Rookie wine experiment

[eadavis80]

I have been brewing beer for over 2 years. My wife showed some interest in possibly getting into wine making. However, making a 6-gallon batch was certainly not something she was interested in doing. She just doesn't drink that much. So, as a very cheap experiment, we put 5 gallons of Welch's 100% grade juice, dissolved 1 pound of corn sugar and pitched rehydrated Red Star Montrachet yeast into a 2-gallon plastic bucket we got at the home brew store. I aerated the juice/sugar mixture prior to pitching. What, if anything, should I expect flavor wise? How long would you keep it in the bucket before transferring to a 1-gallon glass jug? How long would you keep it in the jug? Thanks.

 

[jc5066]

How did you fit 5 gallons of juice in a 2 gallon container?

 

[eadavis80]

Oops - careless Monday morning typo before the first cup of coffee set in. I meant ONE gallon of grape juice, not 5.

 

[DoctorCAD]

It will end up tasting like an alcoholic peanut butter and jelly sandwich, not wine-like at all. I use it as filler wine for topping up other batches.

 

[eadavis80]

That's an interesting prediction.

 

[homebruguru]

this is my recipe, comes out semi sweet. 2 weeks in primary, 1 week in secondary. the cuvee yeast ferments fast and you get between 11 and 12 %ABV. it was dry at transfer into secondary but after a week in the secondary it sweetened up a bit (actually perfect for me). its young, but every bottle I open is better than the last. (I have very little patience lol) definitely no peanut butter and jelly sandwich


3-96 ounce bottles of welchs (concord) grape juice
2-96 ounce bottles of welchs (Niagara) white grape juice
1-96 ounce bottle of motts 100%apple juice
5 cups of sugar
5 tsp of lemon juice
5 tsp of yeast nutrient
1 packet of red star cuvee wine yeast

 

[eadavis80]

this is my recipe, comes out semi sweet. 2 weeks in primary, 1 week in secondary. the cuvee yeast ferments fast and you get between 11 and 12 %ABV. it was dry at transfer into secondary but after a week in the secondary it sweetened up a bit (actually perfect for me). its young, but every bottle I open is better than the last. (I have very little patience lol) definitely no peanut butter and jelly sandwich


3-96 ounce bottles of welchs (concord) grape juice
2-96 ounce bottles of welchs (Niagara) white grape juice
1-96 ounce bottle of motts 100%apple juice
5 cups of sugar
5 tsp of lemon juice
5 tsp of yeast nutrient
1 packet of red star cuvee wine yeast

How many gallons does that make? Sorry - too lazy to do the math.

 

[homebruguru]

5 gallons or 22 bottles out of this batch. make sure you use the juice in the bottles not the frozen concentrate. for some reason with the frozen you get ALOT more of a grape juice flavor not really wine lol . total cost is around $30 for ingredients. that's less than $1.50 a bottle when done.

 

[eadavis80]

Cool - so I could just divide your recipe by 5 to get 1 gallon. Here's hoping my rookie batch produces something decent enough to try your recipe next! I just hope my upstairs is warm enough to ferment wine. Looks like the yeast wants around 70, but my upstairs is only about 66. Think it will ferment? And, I have my 1 gallon of wine in a 2 gallon bucket. Should I expect to see the airlock bubble or, with that amount of headspace, will I not see the airlock move? This being my first 'wine' I just have a lot of fermentation anxiety.

 

[homebruguru]

66 should be fine just maybe a little slower ferment(its amazing what a few degrees does to yeast). its gonna take awhile for the c02 to fill the headspace so don't panic if it doesn't bubble right away. I did a batch with just 1 gallon of juice, no extra sugar added, just opened the bottle, pitched in 1/4 packet of yeast and put an airlock on the bottle and let it go til fermentation quit. it was super sweet (not far off from the original grape juice flavor). did not take any readings but it seemed awful low in alcohol content. the extra sugar sure helps. like my recipe for 5 gallons says I would add 1 cup of sugar per gallon just to boost the abv and dry it out a bit. always remember....yeast+sugar=alcohol lol flavor to taste can come afterwards:rockin:

 

[z-bob]

I made something like that in October. I used 3 gallons of Kirkland juice instead of Welch's, added just a little sugar; I think the initial gravity was 1.085. Fermented with 71B yeast because it reduces acidity a bit. I don't remember if I added any yeast nutrient or tannin; I probably did. I did add some bentonite clarifier (because I had some) to the primary at the beginning.

Racked to a carboy after a week or two -- 71B is not a yeast you want to let sit on the bottom for long. It was ready to bottle about a month after that. (that's the beauty of keeping the gravity kind of low) I think it tastes pretty good.

 

[eadavis80]

My OG was 1.103, so this could end up around 12-13%. Should I expect FG to be below 1.000 when it's done?

 

[DoctorCAD]

It should go well below 1.000. There's nothing but sugar in there for the yeast to eat, no solids or tannins or skins or etc.

You could easily hit .996 and I've seen welches wine go to .992. Rocket fuel!

 

[eadavis80]

Well, I took a gravity reading today - one week after pitching. The airlock was still moving here and there, but NB said I could go ahead and take a reading. It's down to 1.024, so I'm already sitting at 10.4% ABV It tasted and smelled good. It might dry out some more in the next week, but I don't really care if it does nor not. Most importantly, I made my wife's day on Valentine's Day as she actually really enjoyed the gravity sample. She lit up and said, "It's really good!" Now, she's a bigger wine fan than beer fan, but even on a beer that's been in the bottle for a month, the best I usually get is an "it's okay." But, a gravity sample put a bona fide smile on her face! I'm pretty pleased with the low rent experiment.

 

[eadavis80]

Well, I took another gravity sample and now it's down to 1.000 even. However, it's not nearly as much to my wife's liking as it was 5 days ago when gravity was only at 1.024. IT was obviously a lot fruitier then - now it's a lot more dry. So, my question is I want to get a "wine" to FINISH around where it was last week - high FG and a lot more sweet, would I be better off to use an ALE YEAST which is less alcohol tolerant? If I used 05 would that leave the same ingredients at a higher FG, thus a sweeter wine, thus a smile on my wife's face, instead of the face of near disgust I was faced with this evening. Soooo disappointing because last gravity sample she was so pleased and already talking about batch no 2. Now she questions if she even wants me to bottle batch no.1

 

[z-bob]

1) Try adding a sugar cube (just one) to a glass of it. Muddle it with a little of the wine, then pour the rest.

2) Try using Epernay II yeast next time, Red Star calls it "Côte des Blancs".

That's all I got.

 

[eadavis80]

1) Try adding a sugar cube (just one) to a glass of it. Muddle it with a little of the wine, then pour the rest.

2) Try using Epernay II yeast next time, Red Star calls it "Côte des Blancs".

That's all I got.

Will that Epernay II wine yeast leave a sweeter wine?

I'll try the sugar addition and see what happens.

Maybe it will mellow out some? I will rack it to secondary tomorrow and let it sit there 3-4 weeks. I am thinking time can't HURT it any. Just bummed that it fermented out soooo dry, and more importantly - the wife is bummed. She really liked it when it was at 1.024... not so much a fan of 1.000...

 

[homebruguru]

how big is this batch? gallon wise. when I do 5 gallons I ferment til dry then rack into secondary. once in the secondary I add 2.5 tsp of potassium sorbate to stop or (stabilize) the yeast. give it a stir and let it sit for 24 hrs. after 24 hrs you can backsweeten with whatever u want (slenda, fruit juice or more sugar). I cant stress enough to add a little at a time and taste as you go til you get it ALMOST where you want it. time in the bottle will condition it (as little as a week) try a bottle each week and youll see the difference. when I make say 5 gallons of red wine I use 1 can of welchs grape juice concentrate (in the pop can) not the frozen and it comes out semi sweet (that's the way I like it)and it doesn't dilute it. of course everyones taste is different

 

[eadavis80]

how big is this batch? gallon wise. when I do 5 gallons I ferment til dry then rack into secondary. once in the secondary I add 2.5 tsp of potassium sorbate to stop or (stabilize) the yeast. give it a stir and let it sit for 24 hrs. after 24 hrs you can backsweeten with whatever u want (slenda, fruit juice or more sugar). I cant stress enough to add a little at a time and taste as you go til you get it ALMOST where you want it. time in the bottle will condition it (as little as a week) try a bottle each week and youll see the difference. when I make say 5 gallons of red wine I use 1 can of welchs grape juice concentrate (in the pop can) not the frozen and it comes out semi sweet (that's the way I like it)and it doesn't dilute it. of course everyones taste is different

The batch is one gallon.
So, you're saying if it's been in primary 2 weeks (today is my 2-week mark) today I should add some (how much if it's 1-gallon potassium sorbate to stop (or stabilize) the yeast to my primary.
Let it sit another 24 hours in primary.
After that, rack to secondary and add some sugar or juice to sweeten to taste.
Since I added the potassium sorbate, that sugar will NOT ferment, thus the gravity will actually RISE and give me the sweeter beer (higher FG) I enjoyed at my 1-week mark (when the wine was 1.024).
Dumb question - next time I do this, if the wine tastes good and is at 1.024, could I just add the potassium sorbate THEN to stop fermentation and then I would not have to "backsweeten"?
Thanks again.

 

[eadavis80]

I added the campden tablet and potassium sorbate yesterday to kill the yeast and prevent further fermentation. I racked to secondary. One thing I found really odd is I only have about 1/2 gallon of wine. I started with a 128-ounce bottle of juice and added some sugar water as well. We did take 2 gravity samples - probably about 7 ounces each, but that's still not making up the difference. There was maybe 1/2" of yeast sediment at the bottom of the bucket. Where did the rest of my wine go?! In any event, this is my first "wine" so this is all just an experiment. Would you backsweeten with a sugar solution to taste, so grape juice or some thawed grape juice concentrate like from the frozen isle at the grocery store? Or just mix whatever until I like the taste...

 

[eadavis80]

Well, I read something online that said you could backsweeten with 2 parts sugar and 1 part water. So, I boiled 2 cups of table sugar into 1 cup of water. After it cooled, it was a VERY THICK syrup - basically the same (or maybe even thicker) than LME is. Fearful it would "glop" and result in a weird consistency in the wine, I added a tiny bit more water and reheated and stirred it until it was a little thinner.I then added to taste. However, this was tricky as I only - for some unknown reason - only netted about 1/2 gallon of wine even though I started with 128 ounces of grape juice + sugar solution. Yes, I did take 2 6-7 ounce gravity samples along the way, but I still don't understand how the volume dropped so substantially. Anyway, I'd add the sugar syrupy solution to the 32 ounces of wine, stir a bit and then pour like 1 ounce to sample. I didn't want to pour more than that for fear I'd only end up with like 1 bottle of wine. This was my first experience in "wine" making and I'm sure I'm making mistakes, but I am learning a lot. Next time I'll start with a bigger volume and try backsweetening with thawed grape concentrate. I just tried table sugar this time around because it's what I had on hand. Do you think the syrup I added will "reglop" and result in a repulsive texture/feel to the "wine"? The good news is I guess I successfully killed and stabilized the yeast because I don't see any new fermentation this morning. I added the campden tablet and potassium sorbate over 24 hours before adding the sugar syrup solution yesterday.

 

[homebruguru]

i had the same experience with a one gallon batch I made from frozen concentrate, seems like half of it evaporated. I use straight juice now and don't have a problem with that.

 

[eadavis80]

That's the thing - my 1 gallon batch was made from JUICE, not concentrate. I had 128 ounces of juice to start. I understand losing maybe 16 ounces to gravity samples and maybe another 6 or so ounces due to the yeast, but I'm still confused. Whatever - as long as I learn along the way, that's all that matters. I don't honestly expect much on this batch. I'm just trying to come away with a process I'm confident in.

 

[z-bob]

Maybe someone was taking samples along the way.

 

[eadavis80]

z-bob - I appreciate the witty humor, but I'd bet all my homebrew supplies I took 2 - AND ONLY 2 - gravity samples of the wine which totaled no more than 14 ounces. I took one a week after pitching the yeast and a second five days later. In any event, whatever - I'm just hoping it results it at least a semi-drinkable product that is the product of much learning.

 

[eadavis80]

Probably a dumb question, but since I only have a 1/2 gallon in my 1 gallon jug, will this wine be totally oxidized with all that headspace? Should I just deal with it, or should I "top up" with grape juice and then dilute the wine? It would no longer be the 13.5% ABV it was, right? It would drop to like 7% if about half of the volume was just grape juice, right? In all honesty, I don't care about the ABV as much as I do flavor.

 

[z-bob]

i have no idea what you're doing anymore; I can't follow it.

If you've added the sorbate, transfer what you have into bottles; it's done.

 

[devilsbeltbrewing]

99% of the time all welches juice has persertives (Sorbate) in it so it cant go through fermentation during shelf life. in this case you will end up where you started with plain grape juice. Also it wont taste like a sandwich it will pick up notes of concord grape flavors just like a concord grape. best thing is to use wine grapes or juice they have more fermentable sugars and more of a complex flavor offering.

 

[homebruguru]

While I agree about the sorbates (read the label) and make sure you buy %100 juice from concentrate. it is very possible to make a decent table wine from welchs juice. theres a big difference in ingredients in their $1.00 a can frozen concentrate and the $2.50 a can frozen concentrate from welchs at walmart. read read read the label!! I personally use the bottles of %100 grape juice, its pricey at $3.98 for 96 ounces but the ONLY preservative it has in it is ascorbic acid which is a natural source of vitamin c and a natural preservative that helps fruits from over ripening.

In a nutshell: sorbate anything...BAD! ascorbic acid.....GOOD!

 

[eadavis80]

Can I rack my wine if it's at 1.000 or should I wait for it to get below that number? Two days ago it was at 1.002.

 

[TenForward]

99% of the time all welches juice has persertives (Sorbate) in it so it cant go through fermentation during shelf life. in this case you will end up where you started with plain grape juice. Also it wont taste like a sandwich it will pick up notes of concord grape flavors just like a concord grape. best thing is to use wine grapes or juice they have more fermentable sugars and more of a complex flavor offering.

"Q. Do Welch's juice products contain preservatives?

Welch’s ready-to-drink 100% Grape Juice and juice cocktails do not contain any preservatives. However, Welch’s ready-to-drink 100% White Grape Juice does contain the preservative potassium metabisulfite, which is added to prevent browning and maintain color. Welch’s 100% Sparkling Juices and Sparkling Juice Cocktails also contain potassium metabisulfite, as well as the preservative sodium benzoate. Many of our frozen concentrates and shelf stable concentrates contain sulfites to maintain flavor and color."
http://www.welchs.com/about-us/contact-us/frequently-asked-questions/product-faq#2

 

[buMbLeB]

"Q. Do Welch's juice products contain preservatives?

Welch’s ready-to-drink 100% Grape Juice and juice cocktails do not contain any preservatives. However, Welch’s ready-to-drink 100% White Grape Juice does contain the preservative potassium metabisulfite, which is added to prevent browning and maintain color. Welch’s 100% Sparkling Juices and Sparkling Juice Cocktails also contain potassium metabisulfite, as well as the preservative sodium benzoate. Many of our frozen concentrates and shelf stable concentrates contain sulfites to maintain flavor and color."
http://www.welchs.com/about-us/contact-us/frequently-asked-questions/product-faq#2

Just confirming that the concord grape juice is preservative-free aside from ascorbic acid (vitamin C). Also, I've made a very nice wine from the White Grape juice just by airing it out under a paper towel for a few hours with shaking beforehand - Yooper explained to me that the K-meta won't really inhibit the yeast, but I think it's a different story with sodium benzoate.

 

[eadavis80]

I'll ask again...

Can I rack my wine if it's at 1.000 or should I wait for it to get below that number? Two days ago it was at 1.002.

 

[Wooden]

Yooper has a recipe for Welch's grape juice wine.

I know it is important to a) make sure it does not have preservatives besides citric acid, and b) adjust expectations accordingly. It will not taste like a Cab or Merlot obviously.

However, I have heard it can be very good, just very different from what you would normally expect a red wine to taste like. I wouldn't expect a ton of complexity. Concord grapes have a flavor all of their own.

Yooper likens her Welch's wine as having a "Mogen David"-like taste. I would search the forum for her recipe and see how yours compares. There's a few others on here too.

It is important she understand this will be much different so she does not get discouraged from winemaking when this comes out to taste very "different".

Alternatively, it is increasingly common to see 1 gallon and 3 gallon batches. That could be a good size to start out with. I have also heard of others using say a cheap 6 gallon kit, and making some adjustments to make a 5 gallon kit of higher quality; perhaps you could do something like that with a 3 gallon kit to make a killer wine that would fit in your bucket for a primary.

Keep in mind though you will want to have a secondary to rack to; a carboy of sorts. I know there are big glass gallon wine jugs that you could buy, drink and use as a secondary fermenter, or buy them at your LHBS for about $5.

Also, if you want to a bigger primarily fermenter for a 3 gallon batch that you would ultimately use need a 3 gal carboy for, you could use 4 gal plastic food grade buckets from the local supermarket Bakery dept. as a primary. These are the Donut Glaze, Chocolate Frosting or Bavarian Creme filling buckets.

Often times they will give them away for free, or charge like $2 for including a lid, reasonably clean and they are of very good quality. I use these for sap buckets for male syrup and as a primary for what will end up being a 3 gal batch of wine in my secondary. To make a hole for the air lock you can just drill a hole and use a rubber grommet (about 25 cents at LHBS) and boom you're ready.

Cheers,

Wooden