphate.

I can't help you there. I don't use Bru'n Water, or accept the mystical efficacy of 'purported' water profiles. The SO4-- ion is generally introduced via an addition of CaSO4 (Gypsum), or alternately MgSO4 (Epsom Salt).

 

[rakader]

Thank you. Brew'n Water turns red in Gypsum field - I never had this before. I don't know if it is OK to ignore this or not…

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Since your magnesium is already a bit on the high side I would suggest that you add only CaSO4 via which to raise SO4. It will also boost calcium, and this is beneficial.

 

[rakader]

Canned water profiles are often highly misleading and generally amount to voodoo science. What beer style are you attempting to brew, and what are your planned mash and sparge water volumes?

Sorry - I overlooked your nice offer: I want to brew a Double IPA, bright, going towards Pliny the Elder.

I like to use Randy Mosher's water profiles, so I adjust the water to support the hops. But I like to learn more!

I understand Magnesium. If it is to high, it quickly tastes harsh, scratchy, bitter.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

For a West Coast style IPA I generally shoot for about 150 mg/L SO4-- and about 75 mg/L Cl-, but don't get overly concerned about this, and certainly don't get hung up in the voodoo of their "ratios". Your main (and far more important) concern will be to knock down the high Alkalinity. Another concern of more import than pegging Cl- and SO4-- to specific mg/L values will be to boost calcium to between "loose/general" extremes of about 50 mg/L and perhaps as high as about 150 mg/L.

Getting within about 25% of a profile as to mineralization is probably about as good as hitting it dead on, as profiles are merely starting point suggestions to begin with, and they convey none of the mystical magic that many to most seem to believe they convey. The alkalinity (or bicarb) advice of 'canned' water profiles should for the most part be ignored. Certainly do not attempt to match alkalinity and/or bicarbonate.

Add chloride ions whereby to boost malt forwardness, and sulfate ions whereby to enhance dry crispness and thereby emphasize hop bitterness. The chloride/sulfate ratio business is meaningless voodoo. And one ion does not negate the impact of another ion. Again, the guidelines are loose, and most of the purported science behind them is nothing more than circular reasoning, whereby one author merely regurgitates the speculations of another, until a false consensus has established that there is truth within. Science does not involve hearsay consensus, and is not a popularity contest.

 

[rakader]

Thank you very much. I have been keeping it with sulfate at 150 mg/l and chloride at 75 mg/l for years. I often go to 220 ng/l SO4 and more when I make hop bombs.

The art is to harmonize alkalinity (in Germany we speak of residual alkalinity) and salts in a style-typical way.

I am a big fan of adjusting beer styles to suit the region. Our water here on the Danube River is not the best. This is one reason why dark beers are possible in Bavaria, but not a fine Pils like in the neighboring Czech Republic. The water is too hard. But we creative brewers are allowed to use acids and chemicals, traditional brewers have to play tricks. This is called acid malt.

Of course I work with brewing gypsum and calcium chloride, but I also like to work with Epsom salt, occasionally sodium metabisulfite, NaCl and sodium bicarbonate. The only acids I use are lactic and phosphate acid.

I am a fan of Brew'n Water. The reason for my request was this crazy water profile of Pliny The Elder, I have never seen such a low sulfate content and I wonder how to set this water for a crisp DIPA? I can't do it even with osmosis water without Brew'n Water bitching at other places because I'm shooting out with the values. Of course, it is also possible that Russian river Brewery itself rolls up or uses osmosis water. the HCO3 content is very high and with more than 10 dH, i.e. 225 ppm as CaCO3, the water is also hard. What do you think ... do they adjust their water? Judging by the values I would say yes.
Ph value beats the RA value I always say. First of all, the mashing process must be secured, then you can add salt.
Here in Germany we have been discussing the Pliny for a long time. My idea was to look for the last 5% in the water for a good close.


I see the SO4-/Cl ratio differently. You don't have to dance around the golden calf, as they say here, my lovely stuffs most of the time are very dry - but sometimes it is helpful, especially with old sweet English styles. In the summer I used some brews with different ratios, the traditional, chloride-laden ones were too sweet for me. But more important with this voodoo is to pay attention to the ratio of original wort to hop bitterness.

Thank God I don't chew much again, but I like to orientate myself on my trained taste buds. But of course it is nice to be able to skip a few steps. The Pliny The Elder is not available here. So I have to brew my own beer. Building on that, I want to develop my own Diogenes and not wait for Vesuvius to spill me like Pliny.

Many greetings from Bavaria
Radulph

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I don't have a clue as to the actual water profile used for the real Pliny The Elder. Does anyone know it?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Some combination of Ca(OH)2 (calcium hydroxide, pickling lime, or slaked lime), plus NaHCO3 (baking soda), plus MgCl2 (magnesium chloride) will likely derive a fairly close match to the water analysis seen in post #10 above, but I fail to see the logic in this. If you know how to drive CaCO3 into solution by bubbling CO2 through your water, you could try that in place of Ca(OH)2.