Sam Adams Noble Pils clone

[Mirilis]

Interested in hearing the results. Do you paln to do blind taste tests with yourself and friends to find out which they prefer and whether or not it was cloned?

 

[jgourd]

My first taste is always by itself. Mainly to enjoy and get an idea if I like it or not. But I don't think I've ever made a beer I didn't like. But I do plan to do a side-by-side after that. Blind test after with friends is always in order. I don't think it will be a perfect clone after tasting samples throughout fermentation, but I think I'll like it very much. It will give me an excuse to try again!

 

[ChemE]

This is a great seasonal brew. I too will be following the results closely.

Jgourd, consider a triangle taste test rather than just a simple blind taste test. If your palette isn't good enough to pick the odd sample, you have no right to comment on whether two beers are the same or not!

 

[jgourd]

This is a great seasonal brew. I too will be following the results closely.

Jgourd, consider a triangle taste test rather than just a simple blind taste test. If your palette isn't good enough to pick the odd sample, you have no right to comment on whether two beers are the same or not!

What's a triangle taste test? 3 beers, one of which is the original, one of which is my clone, and the last of which is something close to the style?

 

[ChemE]

2 beers in 3 cups. Two match and one is the oddball. If the taster can't identify which two are the same and which is different, then their opinion is irrelevant. If they can distinguish the two apart, then clearly there is a taste difference (so not cloned) and only then can they say which beer they like better.

Put two beers in front of someone and they will pick one over the other, but could they actually taste a difference or did they just pick for the sake of picking?

 

[jgourd]

So from this I'd assume that if no one can tell which two beers are the same, then it's cloned. Sounds good. I'll get my wife to pour and some friends to help in the tasting.

 

[ChemE]

Exactly. Triangular is all I use anymore since it is so superior to A vs. B. Good luck!

 

[Slowfro]

Help! Hey guys, I finally brewed this up last night, and may have a quite serious issue. I started with a 2.5 gallon boil (typical for what I do given my brew kettle) but had so much loss, when I topped it off to 5 gallons my OG was LOW (1.020 when its supposed to be around 1.050). My guess is fermentation will be slow, and with any luck the flavors might turn out OK, but the ABV will be very low. Any thoughts? Any possibility to save this at all?

Thanks!

 

[jgourd]

So I bottled my first try a few days ago. I snuck a taste and I was pleased. Flavor is right there to me. I won't be able to really know until I do a side-by-side though. Aroma is a good amount less than the SANP. Next time, I'll definitely dry hop with twice the amount of hops. Now I wait 3 weeks or so to try a bottle.

 

[bspisak]

They krausen theirs as opposed to using carapils, and that's how they get the mouthfeel and head.

How does that make sense? Carapils adds unfermentables that affect mouthfeel and head retention. Krausening just adds actively fermenting wort to help fermentation along and reduce diacetyl and/or to carbonate.

Perhaps they krausen with a different wort that has more unfermentables than the base wort being krausened?

 

[jgourd]

How does that make sense? Carapils adds unfermentables that affect mouthfeel and head retention. Krausening just adds actively fermenting wort to help fermentation along and reduce diacetyl and/or to carbonate.

Perhaps they krausen with a different wort that has more unfermentables than the base wort being krausened?

Perhaps. I was simply relaying information the guy at Sam Adams mentioned to me on the phone.

 

[jgourd]

So I'll be tasting my clone for the first time this weekend! Let you know how it turns out.

 

[jkarp]

Mine's now resting in a 3 gal corney, waiting for the rest of my birthday present parts (yaay kegerator!) to come in. FG was 1.009 and it tasted FANTASTIC flat...

 

[jgourd]

I'm also getting some keg stuff for my birthday. I tasted flat samples and they were great. But I can't wait to taste a carbonated sample (screw the sample, the whole beer)!

 

[brrman]

I really need a fermentation chamber to control temps... I soooo wanna brew this beer.

 

[pnh2atl]

Here is what we did. It came out great. We had about 15 people over last nigh to brew and every one who tried SA's version liked ours better. As you can tell I borrowed heavily from this thread for the recipe.

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: RB Noble Pils
Brewer: Reformation Brewery
Asst Brewer:
Style: Bohemian Pilsner
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 10.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.13 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 3.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 36.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
18 lbs 4.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 94.81 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.19 %
12.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 3.4 IBU
20.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.50 %] (60 min)Hops 3.1 IBU
26.00 gm Hallertauer [4.30 %] (60 min) Hops 7.0 IBU
14.00 gm Saaz [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 4.8 IBU
14.00 gm Spalter [4.10 %] (60 min) Hops 3.6 IBU
13.00 gm Spalter [4.10 %] (30 min) Hops 2.6 IBU
14.00 gm Hallertauer [4.30 %] (30 min) Hops 2.9 IBU
12.00 gm Saaz [5.50 %] (30 min) Hops 3.2 IBU
8.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.50 %] (30 min)Hops 1.0 IBU
16.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (30 min) Hops 3.5 IBU
11.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [3.10 %] (30 min)Hops 1.6 IBU
1 Pkgs Czech Budejovice Lager (White Labs #WLP802Yeast-Lager

We lagered it for 6 weeks at 34F and it improved greatly during that time. This will be one of our summer brews in years to come. It is also a good segue into the world of craft beers for those who prefer marketing over flavor.

 

[jgourd]

Here is what we did. It came out great. We had about 15 people over last nigh to brew and every one who tried SA's version liked ours better. As you can tell I borrowed heavily from this thread for the recipe.

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: RB Noble Pils
Brewer: Reformation Brewery
Asst Brewer:
Style: Bohemian Pilsner
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 10.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.13 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 3.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 36.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
18 lbs 4.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 94.81 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.19 %
12.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 3.4 IBU
20.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.50 %] (60 min)Hops 3.1 IBU
26.00 gm Hallertauer [4.30 %] (60 min) Hops 7.0 IBU
14.00 gm Saaz [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 4.8 IBU
14.00 gm Spalter [4.10 %] (60 min) Hops 3.6 IBU
13.00 gm Spalter [4.10 %] (30 min) Hops 2.6 IBU
14.00 gm Hallertauer [4.30 %] (30 min) Hops 2.9 IBU
12.00 gm Saaz [5.50 %] (30 min) Hops 3.2 IBU
8.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.50 %] (30 min)Hops 1.0 IBU
16.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (30 min) Hops 3.5 IBU
11.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [3.10 %] (30 min)Hops 1.6 IBU
1 Pkgs Czech Budejovice Lager (White Labs #WLP802Yeast-Lager

We lagered it for 6 weeks at 34F and it improved greatly during that time. This will be one of our summer brews in years to come. It is also a good segue into the world of craft beers for those who prefer marketing over flavor.

Awesome! I'm glad it turned out great. I tried mine for the first time (well, carbonated) yesterday and it was awesome. I didn't do a side-by-side (I will later today), but the flavor is pretty close. The aroma reminds me of a Noble Pils that's been in the bottle for a few months--meaning that there isn't near as much as a fresh one. So next time I'll dry hop a lot more. And maybe I'll take a look at the hop schedule a little.

 

[pnh2atl]

Urs lacked a little in the nose too. We did not dry hop at all and I think I'll make a note to try that next time.

 

[PCDesmond]

Awesome! I'm glad it turned out great. I tried mine for the first time (well, carbonated) yesterday and it was awesome. I didn't do a side-by-side (I will later today), but the flavor is pretty close. The aroma reminds me of a Noble Pils that's been in the bottle for a few months--meaning that there isn't near as much as a fresh one. So next time I'll dry hop a lot more. And maybe I'll take a look at the hop schedule a little.

How did the side by side taste test go?

 

[jgourd]

How did the side by side taste test go?

In terms of flavor, it's almost spot on. I'll have to tinker a bit to see how I might get an exact flavor match, but it's really close enough for me. I might also change the yeast strain for experimentation. Color is the same. Sorry I took no pictures. Mine, of course, is clear but not quite as clear as the Noble Pils since I don't filter. The aroma is similar, but I don't have the hops as there is in a fresh Noble Pils. I have some older bottles of Noble Pils that don't have the nice hop aroma, and the aroma profile is similar to my clone. So I think next time I'll dry hop with a lot more hops and maybe switch yeast strains and maybe slightly alter the hop schedule to better match the flavor. But overall, I prefer my brew to the Noble Pils (of course)!

 

[TomRep]

pnh2atl- Are there two additions of Halertauer Hersbrucker at 30 minutes or is that an error? Thanks!
tom

 

[jgourd]

Actually, for my next version of this I will also reduce the IBUs by maybe 10 or so and increase that dry hop to get a more pronounced aroma. After tasting and comparing several times now, I find the flavor and aroma profiles are very similar to the Noble Pils, just not as pronounced. And part of the flavor issue is due to a higher bitterness in my clone.

 

[slc10]

I really want to try this. this is what i have come up with based on this thread and a little research. i would love some thoughts and opinions.


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Noble Pils
Brewer: Steve Clark
Asst Brewer:
Style: German Pilsner (Pils)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 6.74 gal
Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
Estimated Color: 4.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 83.33 %
2.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 16.67 %
0.33 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (60 min)Hops 4.2 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops 6.3 IBU
0.33 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 4.7 IBU
0.33 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (60 min)Hops 4.2 IBU
0.33 oz Spalter [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 4.7 IBU
0.33 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (15 min)Hops 2.1 IBU
0.33 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (15 min)Hops 2.1 IBU
0.33 oz Spalter [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 2.3 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 3.1 IBU
0.33 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 2.3 IBU
0.33 oz Spalter [4.50 %] (2 min) Hops 0.4 IBU
0.33 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] (2 min) Hops 0.4 IBU
0.33 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (2 min) Hops 0.4 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (2 min) Hops 0.5 IBU
0.33 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] (2 min) Hops 0.4 IBU
1 Pkgs Czech Budejovice Lager (White Labs #WLP802Yeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 12.00 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 15.00 qt of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 6.00 qt of water at 196.6 F 168.0 F


Notes:
------
ferment approx. 7 days in primary (75% complete) at 50F
ferment to completion in primary approx. 2-3 days at 62F
move to secondary on 0.25oz each of the 5 hops and dry hop for 7 days at 62F
move to final and lager at 33F for 4 weeks
prime and bottle condition for 3 weeks at 72F

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[jgourd]

Looks good. I'm sure it will be a fine brew. The next time I make it, I'll reduce the bittering hops to something around 30 IBUs and use the WLP800.

 

[wildwest450]

Brewed a batch of this. All Pils, all 5 hops at 60 and 15 minutes, decoction, fermented with 2308 (Munich Lager). Wow, no way in hell that Noble pils is 35 ibu's. Mines 38, at 4.8% and has no where near the hop bite. This is a great smooth pils, but it's not Noble Pils. I'm going to dry hop, but i'm outta the noble stuff. I have Sterling and Crystal, both noble subs, which one do you think? I'm leaning twords Crystal, but who knows. I do know I will be making this again and jacking up the ibu's, the flavor is very close, but it's definitely a Noble light.

It's only been lagering for a week and isn't fully carbed, but it's going to be a great summer beer!

 

[dstar26t]

It could be a measured vs. calculated IBU thing. Which formula did you use? And where's the foam?

 

[wildwest450]

It could be a measured vs. calculated IBU thing. Which formula did you use? And where's the foam?

If you read my post, it's not fully carbed yet. This was a test glass. Plus I took a swig before the picture.


.

 

[dstar26t]

Yeah, sorry I missed the fully carbed bit.
I'm waiting for a try at Prima Pils to finish lagering, 57 IBU's tinseth. I fully expect it to not be hoppy enough but we'll see

 

[jkarp]

I need to snap a side-by-side pic of mine the next time I pour one. VERY pleased with how mine turned out. Only thing I'll change next time is to add just a bit of gypsum to the Pilsen water profile to get the clarity up. Taste is spot-on though.

 

[wildwest450]

I need to snap a side-by-side pic of mine the next time I pour one. VERY pleased with how mine turned out. Only thing I'll change next time is to add just a bit of gypsum to the Pilsen water profile to get the clarity up. Taste is spot-on though.

Yours has the bite of noble pils? My recipe is close hops wise and isn't even close to the bite that np has. The only thing I can figure is my Hersbrucker and Spalt were super low ibu 2.4%, maybe their to blame? The Hallertauer was 3.8%.

Interesting.

 

[jgourd]

Mine is very close to the bite that the Noble Pils has. The only thing I found was that the bitterness was slightly different and so was the aroma. So next time I'll alter the bittering hops and dry hop with more.

 

[jkarp]

Finally got around to snapping a pic. Color, head, and aroma are spot-on. Mine's got a little bit of haze; a bit of gypsum next time should help with that. Flavor is really, really close but it's missing that "Sam Adams" flavor that's in all their beers. Overall, I'd call it cloned and will definitely be brewing again soon.

 

[TomRep]

what was the final recipe you ended up with jkarp?

 

[jkarp]

what was the final recipe you ended up with jkarp?

Here it is.

 

[winvarin]

With the weather turning cool again, my thoughts turned to this brew. I am resurrecting this thread for a few questions to jkarp and jgourd.

jgourd - you talked about bumping the hops the next time you brewed it to increase the hop aroma. I think your recommendation was 2.5 ounces total. I am assuming that is .5 ounces of each noble hop? And I am relatively new to lager brewing. How long do you dry hop a lager and during what phase? Maturation/diacetyl rest or during lagering?

jkarp - you mentioned a little gypsum for clarity on your next attempt. What's your brewing water profile like and what adjustments did you make for this beer? I have highly alkaline water and will likely cut my water for this beer with around 90% RO water. How high did you get your Ca and SO4 numbers with this beer?

Both - What about yeast? Was the yeast you used sufficient or would you go with another strain on your next attempt? I've not had much experience at growing liquid lager yeast starters (and there are so many opinions on whether to grow them warm, at ferment temps, etc.). i was thinking about going with s-23 for my first shot at this. Do you think that would yield sufficient results or should I go for a large liquid starter instead?

 

[jkarp]

jkarp - you mentioned a little gypsum for clarity on your next attempt. What's your brewing water profile like and what adjustments did you make for this beer? I have highly alkaline water and will likely cut my water for this beer with around 90% RO water. How high did you get your Ca and SO4 numbers with this beer?

I cut my water with distilled and added lactic acid to get the following profile:

Ca:10 Mg:3 Na:3 Cl:4 SO4:4 CaCO3:36

I'd add chalk (not gypsum - typo) next time to get th Ca up into the 50s.

 

[jgourd]

jgourd - you talked about bumping the hops the next time you brewed it to increase the hop aroma. I think your recommendation was 2.5 ounces total. I am assuming that is .5 ounces of each noble hop? And I am relatively new to lager brewing. How long do you dry hop a lager and during what phase? Maturation/diacetyl rest or during lagering?

[snip]

Both - What about yeast? Was the yeast you used sufficient or would you go with another strain on your next attempt? I've not had much experience at growing liquid lager yeast starters (and there are so many opinions on whether to grow them warm, at ferment temps, etc.). i was thinking about going with s-23 for my first shot at this. Do you think that would yield sufficient results or should I go for a large liquid starter instead?

Not sure that I'd go 0.5 oz of each noble hop. I recall the Spalt being the most like the aroma I get out of the SA. So I would maybe do 0.5 oz of that and add some Saaz and maybe Tettnang for a total of 2.5 oz.

In terms of dry hopping, I waited until the diacetyl rest (when about 75% of primary fermentation was done) and added the dry hops right into the primary. I then left them there for 7 days. So consider it a 7-day diacetyl rest/dry hop phase. I then racked to secondary and lagered for 3 or 4 weeks. Next time I might rack to secondary on top of hops for the dry hop and diacetyl rest phase. Then rack again for lagering.

Good yeast strains to use are WLP800, 802, and 830. Next time I'll probably use the 830. I also make my lager starters just like I make my ale starters. And according to Mr. Malty.

 

[winvarin]

Not sure that I'd go 0.5 oz of each noble hop. I recall the Spalt being the most like the aroma I get out of the SA. So I would maybe do 0.5 oz of that and add some Saaz and maybe Tettnang for a total of 2.5 oz.

OK. Now I'm confused. That doesn't add up to 2.5 ounces if you do .5 ounce of spalt and lesser amounts of 2 others if you are trying to highlight the spalt. Or did you mean 1.5 of spalt and than a mix of saaz and tettnang for the remaining ounce?

 

[jgourd]

OK. Now I'm confused. That doesn't add up to 2.5 ounces if you do .5 ounce of spalt and lesser amounts of 2 others if you are trying to highlight the spalt. Or did you mean 1.5 of spalt and than a mix of saaz and tettnang for the remaining ounce?

Damn that 0 key! Yes, I'd probably do 1.5 oz Spalt, 0.75 oz Saaz and 0.75 oz Tettnang. But I'd need to smell them again to see.

 

[CrewF24]

Just finished listening to the Basic Brewing Radio episode that played a talk given by a rep. from Weyermann's who said that Sam uses Weyermanns Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner Malt for the Noble Pils. From my experience in using floor malted pale malts, I would think this makes a significant difference. You may even be able to eliminate some of the Crystal Malts some recipes have suggested.

Noble Pils is back for 2011 and at the package stores here in MA, so I think I'll see if I can get a hold of some of this malt and see if I can't clone it.