Saison critique

[VonAle]

Can I get some feedback on this Saison recipe ? I plan to brew this in a couple weeks.

OG 1.059
FG 1.006
IBU 33
SRM 6.8

63% 2 Pilsner
13% Wheat Malt
7% Rye Malt
6% Munich Malt
1% Special B
9% Table Sugar ( to be added to fermenter at day 2 or 3 )

Yeast – WL 3724

First Wort 1.0 EKG
60 min 1.0 Styrian Goldings
10 min 1.0 EKG
0 min 1.0 Saaz

I am going to do an “overnight” Mash @ 150 for 2.5-3 hours. Batch sparge @ 165.
75 min Boil

Chill and pitch big starter @ 66, then allow to rise to 80 or so over 2 days.
Then add 1# dissolved sugar and move fermenter into the garage where it will heat up to 94-95.

I was thinking I would only need it “hot” in the garage till the gravity dips below 1020 or so, then move it into the house and ride at 80 degrees, for as long as it takes to reach FG.

 

[btgold29]

I'm also in Phoenix, and just finished a Saison. I would keep it in the house at 80, I think 90 in the garage is too hot. I fermented mine at 80 as well and still feel its too estery, Not sure if its the yeast but I used "Wyeast French Saison" Their Belgian Saison yeast says it can "typically get stuck at 1.035" and take forever to get down to FG. I personally experienced this the first go around and I'm not very patient. Other than that I think your recipe looks good and your approach for the simple sugars should work well for "drying" it out. Do you belong to a club out here?

 

[MisterTipsy]

I'd sub rye for oats mostly because I don't like rye and oats will give it a silky mouthfeel.

 

[VonAle]

No club affiliation yet.
Thought the rye might be to much, along with the long mash. I have not seen oats in a saison yet. That is a good thought.

 

[beergolf]

I will vote to keep the rye.

I did a rye saison and it was very good. at only 7% you are not going to notice it much. I did one with 25% rye and the rest pilsen.

Your fermentation schedule looks pretty good. 3724 does like it hot. I usually pitch in the mid 60's and then slowly ramp it up to about 90. Always finishes low. Last one using that yeast finished at 1.003.

 

[Biscostew]

looks good to me, id keep it in the garage though, the hotter the better for saision yeast.

 

[Quaker]

My SiMaiYa Saison had roughly 6% each of malted rye, malted wheat, Simpson's Golden Naked Oats, and sugar in a pilsner base. I just emptied the keg last night. There was no detectable flavor contribution from the rye or oats, at least not that could be easily pinpointed. I used WLP550, not really a spicy yeast expecting to get some some spiciness from the rye. I did like the mouthfeel though. I will re-brew it later this summer with 10% of each ingredient instead of 6. With more sugar it should get drier than before, but the oats counter tgat perception some. I will likely use Wyeast 3711 yeast next time, since I have it on hand and wasn't happy with the 550 flavors. Good but not a Saison to me.

So in summary, keep the rye but increase it.

 

[btgold29]

When in doubt refer the the yeast strains recommendations for temp.

 

[VonAle]

Wyeast 3724 - temp range = 70-95
I think I'll mod the grains a bit like this:

58% 2 Pilsner
9% Wheat Malt
9% Rye Malt
9% Flaked Oats
5% Munich Malt
1% Special B
9% Table Sugar ( to be added to fermenter at day 2 or 3 )

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Can't see a reason for 1% Special B.

Exactly what flavors are you trying to produce? The munich doesn't really seem like it goes in the recipe.

 

[VonAle]

Can't see a reason for 1% Special B.

Exactly what flavors are you trying to produce? The munich doesn't really seem like it goes in the recipe.

The Special B is there for color.

The recipe started with Munich, (before I added the Oats and Spec B). I left it in there for that reason only. I honestly can't tell you why It should stay in there or not. I guess it contributes sweet / malt flavor and color.

I can loose the munich, but what should I sub it out with ?

 

[MrOrange]

I would keep the munich, but if you are going to get rid of it maybe sub it with some vienna. I used vienna in my saison with awesome results

 

[VonAle]

Well I brewed this, this morning. I kept the Munich, added the Oats and also decided to follow my original plan and make it more Rye based. This is the grain bill that I used.

60% 2 Pilsner
14% Rye Malt
6% Munich Malt
6% Wheat Malt
6% Flaked Oats
1% Special B
7% Table Sugar ( to be added to fermenter at day 2 or 3 )

WLP 565 Belgian Saison I

I planned to use Wyeast 3724 with stepped up starter, but I Ef..d that up and ended up doing a 1.5L starter with the WLP 565 at the last moment.

I did an overnight mash and it worked out pretty good, I think.
I heated up my water when I got home from work (4 pm) and poured it in my MT at about 25 degrees over strike temp (185). Then, I heated my Sparge water to boil and poured into a cooler.

Wife and I went out for some beers and when we got home, (9:30 pm) my mash water was 2 degrees above strike (159). I stirred a bit to cool, then mashed in and then went to bed. (Mash rest = 149)

Got up at 4 am, to proceed. Sparge water was 185 degrees in the cooler, so I transferred that back to my pot and added heat. Meanwhile, I began draining the MT and by the time that was complete, my sparge water was ready (I batch sparge)

Decanted the starter and pitched at 7 am.

Total elapsed time from flame on to pitch was 15 hours
During that time however, Wife and I spent 4.5 hours at the Pub and slept for 6.5 hrs. The duration of the mash was 6.5 hrs. The grain bed dropped to 139 degrees.

We shall find out later how good the beer turns out, but the process for now is one that I plan to repeat again with a Belgian Tripel in a couple of weeks.

It started bubbling away nicely about 7 hrs after pitching.

 

[VonAle]

Forgot to mention, my mash efficiency = 91%. Probably due to the long mash.

 

[VonAle]

Update:
To recap, I pitched at 68 degrees.
At 7 hours, blow off at 2 bubbles / sec and temp = 75 degrees
At 24 hours, same blow off pace, 82 degrees.
At 48 hours, same blow off pace, 82 degrees.

Last night at 60 hours, the blow off had slowed to about 1 bubble / sec, So I decided it was time to pitch the sugar.

I mixed 12 oz table sugar in 12 oz water, boiled 10 min and then while it was cooling, I opened the fermenter. No Krausen, pulled a sample and to my surprise, grav = 1.016. I was happy to know I avoided the dreaded 1.032 stall. Went from 1.058 to 1.016 in 2.5 days. This 565 is treating me well.

I added the sugar syrup and 15 min later, the blow off was back up to 2 bubbles / sec. 2 hours later the temp had increased to 84 degrees.

This morning, blow off slowed to “pre-sugar” pace of about 1 bubble / sec, temp dropped to 82 degrees

At this pace it appears I'll reach my FG sooner rather than later. I was planning on 12 weeks grain to glass, 6 weeks primary, 5 weeks bottle condition at room temp, then 1 week refrigerated.

Anyone care to comment on my 6-5-1 plan ?

 

[VonAle]

Opened up to stir. Gravity is at 1.009

 

[VonAle]

Gravity = 1.006, I think it's about done.

 

[VonAle]

Dry hopped with 1 oz Sorachi Ace for 7 days and bottled last night.

FG = 1.005, 7.6 % Alc. (12) bombers, (5) 16 oz and (25) 12 oz.

Taste is Fruity and sweet and then finishes dry and nicely bitter. I don't really get the lemon from the Sorachi but maybe after it carbs up that will be more evident.

It has that "Belgian" yeast flavor that I wanted, but not the pepper and spice. I hope the bottle time will bring that out.

I washed and saved the yeast, in case I want to brew this again yet this summer.

 

[lewybrewing]

I brew a Sorachi ace Saison that loves the white labs Saison 1 yeast. I always try to have 30 rye in all my saisons to spice it up a little. Your recipe sounds great btw.

 

[VonAle]

I brew a Sorachi ace Saison that loves the white labs Saison 1 yeast. I always try to have 30 rye in all my saisons to spice it up a little. Your recipe sounds great btw.

30 % Rye ?

BTW, tried a couple bottles this week and it's really tasty. The fruit flavor has subsided a bit, carbed nice and a little spice on the finish. It's very dry and refreshing, I like it.

Only problem so far, it's 8% alcohol. Kicks me in the butt.

 

[VonAle]

For those who care, this beer is incredible and getting better. Very easy to drink, except for the 8% alcohol.

 

[skibb]

It has that "Belgian" yeast flavor that I wanted, but not the pepper and spice. I hope the bottle time will bring that out.

WLP565 is my go to saison yeast - what I have learned from brewing with it is that if I want the spices to be there, I have to pitch low - usually around 62 F and keep it at 62-65 F for the first couple days then ramp it up into the mid to high 80s over the course of several days (it usually carries itself up there pretty well on its own). And right now my favorite saison recipe currently uses 25% rye. I feel you need to get around 20% rye to really get any flavor from it...but that could just be my palette.