Roeselare in high OG wort

[bunt1828]

I posted this in the Fermentation and Yeast section, but I wanted to post here as well..

I'm planning to brew a Westvleteren 12 clone (OG = 1.090) with 5 gallons getting the WLP530/Wyeast 3787 and the other 5 getting soured. I'm planning to use Wyeast Roeselare for the sour, and I read that if you want it to be sour in a reasonable amount of time (12-18mos?) you should pitch Roeselare as primary rather than a secondary strain(s)

My question is, will it be able to ferment that high gravity down to 1.015-1.020 before the PH drops too low for the sacc to continue on? I'm guessing that it won't, so I think my plan will be to pitch the clean yeast into both, then once the gravity gets closer to 1.050 toss in the Roes.

My second question is, if I pitch Roes. as primary yeast, should I avoid oxygenating?

I've never used Roeselare (or any other souring yeast for that matter) so I'm not sure what to expect. I'd love any suggestions.

Thanks!

 

[Calder]

Pitch the Roeselare as primary. No starter, aerate the wort.

With no starter, the bugs should get a couple of days head start on the yeast. The yeast could take a few days to show signs of fermentation.

Don't worry about the PH; it will not get that low that quickly.

 

[bunt1828]

Do you think one pack has enough sacc to keep from getting stuck? I know it works fine for beers in the 1.050 range but haven't seen anything where people have tried with almost double that amount of sugar.. I suppose if it does stall, I could rack the whole thing onto the cake of the other 5 gal once it's done..

 

[Arrheinous]

You've got sacc, brett, lacto, and pedio and each has its own pH/ABV tolerances. Between all of those I think Roeselare can get the job done. Brett and pedio will finish up the beer if the sacc gives up too early.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Or pitch two packs. Probably still a massive underpitch, but double your chances, perhaps.

 

[davejanssen]

I would pitch multiple packs or grow up the yeast a bit. I know you'll have different growth rates and maybe a drift in the culture ratios but 1 pack will be a massive underpitch. I don't know about the Roeselare blend but I've had good results splitting ECY02 flemish red blend and growing up to appropriate pitch sizes. The beer came out tart enough and if I changed the ratios of microbes it doesn't seem to have been a problem.

Brett and lacto can handle alcohol that high but you still want to increase your chances of success by introducing a proper amount of bugs. As mentioned above you'll still want to oxygenate. The sacch and brett in Roeselare will use up the O2 and it won't hurt the other stuff in there.

 

[Arrheinous]

You could pitch the single pack without adding all the sugar, wait for fermentation to get underway, and then add the sugar so your initial few days of fermentation are like a starter.

 

[bunt1828]

Lots of good ideas. One thing I had considered was fermenting part of it (2.5-4gal) with the clean stuff, then cold crashing and racking onto the rest (still unfermented) and pitching the roeselare at that point. That way the "new OG" is certainly do-able, but still has enough easy fermentabes for the roes. to get sour and funky. However, I'm a lazy dude and pitching 2 packs of roeselare and calling it good sounds pretty appealing...

 

[smokinghole]

I'd go the lazy route and just direct pitch one pack. Life will find its way and the beer will ferment. It won't stall and who cares about the sacch population. To me sours are keep it simple I'm good at it and I'm lazy at it, my favorite combo. Notice I never comment on brewing a great pilsner. That requires more technical effort than I am willing to put forth when I can get a sixtel of awesome pils for $25 at work (employee discount).

 

[Calder]

The beer will take a long time whichever way you do it, but it will probably finish quickest if you straight pitch a single pack with no starter. I realise this goes against everything you know about brewing beer.

Pitch a single pack which is very low in sacc will give the bugs a few days to build up their colonies before the yeast starts making alcohol. This gets you a lot closer to a sour beer than getting a quick start with sacc, making alcohol quick, which really slows down the growth of the bugs.

A starter disproportionatly grows the sacc, slowing down the bugs.

Either way you are looking at at least a year.

 

[bunt1828]

Here is the feedback from the helpful folks at Wyeast:

Considering this is going to be a long term beer, I would go with one Activator. The acid level should not be so high that it will inhibit the yeasts' ability to finish it out (Brettanomyces will do fine in a lower pH environment). No O2 necessary for the wort pitched with this blend.

I recommend using the blend from the start for faster flavor development.



So a lot like what was suggested here.. I bought two packs with the plan of pitching both, but I suppose one will be fine - maybe I'll pitch the other in the extra 5 gallons of brown ale I've got... As for 02, I'll probably give the carboy a little shake just because for some reason it will give me a warm-fuzzy (completely un-merited, but.. whatever).

Looking forward to this experiment. I'll report back (next year?) with my results.

 

[Arrheinous]

Jolly Pumpkin sour dregs are said to ferment pure water.

Plan B you toss some in if the Roeselare peters out.

 

[TAK]

For those here that suggested O2, I'm curious what your reasoning is and/or what your experiences with this have been? Since the post above quotes Wyeast saying it's not needed.

I definitely wouldn't, by default, put users' advice behind supplier's advice. Does the O2 accentuate acedic acid production, giving what appearantly is a blend notorious for not being sour enough first time around a leg up?

 

[Calder]

For those here that suggested O2, I'm curious what your reasoning is and/or what your experiences with this have been? Since the post above quotes Wyeast saying it's not needed.

I definitely wouldn't, by default, put users' advice behind supplier's advice. Does the O2 accentuate acedic acid production, giving what appearantly is a blend notorious for not being sour enough first time around a leg up?

I think the thought behind aerating (and I agree with it), is that the sacc in the Roeselare needs it to build up a decent colony. You are already severely under pitching, and without O2, you will have a very low yeast count.

Maybe the idea is to keep the yeast low, to get the bugs get working early = earlier souring.

 

[bunt1828]

Update: Roeselare is a beast apparently. I pitched one packet on 10/29 into 5.5gallons of 1.085sg wort. I had to move my clean Quad into a secondary to make room for today's brew so I went ahead and checked the sour version with the thought that if it was struggling I'd toss in some of the yeast from the clean version. No need - after just 1.5 weeks the sucker is already at 1.020!!. Clean version is at 1.016 and had a 2 day head start... I'm still getting semi-frequent bubbling from the sour so I have no doubts this guy will finish super dry.


Sample was great too. not too sour yet, but you can tell it's got bugs in it. It's got a nice cherry flavor to it that the clean version didn't have. I understand that this is by no means close to what the final beer will taste like. But it's showing a lot of promise..

I think this was certainly the right call. Thanks for all the input!

 

[bunt1828]

May also be worth mentioning that my mash was 90min and lost more heat than usual dropping from 152 to 146. So it was a super fermentable wort to start with. I also fermented in my ferm chamber with the clean version, so it was kinda forced to follow the same fermentation temperature ramp which started at 65*F and ramped up to 80/81 over 6 days - I allowed it to increase 1-2*F every 12 hours, and had to apply a little heat about halfway through to get it up above 74. Not sure if that's the ideal thing to do, but it worked and I didn't detect any of the off flavors that you would associate with high ferm temps in the sample..

 

[bunt1828]

Another Update: I pulled my 3rd sample today 7.5 months into this sucker. The gravity is down to 1.008, so that's great. However, I'm pretty bummed about the lack of acidity - the pH is sitting at 4.1. It has no sour taste or smell, and the lovely cherry flavor it once had is long gone. At this point it's just a dry quad (not that that's a bad thing, just not what I was hoping for).

I think I'll probably add some pedio and see if that helps.