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DrunkleJon

DrunkleJon

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First off I want to start by saying that I am not trying to piss anyone off or cause a flame war or anything, I am just wondering what the factor is behind this. So without further ado...

Why is it that when anyone asks a question about switching to all grain that the BIABers all chime in and flood the thread with responses saying "GO BIAB!!!!!!!!" (number of !'s varys) instead of just saying that BIAB is an option (if they need to promote it) and then answer the question as asked instead of just pushing everyone towards BIAB? I have done both, and honestly prefer regular AG with MLT, etc. I just find it odd that the more 'traditional' AG people aren't as... rabid (probably not the right word for this, but it is the equivalent of a Monday at work today) in their support for a style of brewing.

Let me reiterate before anyone complains. I have nothing against BIAB. I have nothing against those who BIAB. I like this HBT community and appreciate how helpful everyone is. This is one of the reasons I have stuck around and make good beer. I just am trying to figure out what it is about BIAB that is so... Peer pressurey.

flame away.
 
I didnt notice
But if I had I would assume it's because if people are already doing full extract boils all they would need to switch to AG is a $2 paint strainer bag.
Makes sense to me although I have never gone that rout, I use a rubber maid water cooler and i batch sparge which is clearly the best method for everyone
 
...because it can usually be done without purchasing new equipment, and is a good "transition" method for going AG.

The other reason is there are alot of cheap-skates on this forum (no offense meant, but it is a fact). Since alot of people come to homebrewing because to save on beer cost (which is ironically funny if you are a veteran of the hobby), there are alot of people who have that way of thinking of doing things cheaply. Hence BIAB.
 
The forum is about relaying experiences. A lot of people thought they wouldn't be able to get into all grain brewing because it has traditionally carried a justified high pricetag with it. The big proponents of BIAB brewing are those who thought that way and finally found that they could do it cheaply. They're generally more excited about the prospect of getting into all grain apparently.
 
You're not the first thread starter about it (I think I might have even done one years ago) as well as the first person to notice this phenomenon. There was even a thread locked on the same topic... it's exactly the same as the over-zealous keggers who think the answer to every question about bottling is "keg."

I think really it is just that...overzealousness/excitement. Ive done both. I still prefer my trusty cooler. But I don't jump into every ag thread and say "cooler." I've even talked about BIAB as an option. (just like I keg AND bottle, and still can't understand why some folks need to interject the annoying 'keg" comment into bottling threads.)

The big thing about it is that it has made AG brewing more accessible than even the leap from oven/zap a pap to cooler mash tuns. So it's got a lot of adherents, and new converts to ANYTHING can be annoyingly forward in their attempt to convert people to their bandwagon.

But yeah, it does get to be a bit much sometimes.
 
dstranger99 said:
Because it's the same exact thing with less mess & less equipment.
Click to expand...

To each his own, I've brewed both ways and always made a bigger mess with BIAB. It's all about finding a way to brew that you find works.

I didn't like BIAB. So I batch sparge with a Rubbermaid MLT. Do I make better beer doing either way? No. I just like using my MLT more.
 
dstranger99 said:
Because it's the same exact thing with less mess & less equipment.
Click to expand...

I've done both, can't tell yet which one turns out better yet as my first AG with batch sparge, is still in the fermenter. If you have only done extracts, the only thing you need for BIAB(Brew in a Bag) is the bag, and maybe some sort of cheap pulley system to lift the heavy bag full of wet grains. Takes almost the same amount of time, AG may take a bit longer due to the extra equipment used that will also have to be cleaned.
 
Revvy said:
You're not the first thread starter about it (I think I might have even done one years ago) as well as the first person to notice this phenomenon. There was even a thread locked on the same topic... it's exactly the same as the over-zealous keggers who think the answer to every question about bottling is "keg."

I think really it is just that...overzealousness/excitement. Ive done both. I still prefer my trusty cooler. But I don't jump into every ag thread and say "cooler." I've even talked about BIAB as an option. (just like I keg AND bottle, and still can't understand why some folks need to interject the annoying 'keg" comment into bottling threads.)

The big thing about it is that it has made AG brewing more accessible than even the leap from oven/zap a pap to cooler mash tuns. So it's got a lot of adherents, and new converts to ANYTHING can be annoyingly forward in their attempt to convert people to their bandwagon.

But yeah, it does get to be a bit much sometimes.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know I am not the first. Or 40th for that matter. Its just... especially recently, I have seen topics that start out with people saying they essentailly already have the equipment for a 'standard' AG asking an equipment question with the obligatory 14 posts following telling them to go BIAB. I do not typically see many of the more traditional style AGers telling BIAB people that they need to change approaches. I dunno. Just a trend I am noticing reemerging.
 
according to the interwebs, brew in a bag is just a less efficient and more convenient form of mashing....ill take my sabco or coleman extreme cooler any day..i enjoy brew days and dont mind how long they are. My friends dad is an extract/partial extract brewer and i dont look down my nose...he doesnt have the patience for AG and i respect that.... at least hes brewing!
 
"Less efficient" can be debated. Look at the various posts of BIABers getting 80-85% efficiency. Anyway, some brewer try to improve their efficiency and some don't.

BIAB offers a quick/cheap transition to AG. I think that is the heart of the recommendation for new AGers.
 
I suppose the efficiency would be correlated to how well you insulate your mashing vessel...I guess in my opinion, why transition when its just as easy and not really that much more expensive to go AG right away.
 
I may or may not be one of the people you are talking about, but I have spoken of the virtues of BIAB several times on here. I personally promote BIAB because that is what I have experience with. I know the fundamentals of a traditional setup, (and will be building one soon, as I start 10 gal batches), but I cannot say that it is better or worse. From my understanding I get about the same efficiency as most people (75%) whether they are doing BIAB or a traditional setup. I know that seeing traditional setups made me think I could never get into all grain without a large investment. I have heard this repeated both on these forums and in real life a lot. I think that is the big reason why people seem to push it. It does also come from people with cooler setups too. BIAB is just a great way to ease into all-grain, because AG does take more time/effort, and if you have to spend an extra $100 (after 20+ BIAB batches, I only just now bought a burner) to try it and find out it's not for you, then you just wasted that money and effort.

Another reason for BIABers being more vocal can be something to the tune of being a kind of minority, or that we feel that traditional setup folks look down on us, or just that many people do not know. I was at a homebrew event for the Big Brew Day, brewing with 50+ other brewers. This was my first time ever actually seeing someone else brew in real life. There was only 1 other BIABer there, and anyone who mentioned anything about my setup had never heard of BIAB, and thought I was doing extract with steeping grains.

I dunno, I can't speak for everyone, but I think that covers the majority of it.
 
phenry said:
To each his own, I've brewed both ways and always made a bigger mess with BIAB. It's all about finding a way to brew that you find works.

I didn't like BIAB. So I batch sparge with a Rubbermaid MLT. Do I make better beer doing either way? No. I just like using my MLT more.
Click to expand...
I am in this same boat; I have done a couple dozen batches of both. I am now using my mash tun; for me it's less hassle & less messy. (I tried with & without a hoist). I brew great beer with both methods.:ban:
 
because AG does take more time/effort, and if you have to spend an extra $100 (after 20+ BIAB batches, I only just now bought a burner) to try it and find out it's not for you, then you just wasted that money and effort.
Click to expand...

Although I agree with more time/effort, I must disagree with the price. You can build a mash tun on the cheap, and if you are brewing already, odds are you have a turkey fryer.

Mash Tun
  • Coleman 52 qt extreme cooler: $30
  • Hardware: $15

Turkey Fryer: $10-15

but i dont look down on biab at all!
 
I also agree that it does seem that some BIABers seem to get on a soapbox saying that you should do it. Others offer it as an option using less equipment.

I have done extract, partial mash AG/batch sparge and BIAB. I like BIAB the least. I find it a PITA. I don't like the heavy, hot, sticky bag. And find it difficult to lift out and drain without making a mess.
 
BIAB = Less equipment, lower efficiency
AG = More quipment, higher efficiency

Depending on time, attitude, and sheer energy to pull out all my equipment is how i decide to AG or BIAB.
Most of the time its AG just so i dont have to compensate on my grain bill for lost efficiency.

Tomato Tamato IMHO
 
Apparently what everybody wants is for the BIAB people to start advocating for the cooler MT setup....or not to be so excited about BIAB.
 
Remember back in the olden days when BIAB ment "partial mash with extract" or "mini-mash"?

I am one that doen't understand the lure of this AG BIAB phenom. I've seen it done by a friend that swears it's easier and more efficient. All I saw was him make a mess and rig equipment while I drank homebrew and waited for my grains to mash in the round cooler tun. He also errected a "derrick" out of a ladder and a hoist to yard the now 25 plus pound saturated grain bag out of the wort. I've said it before... the day I buy a ladder to brew with, is the day I'm climbing on it to add hops in a 30bbl kettle. :)

Again... not a flame job here... but just don't get it. So I have steered clear of all BIAB threads.

Gary
 
I attribute this to what I call the atheist complex. People like to surprise and shock and get people to gawk in disgust. This complex is usually applied to a contrarian personality type. e.g you don't believe in god?, you can keg home brew? you can brew in a bag? Sadly we become jaded and the atheist's are reduced to screaming Why there is no god! in an over night attempt to bring back my career in the worst piece of literary **** ever written [Richard Dawkins] to get the same shock value.

Disclaimer: While the author of the above post seems to be of average intelligence. Don't believe it he is very remedial and may have misspelled contrarian twice! so don't get mad its all ****$ & Giggles:drunk:
 
reverendj1 said:
I may or may not be one of the people you are talking about, but I have spoken of the virtues of BIAB several times on here. I personally promote BIAB because that is what I have experience with. I know the fundamentals of a traditional setup, (and will be building one soon, as I start 10 gal batches), but I cannot say that it is better or worse. From my understanding I get about the same efficiency as most people (75%) whether they are doing BIAB or a traditional setup. I know that seeing traditional setups made me think I could never get into all grain without a large investment. I have heard this repeated both on these forums and in real life a lot. I think that is the big reason why people seem to push it. It does also come from people with cooler setups too. BIAB is just a great way to ease into all-grain, because AG does take more time/effort, and if you have to spend an extra $100 (after 20+ BIAB batches, I only just now bought a burner) to try it and find out it's not for you, then you just wasted that money and effort.

Another reason for BIABers being more vocal can be something to the tune of being a kind of minority, or that we feel that traditional setup folks look down on us, or just that many people do not know. I was at a homebrew event for the Big Brew Day, brewing with 50+ other brewers. This was my first time ever actually seeing someone else brew in real life. There was only 1 other BIABer there, and anyone who mentioned anything about my setup had never heard of BIAB, and thought I was doing extract with steeping grains.

I dunno, I can't speak for everyone, but I think that covers the majority of it.
Click to expand...

Well put. This is the kind of dialogue I wanted to see. Honestly I understand both sides. There is not one person in particular I am referring to. I do not want to be calling anyone out or anything.

I agree that home brewers should not all brew the same way. I like that we are comprised of 1 gallon - miltiple bbl brewers. From mr B to all grain fully automated setups. Home maltsters to bean maltsters to creamygoodness (that guy is the freaking mr wizard of experimental batches. I mean okra mead?)

I am thankful for the diversity of HBT. The caring, respectful, helpful, and quite often wittily sarcastic comments and replies to questions and ideas. They are what has allowed me and many others to grow and evolve. And for you creationists, we were created the way we are now, we never were noobs.

Now since I got off topic on one of those "I love you guys" posts I will shut up and have a(nother) homebrew.
 
I frequently tell someone that is or wants to move on from extract to all grain to take a few minor steps. Usually I will suggest they try a mini-mash, if they like that they can try BIAB if they already have a larger kettle, then finally try finding someone close to them that is an all grain brewer. This way they are able to migrate their processes as well as their knowledge of what they are doing. I did the same thing on my own. Started with extract batches and did a mini-mash... that settled it for me and I jumped to all grain. It takes small steps for the brewer to decide what process is best for them. I don't dis-like anyone because of their process, I've made and had some very exceptional beers that were extract only beers and I've made and had beers that were not the best from all grain. It is a learning process and everyone learns something that makes their chosen system work better each time they brew.

Best advice is always 'Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Home Brew'

Mouse
 
Johnnyhitch1 said:
BIAB = Less equipment, lower efficiency
AG = More quipment, higher efficiency

Depending on time, attitude, and sheer energy to pull out all my equipment is how i decide to AG or BIAB.
Most of the time its AG just so i dont have to compensate on my grain bill for lost efficiency.

Tomato Tamato IMHO
Click to expand...

I think you have something backward. At least in my experience BIAB = less equipment, higher efficiency plus I've learned that I can all grain brew in the time it took me to extract plus steeping grains. What's not to love about that. In the time many of you are reporting for all grain I can do 2 batches. So you enjoy the time spent, so do I but I got two batches of beer.
 
Back in the olden day, the grain bags were made different than what baggers are using today. They were a cylinder made from heavy walled canvas with a screen sewn in the bottom. They had hoops sewn in the top used to hold the bag off the bottom of a bucket. They'd hold 12 pounds of grain. Back in the olden day the term BIAB wasn't partial/extract. It was the full charge of grain tossed into the bag to do a 5 gallon brew. Then, along came Papazian. Writing, RDWHAHB, beer can be brewed in panty hose! An epiphany among his sheep was born. BIAB came to be, along with partial this and that. The sheep saw no value in buying a 12 buck decent bag, when all they had to do was buy a pair of super extra large tall Leggs panty hose for 2 bucks or swipe their ole ladies or their neighbors and get 25 batches per pair. After all, Charlies writings were inspired by God. After the new generation of Papazianite baggers came to be. The company making good bags ceased making them. My bagger days ended once the decent bags became extinct, circa 1985. It's too bad a bagger can't sew up a heavy walled canvas bag with a screen in the bottom. Instead of the chinzwah curtain material that's out there these days. The bags made today look like Cher's mesh underwear with the legs sewn shut, made big enough to fit Jabba the Hut.
 
VladOfTrub said:
Back in the olden day, the grain bags were made different than what baggers are using today. They were a cylinder made from heavy walled canvas with a screen sewn in the bottom. They had hoops sewn in the top used to hold the bag off the bottom of a bucket. They'd hold 12 pounds of grain. Back in the olden day the term BIAB wasn't partial/extract. It was the full charge of grain tossed into the bag to do a 5 gallon brew. Then, along came Papazian. Writing, RDWHAHB, beer can be brewed in panty hose! An epiphany among his sheep was born. BIAB came to be, along with partial this and that. The sheep saw no value in buying a 12 buck decent bag, when all they had to do was buy a pair of super extra large tall Leggs panty hose for 2 bucks or swipe their ole ladies or their neighbors and get 25 batches per pair. After all, Charlies writings were inspired by God. After the new generation of Papazianite baggers came to be. The company making good bags ceased making them. My bagger days ended once the decent bags became extinct, circa 1985. It's too bad a bagger can't sew up a heavy walled canvas bag with a screen in the bottom. Instead of the chinzwah curtain material that's out there these days. The bags made today look like Cher's mesh underwear with the legs sewn shut, made big enough to fit Jabba the Hut.
Click to expand...

I'll have whatever he's having.
 
I will freely admit to being an evangelistic BIAB'er. I've been a casual homebrewers since '05, doing partial boil extract+specialty grains batches. I had read about doing all-grain, but it seemed really intimidating - having to build things, worry about batch vs fly sparging, stuck mashes, insulation, etc. I really liked brewing, and bought 33lb jugs of LME to do my batches.

Then I read about BIAB, watched some YouTube videos, and decided to give it a try. Bought myself a paint strainer bag and brewed a 3 gallon full boil batch of the Session Saison I found on here. It was awesome! Ended up the best brew I had ever made out of 32 batches up to they point! And it was SO EASY and cheap.

For me, 3 gallon BIAB is the best way to get into all grain. You don't need any extra equipment ( although I bought a $25 refractometer after my second BIAB because using a hydrometer is such a PITA ).

I've since invested in a 7.5 gallon ported kettle, but aside from that and a cheap $20 corona mill I have made no more equipment purchases over my original kit I bought 8 years ago. I've bought some extra 5 gallon buckets, but I'm still using all my original kit.

I may at some point upgrade to a "real" all grain system, but honestly, I
don't see any pressing reason why. I get 80% efficiency, and I can mash 10 pounds of grain easily, so I either make 5 gallons of 1.050ish brews, or supplement with extract or make a 3 or 4 gallon batch.

So sorry if I'm one of the evangelical BIAB'ers, but that's my story. Going all-grain is scary, and if you have to make a big equipment outlay in terms of time/money (my LHBS sells a mash tun kit for $150!), it's quite intimidating. With a 3 gallon AG batch, the extra equipment plus ingredients were CHEAPER than an extract kit! You can't beat that! And like RM-MN said, it is quick, too. I've done multiple double brew days in under 6 hours. If I prep everything ahead of time I'll be done in 3.5 hours.
 
Home Depot has the 5 gal cooler for 22 bucks....a couple of washers, 2 O rings, a ball valve, a water heater line(used instead of false borrom) ,,,you are OTD for under 50 bucks. I have done all three and believe you me AG is not scary......not saying which method is better but if cost is your concern,,,,,,make your own mash tun, you do make your own beer, right?
 
packerfaninsandiego said:
home depot has the 5 gal cooler for 22 bucks....a couple of washers, 2 o rings, a ball valve, a water heater line(used instead of false borrom) ,,,you are otd for under 50 bucks. I have done all three and believe you me ag is not scary......not saying which method is better but if cost is your concern,,,,,,make your own mash tun, you do make your own beer, right?
Click to expand...


x2
 
Seems like you're ignoring what I said. Sure, once you've done AG once or twice, it's not a big deal, and I'm considering building a "real" mash tun, but if you're not at that point yet, it's a pretty big hurdle to jump.

You're not seriously contending that spending $50+, tracking down a bunch of parts, and spending bunch of time is in the same ballpark as "buy a $3 paint strainer, and go"?

Not everybody is a DIY powerhouse, and has the time and inclination to spend fiddling with home-made gear. People have other responsibilities - family, work, volunteering, yard work, etc., and time available for brewing is precious. You need to put yourself in the mindset of the casual extract brewer, you're looking at it from the POV of one who has already crossed the chasm.
 
QuercusMax said:
Seems like you're ignoring what I said. Sure, once you've done AG once or twice, it's not a big deal, and I'm considering building a "real" mash tun, but if you're not at that point yet, it's a pretty big hurdle to jump.

You're not seriously contending that spending $50+, tracking down a bunch of parts, and spending bunch of time is in the same ballpark as "buy a $3 paint strainer, and go"?

Not everybody is a DIY powerhouse, and has the time and inclination to spend fiddling with home-made gear. People have other responsibilities - family, work, volunteering, yard work, etc., and time available for brewing is precious. You need to put yourself in the mindset of the casual extract brewer, you're looking at it from the POV of one who has already crossed the chasm.
Click to expand...


Yeah, a $3.00 strainer bag will harbor the same results.

But Jesus, you sound like it takes a genius to build this, it doesn't. One trip to Lowes or Home depot and your done.
 
Lets try to keep it civil. I noticed before I even considered AG that there was this chasm between the BIABers and kettle and cooler AGers. It just seems that recently the amount of super enthusiastic go BIAB type responses has increased by a lot. Its weird though that you do not see the same 'you have to do it this way' attitude for practically anything else other than the whol1 1 gal/5 gal batch size.
 
OK, I'll admit to being very enthusiastic about BIAB and mention it quite often. Here are some of the reasons why.
1. It's cheap. $5 gets you the paint strainer bags and that's all you need.
2. Space. For those with limited storage space a pair of paint strainer bags take up next to no space at all.
3. Cleaning. I dump out the grains while the wort is coming to a boil, rinse the bag and hang it to dry. Less than a minute for that part of the cleanup.
4. Efficiency. Since I can mill my grains fine, I get great efficiency, even with wheat. I haven't been under 80% since the jamnut came loose on my Corona mill and it adjusted itself coarser.
5. Easy. No stuck sparge ever. No lautering. Pull the bag out, let it drain a few seconds, slip a bowl under the bag and set it on the counter. No mess if I'm a little bit careful. Squeeze the rest of the wort out of the bag and dump it back into the pot. It's easier and more efficient to have a colander inside the bowl but it works without too.
6. Speed. Since my grain is milled so fine, I don't have to mash for an hour or more. My grain particles are wet to the center nearly instantly and conversion is very fast. I take the time to mash for 30 minutes but I think I could cut that by quite a bit. My wort tests negative for starches in less than 10 minutes. If I could cool a bit faster I could do a couple batches in the 6 hours some of you have mentioned needing with your pretty brew structures.

There are quite a few new brewers (I was once one of them) who don't want to invest the money and space for a mashtun until they know if it will work for them. I tried a small batch BIAB and it worked so well I never went beyond BIAB.
 
RM-MN, are you my secret twin? All of those are true for me as well, including the nut on my corona mill coming loose and killing my efficiency due to a terrible crush...

But yeah. It's cheap, easy, fast, doesn't require extra space for equipment. I'd really like a good argument for why a brewer contemplating all-grain *shouldn't* try BIAB before building a "real" mash tun.
 

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