Sanctification Dreg brewing

[Shaffer1515]

So I had a great friend bring me 2 bottles of Sanctification and thought it was great so I took the dreggs and built them up over the last month pretty much and brewed up a recipe I stole from the great Don O's beer log ( http://www.donosborn.com/homebrew/Beer_Log.htm )

This is my second attempt with a sour beer, first being a lambic that I used the rosalaire blend from wyeast which turned out ok for my first attempt.

Guess I am looking for some info on how long the primary should take - brewed yesterday and pitched last evening this morning no real activity on the air lock which is surprising. Also should I be doing a secondary to get it off any of the sediment or can I leave it for the long haul in the primary? I only have sacrificed one bucket to the brew gods and didnt want to infect any carboys or anything unless absolutely necessary...

I'll take any pointers to help me out!

 

[m00ps]

I would not use a bucket for a sour. Way too permeable. I use glass carloys for my sours and just soak them in PBW afterwards.

 

[Shaffer1515]

I only use the bucket for sours - never anything else

 

[m00ps]

Well, being that you've only made one sour before this, I would advise to make a switch. Anything that is going to ferment for months isnt a great idea to use a bucket for. You can get acetic acid (vinegar) from the excess oxygen that gets through. just saying

 

[Shaffer1515]

Thanks, good to know, do you think its ok for the primary then move it to a secondary carboy?

 

[mitchard]

Thanks, good to know, do you think its ok for the primary then move it to a secondary carboy?

The real risk from oxidation comes in the long term aging, so primary in plastic and long term in glass is perfectly fine. Might as well do it all in glass though. I haven't been racking sours off of the primary cakes at all unless its going to another carboy with fruit, and haven't had any issues yet.

 

[m00ps]

yeah thats fine. Its best if you can minimize headspace in the secondary too. If you have a 6.5gal bucket for 5gal batches, Id get a 5gal carboy or something to use just for secondaries, sour or not

 

[Shaffer1515]

Since this is my first 100% Brett, I found a few sources saying that they ferment pretty quick and only need 4-5 months is this true? And if so would the bucket be alright for that shorter amount of time (this time around)?

 

[Agate]

I bottle my 100% brett beers at around 4 weeks. If you have a decent size starter, they really don't take much longer than a sacch beer. Of course, the flavors change over the long haul, but you can certainly be at or near your terminal gravity in 3-4 weeks. My last ECY-34 batch was done after 12 days at 1.003.

You can keep it in a bucket for a few months to let it develop, I've done it several times without issues. Or you could bottle once gravity has stabilized and let it develop in the bottle. Good luck!

 

[Sippin37]

I also built up dregs from Sanctification to make a clone of this beer. I pitched the Brett/bacteria and it took about 6 weeks before it stalled out around 1.011. I bottled to 3.5 volumes in thick Belgian bottles. I think they carbed higher than that making me think the Brett wasn't completely done. Give it some extra time and keep above 70F after a few weeks to encourage the yeast to work more. It is a fantastic beer, cheers!

 

[sweetcell]

So I had a great friend bring me 2 bottles of Sanctification and thought it was great so I took the dreggs and built them up over the last month

Guess I am looking for some info on how long the primary should take - brewed yesterday and pitched last evening this morning no real activity on the air lock which is surprising.

i would suggest adding a little sacch to that fermentation, to kick it off. chances are good that your sanctification starter is only bacteria and brett. sacch likely died off months ago. i would further a guess that the brett population is pretty small too, and in my experience brett takes a week or longer to get going. that's a long time to let the wort sit unfermented.

Also should I be doing a secondary to get it off any of the sediment or can I leave it for the long haul in the primary?

you can leave it in primary.

I only have sacrificed one bucket to the brew gods and didnt want to infect any carboys or anything unless absolutely necessary...

as others have said, primary in whatever but secondary long-term in glass. also, that bucket is now infected. i wouldn't try brewing a clean beer with it... good change that the beer won't stay clean

 

[mitchard]

changes are good that your sanctification starter is only bacteria and brett. sacch likely died off months ago. i would further a guess that the brett population is pretty small too

I think Sanctification 100% Brett fermentation, with Lacto and Pedio added for finishing. I don't believe there is Sacch in it at all. So your assumption is still technically correct haha.

 

[sweetcell]

d'oh. well then, the OP is probably in a better position then

the question remains about whether or not there is enough yeast (brett) to ferment the beer in a timely manner.

 

[Sippin37]

I was also considering using sacch along with built up dregs and then read it was 100% brett fermentation so decided against it. When building up the dregs you are essentially making starter after starter. My fermentation took off around 18 hours after pitch.

 

[Shaffer1515]

Now over a month later and I took a reading and its sitting right around 1.000 going to check it again in a week and see if its still the same before I bottle and let it sit for several months, thus taking the bucket out of the equation. Its very very similar in taste to the RR Sanctification.

My question now is will the Brett in the beer be enough to carb the beer and eat the sugar tablets or should I rehydrate some ale yeast to drop in each bottle to help out?

Also I wanted to do some wax dipping on these if anyone has any pointers

 

[drgonzo2k2]

I know that Sanctification is a 100% Brett primary fermentation; however, the final product consists of both Brett and bacteria. I'd wager that they pitch some level of their house culture (pedio/lacto) into secondary or it just picks some up from being around it. Also, doesn't Russian River use champagne yeasts for bottling? I'm guessing the OP actually has something fermenting with Brett, Sacc, and bacterial.

 

[Shaffer1515]

Also, doesn't Russian River use champagne yeasts for bottling? I'm guessing the OP actually has something fermenting with Brett, Sacc, and bacterial.

I'll have to check out their site and see if I can find any clues on the champagne yeast. The beer is very similar though to Sanctification. I know the bottle said 100% Brett Primary fermentation...

 

[drgonzo2k2]

I'll have to check out their site and see if I can find any clues on the champagne yeast. The beer is very similar though to Sanctification. I know the bottle said 100% Brett Primary fermentation...

Oh yeah, I have no doubt that it is indeed a 100% primary Brett fermentation, but the finished bottle definitely contains both Brett and bacteria:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

Also check out this comment, which confirms they use wine yeast for bottle conditioning.

It was also listed in the old Russian River bottle logs, which seem to have been taken down from their site, but you can see a reference to it being listed there in this BA thread.

Again, not saying there is anything wrong with that, I've used RR dregs with great success, but just wanted to point out that using Sanctification dregs won't result in a 100% Brett fermented beer.

 

[sweetcell]

My question now is will the Brett in the beer be enough to carb the beer and eat the sugar tablets or should I rehydrate some ale yeast to drop in each bottle to help out?

brett will carb the beer. takes a little longer, like a month, but brett will do the job.

Also I wanted to do some wax dipping on these if anyone has any pointers

heat up the wax in a mock-double-boiler by putting it in a tin can, then putting that can in a pot with water.

Also, doesn't Russian River use champagne yeasts for bottling?

they generally use Rockpile, a wine yeast, for bottle conditioning. i believe there is an exception or two to that rule but i forget what they are

 

[Shaffer1515]

Oh yeah, I have no doubt that it is indeed a 100% primary Brett fermentation, but the finished bottle definitely contains both Brett and bacteria:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

Also check out this comment, which confirms they use wine yeast for bottle conditioning.

It was also listed in the old Russian River bottle logs, which seem to have been taken down from their site, but you can see a reference to it being listed there in this BA thread.

Again, not saying there is anything wrong with that, I've used RR dregs with great success, but just wanted to point out that using Sanctification dregs won't result in a 100% Brett fermented beer.

Cool thanks for the links - looking to bottle it ASAP and avoid any oxygen and ending up with any vinegar flavoring...

 

[drgonzo2k2]

they generally use Rockpile, a wine yeast, for bottle conditioning. i believe there is an exception or two to that rule but i forget what they are

Ahh, yeah, sorry about that, meant to say a wine yeast, not a champagne yeast.

Unfortunate that they removed the bottle logs from their website

 

[mitchard]

they generally use Rockpile, a wine yeast, for bottle conditioning. i believe there is an exception or two to that rule but i forget what they are

I believe Beatification is one of those without rockpile. I've also seen Supplication, though I can't confirm either. I tossed Supplication dregs into a secondary awhile ago, but haven't tasted it since then.

I'll be growing up Beatification when I decided to crack the bottle. We'll see how that goes. Planning on making a house culture out of that plus other dregs if it works out.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

I believe Beatification is one of those without rockpile. I've also seen Supplication, though I can't confirm either. I tossed Supplication dregs into a secondary awhile ago, but haven't tasted it since then.

I'll be growing up Beatification when I decided to crack the bottle. We'll see how that goes. Planning on making a house culture out of that plus other dregs if it works out.

I think you should have a lot of success with that. I used 5 different Russian River dregs in my house culture (about 40 different dregs total), and I think it performs really really well.

 

[mitchard]

Including bottles with rockpile then I assume? No issues with it being a "killer"?

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Yeah, according to my notes I used (from Russian River)

- Beatification
- Framboise for a Cure
- Sanctification
- Supplication
- Temptation

and I've not run into any issues. I get about 85% attenuation with it, so I assumed there was some level of wine yeast in there.

Everyone that has tried them has really enjoyed my sours, and I think they're pretty good too, so I think it's okay.

Of course the house culture is heavily slanted towards Sante Adairius bottle dregs, so that probably doesn't hurt anything either

 

[sweetcell]

Including bottles with rockpile then I assume? No issues with it being a "killer"?

the killer factor only affects sacch. brett and LAB are unaffected. so the wine yeast is likely doing the primary fermentation, finishing high, and the bugs then take over.

 

[Shaffer1515]

How many generations do you think is safe to keep using the dregs I have? I know it should be good for at least one more but any more past that?

 

[sweetcell]

brett and LAB dregs? i have never used any more than 2 or 3 times, but i would think you could used them a lot more than sacch. biggest concern might be the balance between yeast and bacteria, as the bacteria might out-compete the yeast in the long-run.

 

[Agate]

brett and LAB dregs? i have never used any more than 2 or 3 times, but i would think you could used them a lot more than sacch. biggest concern might be the balance between yeast and bacteria, as the bacteria might out-compete the yeast in the long-run.

That's very true, but I bet you could knock down the LAB with a fairly hoppy wort, at least enough to favor the brett in a mixed culture.

 

[signpost]

Or you could just pitch some fresh sacch every 2nd or 3rd batch in order to keep that balance in line.

What I wonder is how diverse can a house culture really get before a small number of brett and LAB take over and knock out the rest of the bugs that have been added in?

I mean, a diverse culture is supposed to create more complexity. But I assume certain bugs are more well-suited to certain worts for one reason or another (alcohol tolerances, IBU tolerances, temperature of fermentation, speed of reproduction, whatever). That would mean they would be likely to outnumber other bugs over time and essentially reduce the diversity.

Maybe that is the whole point of a developing a house culture. Maybe it's giving the opportunity for the perfect combination/balance of bugs to thrive and the others that fall away just weren't meant to be.

Sorry, I'm babbling after more than just a few sips of my most recently packaged batch of sour beer (7.5% ABV crystal clear blonde sour with lots of brett character).

 

[mitchard]

the killer factor only affects sacch. brett and LAB are unaffected. so the wine yeast is likely doing the primary fermentation, finishing high, and the bugs then take over.

Good to know. I thought I saw that the killer strains can impact Brett, but maybe I was mistaken. That makes sense though, since the bottling strain impacting the brett and bacteria in a negative way would make aging those bottles pointless.

 

[mitchard]

Yeah, according to my notes I used (from Russian River)

- Beatification
- Framboise for a Cure
- Sanctification
- Supplication
- Temptation

and I've not run into any issues. I get about 85% attenuation with it, so I assumed there was some level of wine yeast in there.

Right on. I have Beatification, FFAC, Supplication, and Temptation at the moment. I'm thinking about trying to grow up the Beat separately from the rest though.

I made a starter with Temptation dregs a few months ago. It ended up getting a bit of mold growth somehow, which was some weird green curled flake... but it dropped into the wort and I just let it ride out for fun. Not going to use it, but it definitely soured that starter up pretty quick based on the smell alone. Smelled really nice.

 

[Shaffer1515]

What would be the best yeast to use on bottling day - for wine yeast I have access to red star champagne, Vintners SN9 and AW4, LALVIN 71B-1122, LALVIN EC-1118. Took a reading and I am around the neighborhood of .996 og was 1.056. I could still use a ale yeast possibly but as stated above it sounds like they use wine yeast...

 

[sweetcell]

it's not going to make that much of a difference. i've had a 100% success rate using champagne yeast so personally i'd go with the red star or EC-1118.

 

[Shaffer1515]

Cool I was leaning towards the EC-1118

Just curious as to how much bugs will be valid inside the bottle say if I pass on a bottle to a friend and they culture up what they can?

 

[sweetcell]

if you're a sloppy bottler and package a good amount of sediment, there might be more bugs in there than a commercial beer

also, you'll be handing him a fresh bottle. some of the commercial stuff has been sitting around, viability falls with time.

 

[topoisomerase]

Reviving an older thread that I stumbled upon while searching - Sanctification is brewed with a mix of four Brett strains. No souring bacteria are used. Also, it is bottle conditioned with Brett brux. Like nearly all RR beers, it is centrifuged after fermentation. So at least these days, bottle dregs will essentially only be Brett brux.