Safale T-58 low attenuation

[Tancred the Brewer]

Hey all. I brewed a NB White IPA kit a few weeks back. They recommended T-58 as the yeast to provide some of that yeast character for the beer. The packet was fresh and got started right away. It was bubbling along very well within about 8 hours but seemed to finish up after around a total of 48 hours. I know that strain can have an active fermentation so wasn't surprised by the quick start. I let it go for a total of two weeks to allow it time to finish and when I checked the FG it was about 1.023 from a OG of 1.067. Attenuation of 63% is well below what is expected for this yeast. I oxygenated well by stirring which has always worked for me and fermented at 68 degrees. After checking I raised the temp to 72 degrees and there was no change.

Suggestions on what I did wrong? Or did I just get a bum sachet of yeast?

Kind of disappointed as the flavor is a little sweet. Hoping that after dry hopping and carbonating it balances out better. Otherwise it is a fine beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

NB White IPA kit

All grain kit? extract kit with DME? LME?

 

[Tancred the Brewer]

All grain kit? extract kit with DME? LME?

It was the extract kit. LME.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It was the extract kit. LME.

Was it the "Permafrost White IPA Extract Beer Recipe Kit"?

They recommended T-58

... and who is "they"?

 

[Tancred the Brewer]

Was it the "Permafrost White IPA Extract Beer Recipe Kit"?


... and who is "they"?

Yes that is the kit. The "they" is the Northern Brewer kit instructions.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/permafrost-extract-india-white-ale-recipe-kit

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2...IPA-Instructions_Extract_1_-1715282840568.pdf

This caught my eye:

Did you put the recipe into one of the recipe calculators to have it estimate OG/FG?

 

[Tancred the Brewer]

https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/permafrost-extract-india-white-ale-recipe-kit

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2...IPA-Instructions_Extract_1_-1715282840568.pdf

This caught my eye:

View attachment 848384​

Did you put the recipe into one of the recipe calculators to have it estimate OG/FG?

I have not. I was just trusting their calculations. Maybe that is a mistake. So are you thinking those would add a lot of residual unfermentable sugars and leave it a little underattenuated? It does taste a bit sweet though when I tried it during transfer to the keg for dry hopping.

 

[day_trippr]

Wait - NB included two kinds of unmalted wheat in an extract recipe - which has intrinsically zero Lintner rating?
Not being well versed in such matters...what's the point? To turn the beer "white"?

Cheers!

 

[dmtaylor]

I've gotten low attenuation from T-58 before. My solution was to add Belle Saison and let it sit another month. After that the beer turned out quite good.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

FWIW, it appears that the web site and online kit instructions have been updated to replace T-58 with BW-20.

So I'm at a slight disadvantage at this point in the discussion.

However, if you want to "pile on" WRT the kit being from a specific supplier, please take the discussion to "Drunken Ramblings & Mindless Mumbling" Thank you for your understanding.

I was just trusting their calculations. Maybe that is a mistake.

Mistakes in kit recipes happen -- and get corrected over time.

So are you thinking those would add a lot of residual unfermentable sugars and leave it a little underattenuated?

I am.

I don't use T-58, so I'll defer to others who have experience with it.

---

Full disclosure: I don't brew with unmalted wheat or flaked oats. But if I did, I would mash those ingredients.

 

[day_trippr]

Full disclosure: I don't brew with unmalted wheat or flaked oats. But if I did, I would mash those ingredients.

With enough malted grains - or exogenous saccharification enzymes - to actually convert their starches...

Cheers!

 

[lumpher]

I ran it through Brewer's Friend and it should have come out to be around 1.016 FG.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

With enough malted grains - or exogenous saccharification enzymes - to actually convert their starches...

If I were to reformulate the recipe, I would use Palmer's wort 'a' / 'b' approach. Wort 'A' would be 2.5 - 3.0 gal with enough American two row base malt to get into the OG 50 - 60 range plus add the specialty grains. Wort 'b' would target bag sized amounts of DME to get to the recipe OG.

One could also mini-mash: a pound of American two row malt for each pound of specialty malt should get DP to around 70. Mashing for 45 to 60 min starting at around 154 (and sliding down to about 148) should take care of the conversion.

Some "british" and "European" base malts have a lower DP - so the above approach may not work as well (or as quickly) when using these malts.

 

[hotbeer]

Have you ever checked your wort while or after the mash/sparge to see if the starch fully converted? Incomplete conversion to sugar will leave you with starch that will be unfermentable and it will also leave you with a higher SG reading for your FG.

Though I am a little shaky on this. I might be wrong. So maybe someone that fully understands beer making at that level can educate us both a little more.

You can check for starch conversion to sugar by doing a iodine test. Do a test within the first few minutes of mashing so you can see what a bad result looks like. Then you can do another test when your mash time is almost up.

Disregard. Just babbling incoherently!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Have you ever checked your wort while or after the mash/sparge to see if the starch fully converted? Incomplete conversion to sugar will leave you with starch that will be unfermentable and it will also leave you with a higher SG reading for your FG.

The kit is an extract + steep recipe (see #6 for links) and there are no malts with enzymes to make that conversion happen.

See also #5 (T-58 is mentioned in the instructions) and #10 (where I mention that T-58 is no longer in the online instructions that I found in #6).

 

[hotbeer]

The kit is an extract + steep recipe (see #6 for links) and there are no malts with enzymes to make that conversion happen.

See also #5 (T-58 is mentioned in the instructions) and #10 (where I mention that T-58 is no longer in the online instructions that I found in #6).

Yeah, I need to be dope slapped. I remember reading that now and then promptly forgot by the time I got to the end and made my post.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Wait - NB included two kinds of unmalted wheat in an extract recipe - which has intrinsically zero Lintner rating?
Not being well versed in such matters...what's the point? To turn the beer "white"?

Steeping malts that should be (or must be) mashed is a decades old common situation. It shows up in recipe databases as well as in kits.

My best guess is that the kit recipe is typically "good enough" for both the brewer and the provider to have a satisfying business transaction. FWIW, there's some interesting background reading here on business models for online home brew stores.

Rather than "hating on" kits, consider

... writing a "sticky" to help brewers evaluate kits before purchase

... writing a "sticky" on which malts need to be mashed

... writing a "sticky" on converting extract + steep recipes to partial mash

There are more interesting things that could be talked about, rather than trash talking NB, AHA, ...

 

[capt82]

Attenuation of 63% is well below what is expected for this yeast. I oxygenated well by stirring which has always worked for me and fermented at 68 degrees. After checking I raised the temp to 72 degrees and there was no change.

I used T-58 a couple months ago with the same results you described. I stopped using US-5 for this very same reason. I'm not sure what changed as I can say my recipes and techniques didn't. I now use the BE-134 for my go to. It has great AA (at least as of right now) and has not done me wrong.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm not sure what changed as I can say my recipes and techniques didn't.

Have you recently checked the accuracy of your thermometer(s), hydrometer(s), ...

 

[capt82]

Have you recently checked the accuracy of your thermometer(s), hydrometer(s), ...

Yeah. I stopped ordering dry yeast online for unknown temps during transport, I cut back to no more than 5% dark and hard to ferment grains, and I always do starters. I always got great fermentation activity at the start but the US-05 just stopped mid way and didn't finish as did the T-58 a few weeks ago. I never had issues with US-05 as it was my go to for most of my beers.

I just hope Fermentis is not attempting to ditch the cheaper yeast for those new yeast/enzyme (like DA-16) for 3 times the price. Not sure if those are just yeast + nutrient all in one, but I'm not paying $12 for yeast.