Reducing oxidation on bottled homebrew

[rafaelpinto]

I have come up with a technique for reducing oxidation on hoppy beers.

It consists of adding sugar 2 days before bottling day. Figure out a amount that will bring up yeast to work out and make the beer produce a good amount of CO2. On the bottling moment, it should be bubbling enough to prevent oxygen from getting in the bottle.

Account for the extra sugar/carbonation when adding the primming sugar.

It may sound strange for some. But there are several reports of guys saying that their hoppy beers only tasted good after they change from bottling to kegging. But I cant afford the setup right now. As a solution, some people tried adding dry ice while bottling... but that does not seem very easy or sanitary to me.

Sorry for my bad english.

Thats it!

 

[MaxStout]

How do you predict the actual amount of sugar that will remain at bottling time? Figuring how much the yeast will consume prior to bottling is a crapshoot, at best.

 

[rafaelpinto]

How do you predict the actual amount of sugar that will remain at bottling time? Figuring how much the yeast will consume prior to bottling is a crapshoot, at best.

Thats an easy question: measuring gravity before adding sugar and on bottling time.

If you assure primary fermentation is done before adding this extra amount of sugar for a second fermentation, everything must work fine. Maybe there will be no need for bottling prime sugar. I mean, how much 7g/L of sugar translates into SG? 2 points?

 

[rafaelpinto]

Possible downside: bringing yeast to suspension!

 

[MaxStout]

What does adding extra sugar 2 days prior do for CO2 production in the bottle that adding the regular amount at bottling would not do? Either way, you have CO2 production in the bottle.

 

[Qhrumphf]

One of the reasons why bottled conditioned beers actually age better than force carbed and then bottled beers is that the during the refermentation in the bottle they use up what little oxygen was added. Obviously if you add too much then that's a different issue. But if you have a good bottling process, this is fixing a non issue.

Plus, a simple purging with CO2 during any transferring will accomplish roughly the same thing.

 

[rafaelpinto]

One of the reasons why bottled conditioned beers actually age better than force carbed and then bottled beers is that the during the refermentation in the bottle they use up what little oxygen was added. Obviously if you add too much then that's a different issue. But if you have a good bottling process, this is fixing a non issue.

Plus, a simple purging with CO2 during any transferring will accomplish roughly the same thing.

Oh, thats that to.. will the lack of oxygen do any harm?

The technique I propose costs much less than buying a co2 bucket...

 

[rafaelpinto]

One of the reasons why bottled conditioned beers actually age better than force carbed and then bottled beers is that the during the refermentation in the bottle they use up what little oxygen was added. Obviously if you add too much then that's a different issue. But if you have a good bottling process, this is fixing a non issue.

Plus, a simple purging with CO2 during any transferring will accomplish roughly the same thing.

I never like the sound of aging hoppy beers. For me, Id drink 5 gal on a month. Am I right?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Oh, thats that to.. will the lack of oxygen do any harm?

The technique I propose costs much less than buying a co2 bucket...

Shouldn't cause a problem. Just unnecessary.

I never like the sound of aging hoppy beers. For me, Id drink 5 gal on a month. Am I right?

Right. Hoppy beers shouldn't be aged. But other styles that do well after a while in the cellar also age better when bottle conditioned. Of course a force carbed beer can age beautifully too if it's brewed bottled and ages properly.

 

[rafaelpinto]

Alright, got it! on an imperial, for example, a low degree of oxidation might be expected, right? No big deal...

 

[tally350z]

My concern with allowing the yeast to become active in the bottling bucket/carboy before you bottle is your going to drive off those delicate hop aroma's on your hoppy beers assuming they are dry-hopped IPA's..

 

[rafaelpinto]

My concern with allowing the yeast to become active in the bottling bucket/carboy before you bottle is your going to drive off those delicate hop aroma's on your hoppy beers assuming they are dry-hopped IPA's..

Thats true!

However, in my case, I could never manage to get strong hop aroma/taste. Despite using all the correct and best techniques, I never get a hoppy beer. And I blame it on oxidation.

So the idea on my next brew is using a hop tea, done minutes before bottling. No dry hopping.

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

Oxygen absorbing caps anyone?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Thats true!

However, in my case, I could never manage to get strong hop aroma/taste. Despite using all the correct and best techniques, I never get a hoppy beer. And I blame it on oxidation.

So the idea on my next brew is using a hop tea, done minutes before bottling. No dry hopping.

Expand on the "correct and best techniques". You may well have a different issue.

I bottle condition or cask condition everything (no kegging) and all my hoppy beers get great hop flavor and aroma.

 

[rafaelpinto]

Expand on the "correct and best techniques". You may well have a different issue.

I have done long hop stands with the proper amount (3,2oz/5gal), temperature (150F) and time (1-2h). Ive done dry hopping with the proper amount (3oz-4oz/5gal), temperature (68F) and time (5-7 days) - oh, and I tried dry hopping long after primary fermentation was done and most of the yeast has settled (gelatin) and taken of fermentor (I got a conical). Ive also tried First Wort Hopping, 100% pilsner malt bill and low FG (finishing around 1007 on a Pale Ale).

All of that with fresh ingredients, sanitation and stuff. All of that with no success.

Yes, it might be that there is something else than oxygen ruining my beer (its not contamination, for sure). Why do I say that? Cause the low hopped beers arent great also. And they always seem both darker and more bitter than planned. Anyways, I never got cardboard smell/taste on my beers. However, I do get some adstringency. Yes, Ive mesured pH and it was fine too (both before and after fermenation).

Might be water, yes? But everyone says there is nothing wrong with it. My water profile is extremely low on everything, take a look:

pH at 25ºC: 4,75

Magnesium - 0,058 ppm
Potassium - 0,315 ppm
Sodium - 0,525 ppm
Nitrate - 0,10 ppm
Sulfate - 0,03 ppm
Chloride - 0,11 ppm
Bicarbonate - 2,8 ppm​

Im really lost and considering stop homebrewing

 

[TwistedHops]

Are the hops fresh? Is it just not the flavor and aroma you're expecting? Is your fermentation controlled?

I'm just spit balling trying to help you out here. I had an astringent beer before and it was due to an uncontrolled fermentation.

 

[chickypad]

I have come up with a technique for reducing oxidation on hoppy beers.

It consists of adding sugar 2 days before bottling day. Figure out a amount that will bring up yeast to work out and make the beer produce a good amount of CO2. On the bottling moment, it should be bubbling enough to prevent oxygen from getting in the bottle.

I don't understand how this is supposed to work. You're transferring the beer into the bottle which is filled with oxygen. It would then need to sit there for a while generating CO2 to push out the rest of the O2 in the headspace before capping. I always assumed the increased oxygen risk from bottling is all in the transfers and not being able to purge the receiving vessel.

If I'm reading that report right it's basically RO water? .03 ppm sulfate, etc? You don't list calcium but I assume that's not present either. Are you adding any minerals? I suspect your mash pH is too high which could cause darkening and lead to tannins which could cause astringency. It also's probably not great for yeast health and fermentation.

 

[Qhrumphf]

If your hops are improperly stored, that could be a big part of it. Oils and alpha acids degrade, and you're left with vegetal nastiness, or even worse cheesy nastiness.

Your water is pretty much RO level of purity. However, in an all pilsner malt beer, that will probably still have a pH too high if you're not also using acidulated malt or dropping the mash pH with acid. Not sure what you were measuring your pH with, or exactly when "before and after fermentation" is, but if you aren't reading your mash pH properly at room temperature with a pH meter (the strips are terrible), it won't do you much good. And with a pale hoppy beer with too high of a mash pH, you'll get not only astringency, but dullness. Next time you do a hoppy beer, try adding a bit of gypsum, as the calcium would help bring out the pH, your water needs it anyway (while it's not listed, it's also going to be low), and the sulfate will help the hops pop a little bit.

Another water issue, if you've got chlorine or chloramine in there (most urban water supplies do in the US, not sure where you're from but it's defintiely somewhere else ), that'll cause problems too. I get an astringency with chlorophenols, and they'll often mask hop character. Either carbon filtration (slow flow rate), or treating your water with potassium metabisulfite (campden tablets).

What's your chill procedure? Are you using a counterflow or plate chiller, or an immersion chiller? Are you doing any late boil hops, or just hop stand/whirlpool hops? I use an immersion chiller, so I don't bother with whirlpooling or hop stands, just bittering and late boil additions, and the instant after a flameout addition I'm already chilling.

If you're using a counterflow or plate chiller, consider adding a hop back IMMEDIATELY prior to the chiller, and then make sure you use whole leaf hops in there. In addition to providing the best hop punch, also works as a filter to keep gunk out of your chiller.

 

[rafaelpinto]

Are the hops fresh? Is it just not the flavor and aroma you're expecting? Is your fermentation controlled?

I'm just spit balling trying to help you out here. I had an astringent beer before and it was due to an uncontrolled fermentation.

Fresh enough to smell freaking good on the bag. I like to ferment cold, around 64F. Yes, its totally controlled.

 

[rafaelpinto]

I don't understand how this is supposed to work. You're transferring the beer into the bottle which is filled with oxygen. It would then need to sit there for a while generating CO2 to push out the rest of the O2 in the headspace before capping. I always assumed the increased oxygen risk from bottling is all in the transfers and not being able to purge the receiving vessel.

CO2 bubbling should push O2 out of the headspace - or, at least, create a co2 blanket. If that is how thing work... hop so.

If I'm reading that report right it's basically RO water? .03 ppm sulfate, etc? You don't list calcium but I assume that's not present either. Are you adding any minerals? I suspect your mash pH is too high which could cause darkening and lead to tannins which could cause astringency. It also's probably not great for yeast health and fermentation.

Im not adding anything. I will try to keep attention on mash pH. Anyway, the water is ok pH-wise and the finished beer is also ok. But I will try to test pH during mash to answer you. I am brewing a new batch the day after tomorrow. Thanks!

 

[rafaelpinto]

If your hops are improperly stored, that could be a big part of it. Oils and alpha acids degrade, and you're left with vegetal nastiness, or even worse cheesy nastiness.

Your water is pretty much RO level of purity. However, in an all pilsner malt beer, that will probably still have a pH too high if you're not also using acidulated malt or dropping the mash pH with acid. Not sure what you were measuring your pH with, or exactly when "before and after fermentation" is, but if you aren't reading your mash pH properly at room temperature with a pH meter (the strips are terrible), it won't do you much good. And with a pale hoppy beer with too high of a mash pH, you'll get not only astringency, but dullness. Next time you do a hoppy beer, try adding a bit of gypsum, as the calcium would help bring out the pH, your water needs it anyway (while it's not listed, it's also going to be low), and the sulfate will help the hops pop a little bit.

Another water issue, if you've got chlorine or chloramine in there (most urban water supplies do in the US, not sure where you're from but it's defintiely somewhere else ), that'll cause problems too. I get an astringency with chlorophenols, and they'll often mask hop character. Either carbon filtration (slow flow rate), or treating your water with potassium metabisulfite (campden tablets).

What's your chill procedure? Are you using a counterflow or plate chiller, or an immersion chiller? Are you doing any late boil hops, or just hop stand/whirlpool hops? I use an immersion chiller, so I don't bother with whirlpooling or hop stands, just bittering and late boil additions, and the instant after a flameout addition I'm already chilling.

If you're using a counterflow or plate chiller, consider adding a hop back IMMEDIATELY prior to the chiller, and then make sure you use whole leaf hops in there. In addition to providing the best hop punch, also works as a filter to keep gunk out of your chiller.

Lots of info to think about. Thanks, dude!

Hop bags are properly stored. Yes, I am using pH strips for measurement.

 

[doug293cz]

CO2 bubbling should push O2 out of the headspace - or, at least, create a co2 blanket. If that is how thing work... hop so.

You only get a CO2 blanket over the beer if you have had enough fermentation to create much more CO2 than the volume of the headspace. The CO2 will not act like a piston pushing up from the beer to expel the air cleanly, so multiple volume exchanges are needed to dilute the headspace gas composition to low O2. The blanket is also not stable as CO2 and air mix readily due to diffusion (and any air currents will speed it up.) Check out this video showing interdiffusion of two gases with very different densities (Br2 is about 5.7 times more dense than air, but CO2 is only about 1.5 times more dense than air.) CO2 has a density similar to NO2.

Brew on

 

[jbaysurfer]

I have done long hop stands with the proper amount (3,2oz/5gal), temperature (150F) and time (1-2h). Ive done dry hopping with the proper amount (3oz-4oz/5gal), temperature (68F) and time (5-7 days) - oh, and I tried dry hopping long after primary fermentation was done and most of the yeast has settled (gelatin) and taken of fermentor (I got a conical). Ive also tried First Wort Hopping, 100% pilsner malt bill and low FG (finishing around 1007 on a Pale Ale).

All of that with fresh ingredients, sanitation and stuff. All of that with no success.

Yes, it might be that there is something else than oxygen ruining my beer (its not contamination, for sure). Why do I say that? Cause the low hopped beers arent great also. And they always seem both darker and more bitter than planned. Anyways, I never got cardboard smell/taste on my beers. However, I do get some adstringency. Yes, Ive mesured pH and it was fine too (both before and after fermenation).

Might be water, yes? But everyone says there is nothing wrong with it. My water profile is extremely low on everything, take a look:

pH at 25ºC: 4,75

Magnesium - 0,058 ppm
Potassium - 0,315 ppm
Sodium - 0,525 ppm
Nitrate - 0,10 ppm
Sulfate - 0,03 ppm
Chloride - 0,11 ppm
Bicarbonate - 2,8 ppm​

Im really lost and considering stop homebrewing

I'm NOT even close to one of the resident water experts, but that PH is supsiciously low. Most water is in the 7-8 range. RO water should also be in the 7-8 range.

Where'd you get those numbers?

 

[rafaelpinto]

You only get a CO2 blanket over the beer if you have had enough fermentation to create much more CO2 than the volume of the headspace. The CO2 will not act like a piston pushing up from the beer to expel the air cleanly, so multiple volume exchanges are needed to dilute the headspace gas composition to low O2. The blanket is also not stable as CO2 and air mix readily due to diffusion (and any air currents will speed it up.) Check out this video showing interdiffusion of two gases with very different densities (Br2 is about 5.7 times more dense than air, but CO2 is only about 1.5 times more dense than air.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oLPBnhOCjM CO2 has a density similar to NO2.

Brew on

I see... well, you spoiled my idea! Actually, nature did
Thanks for the info

 

[rafaelpinto]

I'm NOT even close to one of the resident water experts, but that PH is supsiciously low. Most water is in the 7-8 range. RO water should also be in the 7-8 range.

Where'd you get those numbers?

Is it?

I got the numbers from the product information. I use water that comes in containers like that one

Ive found a study that regards pH water sold on those containers here in Brazil. Most of it is actually higher than 6, but some are close to 4. They analysed almost 40 water sources. You can see the results on page 4: http://www.scielo.br/pdf/ramb/v45n3/1658.pdf

 

[jbaysurfer]

Is it?

I got the numbers from the product information. I use water that comes in containers like that one

Ive found a study that regards pH water sold on those containers here in Brazil. Most of it is actually higher than 6, but some are close to 4. They analysed almost 40 water sources. You can see the results on page 4: http://www.scielo.br/pdf/ramb/v45n3/1658.pdf

I don't know that I'd trust the product information too much, but I guess there you have it. It was definitely eyebrow raising to me, but in my defense, I volunteered my shortcomings in my last post.

I know my own RO water that I test with my own calibrated PH Meter was 7.4. 4 is very acidic. you wouldn't need to use very much Starsan to turn that water into sanitizer fwiw. Maybe a little cost savings to you is a pleasant side effect!

Edit: LOL! I thought I owed it to you to read that study you linked. Afterall you did the research. But I don't think Portuguese is enough like Spanish because I couldn't understand it!