Recurring Off Flavor with a new twist = At a Loss!

[Catnip_X07]

A few months ago I posted my issues with three of my batches having off-flavors of being stale/clove/with a hint of sourness. In a way, it’s like the beer had a very sterile taste. The taste appeared in the fermenter where I hoped time would solve the taste after it was bottled and kegged. It hasn’t yet. So, I took apart all of my equipment and gave it all a good cleaning and eliminated tubing and siphon. I brewed an all grain pumpkin ale at end of September and after 3 weeks in the fermenter, I tasted it….absolutely phenomenal. Had a great taste with right amount of pumpkin spices, a bit of a dry finish (attributed to low mash temp of 150F), and a complimentary pumpkin spice aroma. No repeat of the horrible off flavors. I bottled the pumpkin beer and 2 weeks later opened one up.

NO SPICE AROMA WHATSOEVER. The smell….reminded me of the bland/sterile off-flavors from earlier. The taste…the same. Bland. Sterile (no sourness or anything). AND…slight metallic taste. I thought maybe it was too young, so I opened one up at 3 weeks. At 3 weeks, no change from the first one except a very strong metallic taste punched me in the mouth. I opened one up at 4 weeks = very mild metallic taste and same bland/sterile taste. At 5 weeks the metallic taste lingers, but is not overpowering any longer, yet the sterile taste remains. Even though there are pumpkin spices, this beer seriously tastes just like the other non-spiced beers I brewed earlier this year.

WHAT IS GOING ON!!!!???? My equipment is all stainless, so not sure where metallic taste will come from. My water is RO. Fermentation was at 67F with US-05 and bottle conditioned at 67F. Throw anything at me for me to consider and research.

 

[brick_haus]

What was you mash pH?

 

[Catnip_X07]

Mash pH was 5.3

 

[brick_haus]

Any chance the "sterile" taste may be described as "medicinal?" Bandaid?

 

[Catnip_X07]

You're thinking of chlorine/chloramine in the water? With RO, i would tend to think it is limited, but i won't reject anything at this point. Honestly i can't really describe the taste. i like to call it sterile since it is awfully bland and all beers have tasted the same, but yes, it could be band-aid like.
I use starsan for sanitizer and the water base for it is distilled water.

 

[Gerry_P]

Are you getting tight seals on your bottle caps? Might be some O2 sneaking in there and oxidizing stuff.

 

[Catnip_X07]

Very true on the bottling. Yet I had this same issue on my past 3 beers when sampling from the fermenters.

 

[marc1]

Are you adding any salts to the ro water during the mash?

 

[Catnip_X07]

I am adding salts when I do AG - mainly calcium chloride.
Its nuts - whether I do all-grain or partial mash kits (RO with no salts added), the off-flavors come out. I haven't done an all extract recipe however so not sure if this off-flavor comes thru on that too.

 

[schadenfreunde]

What cleaning agents are you using? I made the mistake of using scented Oxyclean to de-label bottles, and the batch had a seemingly similar taste. Even a thorough rinse before sanitizing/bottling didn't prevent the problem.

 

[Catnip_X07]

I thought about the cleaning agents too - it was oxyclean clear (or something like that which didn't have any scents) when I had the three batches go "bad". After the three batches, i then switched to PBW and ensured everything was rinsed on the equipment before brewing. For this batch with the bottles, i cleaned with PBW, then put in the dishwasher for a wash (no detergent). then I sprayed the inside of the bottles with starsan right before bottling. (of course, this step was omitted when the off-flavor happened in the fermenter)
I'm trying to pinpoint where in this process that i'm getting this off flavor. With this off-taste in the fermenter, i thought it was my equipment. now that this past batch passed the fermenter off-taste yet is now appearing in the bottles is perplexing. i'm sure its ONE thing that i'm overlooking, yet not sure what it is.

 

[atcsat]

What cleaning agents are you using? I made the mistake of using scented Oxyclean to de-label bottles, and the batch had a seemingly similar taste. Even a thorough rinse before sanitizing/bottling didn't prevent the problem.

Well crap. I've got a load of bottles soaking in scented Oxyclean right now... Had never used it till now.

 

[schadenfreunde]

I wouldn't use them if I were you. I rinsed thoroughly with one of those faucet bottle washers, and it wasn't enough.

Could be worse though! At least you didn't put a batch of homebrew in them yet!

 

[jigtwins]

I would look at oxidation and possible the yeast. I have had issues with 05 enough times to stop using it.

 

[Catnip_X07]

You know...that's not that bad of an assessment. Aside from the Oktoberfest having an issue, all other batches were on US05.
I did a 5 gallon batch of Belgian Pale using T-58 yeast, and split into two different fermenters. Each split touched different equipment. I'm going to check on them in one week to see if there anything going on with this batch - equipment wise, yeast wise, anything.

 

[BentBrewer]

Are you using a plate chiller?

 

[JordanKnudson]

I would also just double check that you are using RO water for your bottle priming solution. I might have missed you saying that, but if not...

 

[TheMadKing]

How are you controlling fermentation temperature? And what was your yeast pitch rate?

 

[Ogri]

I would also just double check that you are using RO water for your bottle priming solution. I might have missed you saying that, but if not...

Was thinking along similar lines myself but OP mentions the same off flavours being apparent in previous batch samples from fermenter. I suppose the same question could be asked about water used for rehydrating the US-05, as I seem to recall the rehydration instructions mention boiled, and cooled, tap water should be used.

Only other thing that springs to mind for me would be whether your sanitizing of bottle caps was up to scratch on this last batch.

Hope you find the culprit soon.

 

[Rush]

I would look at oxidation and possible the yeast. I have had issues with 05 enough times to stop using it.

Can you explain what kind of issues you had with 05?

 

[deepbluegroove]

check your valves, your hoses, siphons for cleanliness. Add Campden to the water to rid it of chlorine / chloramines.

 

[eelpout]

Wanna ad my myself and a few more other brewers in know to the stopped using 05 yeast club as well.
We noticed these same infection like sour and smell from 05 about 2 years ago. And even some judges we knew who travel around were seeing the same thing with 05. Have since changed to good old reliable Muntons, Coopers and Nottingham and everything is back to normal

 

[Catnip_X07]

I am not using a plate chiller. I am using an immersion chiller.

I've been out of town and haven't gotten a chance to check in on the fermenters of T-58. I did an IPA batch before I left...and used US05. We'll see what I come home to.

I took apart valves and thoroughly cleaned all parts that would touch beer, both hot and cold side.

 

[Chatfish]

I realize this is an old thread, but did you ever pinpoint the source of your off flavor? I've been having a similar issue with my batches.

 

[Catnip_X07]

no worries on old thread. meant to respond a few months ago and never got motivated until now.
I disassembled everything on my equipment, including the ball valves. ball valve on my kettle had severe, soft gunk inside. anything metal, I baked in the oven to sterilize. I bleached, sanitized, baked my silicone hoses as well. anything plastic that touched beer, was replaced with new (including autosiphon).
went back to brewing and first few batches were great. I used fresh yeast on all batches and was very diligent in cleaning everything afterwards. then more batches and everything was great! had two batches recently that had an off taste, but was different than last year. I was trying to brew as many beers as possible in a short timeframe and reused yeast, which may have been older than I thought. will scrub everything once again to make sure.
so...sterilize anything and everything you can. Clean and clean again. if you use vinyl hoses, get new. anything plastic touching beer, get new. use fresh yeast, and don't try to save a $3 by reusing old. try to map everything your beer touches and clean it. if you think a plastic part is good, don't err on you think it's ok-replace it.

 

[ncbrewer]

I had the same experience when I had an infection. Tried bleaching the fermenter bucket, etc., but it didn't work. Had to replace all plastic. Bottles were fine after bleaching. I know some brewers have been successful with bleaching plastic. I guess it depends on the specific infection.

 

[Chatfish]

Thanks for the reply. I will replace my equipment and see if that fixes it

 

[szap]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=8078265#post8078265

 

[ncbrewer]

szap: It looks like you got this in an existing thread by accident. I see it is shown as a new thread in General Beer Discussion. Probably best to edit this to delete it, and show a link to the new thread.

 

[szap]

Thanks ncbrewer.I wasnt really sure what forum to post this in Would this be better than the general discussion forum?

 

[ncbrewer]

Thanks ncbrewer.I wasnt really sure what forum to post this in Would this be better than the general discussion forum?

You're getting some responses now, so I'd say it's ok.