RIS questions

[prohl84]

I am planning on making a big Russian Imperial Stout soon. If I could find a good AG Founder's RIS clone I might start there. Really what I want is that dark, mocha-esque head and I was wondering if anybody had any suggestions as to what malts/ adjuncts I might use to achieve this.

Here's a quick recipe I whipped up in Beersmith (for 6.5 gal) LHBS only has carafa I otherwise I would use 'III' thus the patent malt. Is it the patent malt/ carafa that create darker head? I know roasted barley yields that characteristic creamy white which Irish stouts are known for. I know it is a long bill but Founders purportedly uses 10 malts in their RIS.

18# 2 row
1.5# C 40
1# C 20
.75# Chocolate malt
.75# Carafa I
.5# Black patent
.5# Roasted Barley
.25# Smoked malt

Here is a random internet pic of exactly what I am looking for:

 

[solbes]

Wow, that is dark. I made a 1.105 RIS that finished at 12% and the head is dark. But not that dark (or big). I used 1# of RB, 0.5# of Chocolate, 0.5 # of Special B, and 0.5 # of C80. So I would guess Black Patent and Carafa I would give a darker colored head than what I used.

No problem using a large grain bill in an RIS, IMO. If it were me, I'd drop some of the C20 and C40. You will have plenty of unfermentables in there, and you don't want it to finish too high. Maybe eliminate C20 altogether (will likely be waaaay in the background anyway) and stick with C40 only. Or go 0.75 lb C40 and 0.5 lb Special B for a little dark raisin flavor.

And I would sub some or all of your 2row with Maris Otter. Really delicious stuff in an RIS, and well worth the splurge on an expensive brew.

 

[prohl84]

I definitely considered using MO instead of the 2 row; I might do that. Also I think I will change the crystal malts to 90 and 120 for more raisin/ date flavors rather than caramel.

Also wrangling some yeast from their (Founders) breakfast stout.

Anybody think I should use more than .25# smoked malt? Never having used any before I feel like I could go a little heavier w/o having it dominate- I want to taste it but not much more than that.

 

[motorneuron]

When you say smoked malt, I assume you mean something American or German, and not peated, right? If it's rauchmaltz or something made by an American maltster, then yeah, a quarter pound is a good place to start if you just want a little accent, although it might not be enough in such a big, dark beer. You can adjust once the beer has fermented--liquid smoke is an easy way to do that, or you can steep additional smoked grain and add the resulting juice (boiled) to the primary, or even at bottling, until you get the smokiness you want.

If it's peated, I'd say 4 oz is ballpark correct, though I would use less (as in zero); but that's personal preference.

Agree on changing to darker crystals. The 20 will be almost totally lost. As for the total amount of crystal, that depends somewhat on your yeast and your target FG. If you are using a very attenuative yeast and/or don't mind a somewhat sweeter result, 2.5 pounds of crystal seems fine to me. What is the calculated OG for this recipe? And do you know anything about the Founders yeast?

 

[prohl84]

When you say smoked malt, I assume you mean something American or German, and not peated, right?

Agree on changing to darker crystals. The 20 will be almost totally lost. As for the total amount of crystal, that depends somewhat on your yeast and your target FG. If you are using a very attenuative yeast and/or don't mind a somewhat sweeter result, 2.5 pounds of crystal seems fine to me. What is the calculated OG for this recipe? And do you know anything about the Founders yeast?

It is Briess' cherry smoked malt. I am thinking of going 8 oz. since it is a malt bomb.

est. OG 1.090-1.100 (70-78% efficiency)

Yeast is nothing fancy, just wlp 001 or 1056 according to the BYO breakfast stout article and hearsay from this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/culturing-founders-yeast-143818/

I figured I would try to my hand at wrangling bottle yeast. Now that I know it is wlp001 I might just use Sierra Nevada - pretty sure that is what they use. And the beer is cheaper.

I think I am going 1.25# C 90 and .75# Special B (Dingeman's 145-50)

Hopping w/ Warrior to 65 IBU or so.

 

[motorneuron]

Yeah, you're better off not culturing from something strong. Then again, you're probably better off not culturing at all if it's something basic; there won't be much difference between a house strain and what you can get from Wyeast or White Labs. But I understand the fun of the challenge!

I used a pound of Special B in a recent RIS and liked the results. But just be aware that with 2 pounds of crystal, you will probably want to mash rather low (high 140s even) to stave off the dreaded "I'm stuck at 1.040" thread. (I think that's the biggest pitfall with this style.)

Also, have you made a beer this big before? Efficiency is much harder to hit with a huge grain bill; plan on gathering much more liquid and doing a longer boil to get the same efficiency as a normal-strength batch.

Warrior is a good choice. 65 IBUs could even be a touch low with the gravity that high, since you will want to age this thing for a while and the bitterness will fade. It's hard to say in advance, however, since the optimal IBU level will depend in part on the FG (that is, the balance will be determined in part by sweetness).

Good luck! I think RIS is a rewarding style--there's many different ways to get it right.

 

[prohl84]

I have only made one beer this strong and it happened to be a 2 gal BIAB clone of the breakfast stout. I was novice as hell back then (I think that was my 2nd AG batch) so I failed to record what my mash temp actually was even though I was aiming at 155F. I ended up boiling off too much wort and ended up w/ a gravity of 1.200 or something ridiculous! I diluted to around 1.100 and it fermented out to 1.026 with S-04- tasted great, fairly accurate.

As for the yeast- since it's only chico I think I will just throw 2-3 packs of US 05 in to guarantee a high pitch rate. I will save the bottle wrangling for a dry 1.050 or so beer that I won't be worried about fermenting out- or maybe for something other than chico.

I may mash at 152 and go for 75 minutes instead of my usual 60.

As for IBUs you're right 75-80 would be more balanced and I am going to add some mountain mint which is pungent as hell and I know it will contribute some bitter. I steeped some once in Founders RIS to make sure it would be delicious and it is! Tried it in a dry, robust porter too- not as good.

 

[prohl84]

Here is the revised recipe with method:

Batch: 6.5 gallons
Est OG: 1.090-1.100
Est FG: 1.020-1.028
IBU: 70 ish
Yeast: US 05- 3 packs, no starter

18# Maris Otter- 80%
1.25# C 90- 5.6%
.75# Special B (Dingeman's 145)- 3.3%
.75# Carafa I- 3.3%
.75# Chocolate malt- 3.3%
.5# Smoked Malt- 2.2%
.25# Black Patent- 1.1%
.25# Roasted Barley- 1.1%

Single Infusion: 152F for 75 minutes- medium stiff: 30 qt for 1.333 qt/ lb.
Batch sparge: 175F 2 steps 3.25 gal
First Wort Hop: 1.5 oz. Warrior (18.4% AA)
Boil 75 min
30 min: .5 oz. Warrior
Steep: 1/2 Cup Mountain Mint

Ferment @ 68F for a month or until nearing FG
transfer onto oak spiral, age 12 weeks.

so the crystal malts total 8.9% of the grist. I am fairly new to recipe formulation but I thought 10-15% crystal was a good percentage? Does this not hold as much truth for higher bodied beers especially considering another 11% of my grist is specialty malt too?

 

[solbes]

I have to say that looks really good. If you like a roasty RIS, maybe up the Roasted Barley up another 0.25 -.5 lbs. If not, leave it as is.

2 # of crystal should work very well. The Carafa, Chocolate, BP, and RB will add unfermentables also. You don't want to be higher than 1.030 for a FG.

 

[prohl84]

Bought my grains today. LHBS did not have Carafa so I used dingemans de bittered black instead. dropped to .25# smoked and raised the roasted to .5# salivating for it already.... drinking a SA Imperial Stout pretty good. Got the MO in a sack to save some $$$ (My first bulk buy!)

 

[solbes]

A sack of Maris Otter will do verrrrry nicely. Can make so many excellent beers with it. I might do the same the next time I buy a sack. Though I have 1.2 bags of Rahr 2row to use up first.

 

[prohl84]

Gonna make SWMBO a hoppy amber. Might do a few SMaSH brews or two malt brews in order to really familiarize myself with different specialties as well as taking the opportunity to familiarize myself with different hop varieties. Some of the NZ hops I just read about sound awesome.

I may get a bag of Munich/ Pilsen next wash rinse repeat.

BTW: Thank you both for the helpful input- I know this one's gonna turn out delicious! I will post an update after brewday.

 

[solbes]

Those sound delicious. Maris would be great for SMaSH so you can single out its characteristics. I looked back through my notes and saw the 4 beer series where I used Maris. An english bitter, a brown ale, an irish red, and the RIS. All of them had a very pleasing malty, sorta bready, extra-something that is not present when I use regular 2 row or even pale malt.

Another malt to try sometime if you haven't already is Golden Promise, said to be Scotland's answer to Maris Otter. I used GP in a Wee Heavy, a Surly Furious IPA clone, and a Scottish 60 schilling. Also another great malt.

 

[prohl84]

All of them had a very pleasing malty, sorta bready, extra-something that is not present when I use regular 2 row or even pale malt.

Another malt to try sometime if you haven't already is Golden Promise, said to be Scotland's answer to Maris Otter. I used GP in a Wee Heavy, a Surly Furious IPA clone, and a Scottish 60 schilling. Also another great malt.

Yes! I love more assertive base malts- my first AG was 1 gal BIAB Munich/ Tettnang SMaSH IPA. It tasted almost like an overhopped- too dark Czech Pils I could not believe how complex Munich was by itself: sweet to mildy toasted bread. GP is for sure on my list also- not sure my LHBS can get it.

 

[prohl84]

Update: I brewed this on Tuesday and I ended up with a SG of only 1.076 which is around 60% efficiency so I should have followed motorneuron's advice a little more closely- I boiled for 75 should I have gone for more like 90- 120? I might add a little bit of Sucanat or Turbinado but as it stands it should end around 8.5% which is still a fairly hearty brew. I ran a second sparge and got another 2.75 gallons of SG: 1.050 stout so I will end up with plenty of good beer.

EDIT: I mashed at 150 instead of 152 as planned. I always seem to take a hit to efficiency when I mash low even for 75 min. should I mash even longer on beer with this much unfermentable grain?

 

[motorneuron]

1.076 is still going to give you a big beer. I think I would probably go ahead and add the sugar if I were you--more fun!

But yeah, it's tough to hit your usual efficiencies with a big grain bill. When I did an RIS, I used the second runnings to make a more sessionable stout too.

Not sure how the mash temperature affects efficiency. In my experience, the "long and low" approach works well for big beers. The principal challenge seems to be collecting enough wort (and boil down long enough) to actually get the gravity you want.

 

[prohl84]

Update: I did add the 2# Sucanat sugar on Friday and she almost went off like a volcano. Airlock stopped Sunday... took a reading this evening SG 1.012! Gonna transfer half to oak for a few weeks.

Also forgot to mention that I added 10g Chinese Licorice root (very sweet) I swear now that I know what it tastes like- licorice is likely a 'secret' ingredient in Founder's RIS.

Tastes delicious- a tad boozy (I guess it is 10% alcohol) but the oak aging will knock it back considerably. I maybe would go 6-8 oz smoked malt next time the dark malts still dominate with room to spare but smokiness is still detectable.

 

[solbes]

The roasty note from thet dark malts will fade over time. Likely by the time this brew peaks between 8 and 12 months, the roast will still be evident but much more subdued. Sounds like a great brew!

 

[prohl84]

Definitely making another IS two or three brews from now- I frequently drink IS and so does my neighbor. I need to start kegging.... running out of bomber bottles; quarts all full.

 

[prohl84]

Update if either of you guys are still following thread. Three weeks in bottle and it tastes delicious! It is not completely carb'd- I only went for 2.2 vols forgetting that it's going to escape gradually as I age it. Fortunately I am oaking half and I won't make the same mistake on that portion.

The smoked malt is pretty squashed by the dark caramel malts but it's in there. I will use 8 oz. instead of 4 next time doubling it will be not too much. I think the 10 g black licorice I added may be a tad too much and I will reduce that by half next time; considering this finished well below my estimated FG- 1.011 instead of 1.020ish the added sweetness is not a problem. Finally, even though I added a whole 2# Sucanat sugar I do not detect any wine-y or sherry flavors at all- good body and full malt flavor are there with an added something I know can only have come from raw, dark brown sugar... so sucanat will also be going into the next iteration probably only a half pound this time.

Next time: thinner (step?) mash and longer boil- 145 min. for better extraction. Hopefully negate the need for added sugar. It will be even better w/o it I am certain.

Again- Thanks for your help

 

[solbes]

Sounds awesome. Your modifications sound perfect based on your results.

I lost track of how many I still have left, but it should be more than 24. Probably start a new batch in the spring, or possibly next fall. I will probably oak mine more next time as that faded a bit. And maybe up the roasted barley a tidge as well.

 

[SpeedYellow]

....

The smoked malt is pretty squashed by the dark caramel malts but it's in there. I will use 8 oz. instead of 4 next time doubling it will be not too much.

That's definitely not the smoked malt you're tasting. Briess at 1-2% in a stout will contribute absolutely nothing. Last time I used Briess smoked was at 20% in a Helles, and my friends didn't believe I used any smoked malt. So using smoked malt in a stout, you need to start at 15% and go up from there.

 

[sikkingj]

Update if either of you guys are still following thread. Three weeks in bottle and it tastes delicious! It is not completely carb'd- I only went for 2.2 vols forgetting that it's going to escape gradually as I age it. Fortunately I am oaking half and I won't make the same mistake on that portion. The smoked malt is pretty squashed by the dark caramel malts but it's in there. I will use 8 oz. instead of 4 next time doubling it will be not too much. I think the 10 g black licorice I added may be a tad too much and I will reduce that by half next time; considering this finished well below my estimated FG- 1.011 instead of 1.020ish the added sweetness is not a problem. Finally, even though I added a whole 2# Sucanat sugar I do not detect any wine-y or sherry flavors at all- good body and full malt flavor are there with an added something I know can only have come from raw, dark brown sugar... so sucanat will also be going into the next iteration probably only a half pound this time. Next time: thinner (step?) mash and longer boil- 145 min. for better extraction. Hopefully negate the need for added sugar. It will be even better w/o it I am certain. Again- Thanks for your help

As it is getting into stout time again, I'm curious, what is the updated recipe - I did not notice the sugars in the revised recipe on this page of the thread.

 

[prohl84]

That's definitely not the smoked malt you're tasting. Briess at 1-2% in a stout will contribute absolutely nothing. Last time I used Briess smoked was at 20% in a Helles, and my friends didn't believe I used any smoked malt. So using smoked malt in a stout, you need to start at 15% and go up from there.

While I do agree that it contributed almost (not absolutely) nothing I must disagree about not tasting it. I do know what campfire tastes like compared to the perceivable smokiness that comes from black malt, carafa, roasted etc... even if the difference is subtle.

I sincerely appreciate your input but I am not going to tell you what you are or are not tasting in a beer I have never tasted. Admittedly all of the smoke flavor comes through in my burps though not when drinking it.

If you're in the Toledo are anytime in the near future I will gladly share a few pints and discuss the finer points of brew design. Really that's an open invitation for anyone in the area or passing through... I will drink and talk beer any chance I get with just about anybody who feels inclined to do likewise.

sikkingj- I will post back when I reconstruct my recipe... got two screaming children behind me. The joys of being a stay at home dad.

Oh and tomorrow is International Stout Day!

 

[prohl84]

Imperial Stout

Specs:
6.5 Gallons
OG: 1.095
FG: 1.017
IBU: 82
ABV: 10.4%

Grist:
18.5# Maris Otter 76.3%
1.24# Smoked Malt (Briess) 5.2%
.75# Special B (Dingeman’s) 3.1%
.75# C 120 3.1%
.75# C 90 3.1%
.75# Roasted B 3.1%
.5# Carafa I 2.1%
.25# Black Patent 1%

Mash: 1.28 qt./ lb. (30 qt.) for 60 min. @ 152*F

1.5 oz. Nugget- First Wort 52 IBU
Sparge: 4.25 gal. 170*F
Collect 8.5 gallons (assuming a boil off rate of .6 gal/ hr.)
Boil 150 minutes

60 minutes:
1 oz. Nugget 30 IBU


10 minutes:
.75# Turbinado 3.1%
5 g ground Chinese Black Licorice Root

Possible FO addition: 3-5g Mountain Mint (Pycnanthemum spp.)
Chill and pitch a healthy qty. of US- 05 ferment 60-65*F for 2-3 weeks in primary Oak age for 2-3 months (I will likely bottle half and age half at this point) If I aged the whole batch I would probably only do 1 week primary.

I think that about covers it. I am still hesitant to go 15% on that smoked malt SpeedYellow.:fro:

EDIT: This is a deep, sweet Impy... if you like hyper roasty I would up the roasted and maybe throw in .5# or more choc malt.
EDIT again: I was sipping on the 2nd runnings porter from this recipe and realized I wrote in Turbinado instead of Sucanat sugar. Both are awesome raw sugars but the sucanat has an assertiveness that is difficult to describe. Beersmith has turbinado in ingredients list so I just copied it from program window.