Recurring acetaldehyde problem with extract NEIPA brewed with S-04

[bw7hb]

If you’re a somewhat experienced brewer( don’t take that any type of way, I don’t know you personal so I’m just stateibg generally) and under stand the need for a healthy fermentation and implemented that in your practices, and you don’t have the issue with any other beer style than NEIPAS or hoppy beer styles, I would almost guarantee to you that it’s an oxidation issue. Hoppy styles are notoriously susceptible to oxidation due to how easy the excess polyphenols from the hops oxidize. It can turn to apple cider/sherry wine sweetness and stale the hops completely. I ran into this issue for half a year until Justin from Sloop Brewing was kind enough to try a few of my beers and help me improve on my process. They all started out ok, then would get cider lik and drop in overall hop flavor/aroma.
A lot of ppl use 04 without an issue so it’s extremely hard for me to believe after multiple attempts with the same yeast (multiple different growth generations from the supplier) that it keeps happening. I would think it’s a process issue.

Well, I've done about 15 brews now, all extract brews, and only about 4 of them have been successful, the remaining ones with this acetaldehyde problem or similar. So I guess I'm somewhat "experienced" but obviously doing something fundamentally wrong still.

Regarding what you mention about hoppy beers - the last few attempts have had this acetaldehyde issue before any dry hops have been added (and there are none added before fermentation except for what's in the extract kits, which isn't much) so it's nothing to do hops. I've decided not to dry hop until fermentation is 100% complete, so I can make sure I'm not just wasting my hops by throwing them into apple juice. Also I think the hops have been confusing the off flavors in the past. I am using some wheat extract (about 1/4 of the total malt), maybe this is more susceptible to oxidation?

My current thought is that the acetaldehyde detected after a week in the primary was caused by a fermentation issue or infection, then the sherry aroma detected a week later on the second sample was caused by oxidation from when I took the lid off for the first sample. I think I'm going to leave it another week or so and see what happens to it, whether it gets worse etc.

Also I'm going to start a new batch using a completely different extract kit, in my stainless pressure fermenter (easier to clean and no chance of oxidation). Hopefully I can get a few decent batches under my belt and rule out some massive sanitation issue as the cause.

what size fermenter are you using?

It's a 21 liter beer and the fermenter I believe is around 25 liter total capacity. Fairly standard setup.

 

[kh54s10]

Sorry I didn't read your post properly; you already mentioned the pre-hopped extract. No I'm not boiling anything - just adding the extract to hot water.

I use sodium percarbonate to clean my equipment. I let it soak for about 48 hours then rinse with tap water. Tap water is fairly clean here in New Zealand.

I've noticed after cleaning that there is still a faint beer smell from the previous batch - should cleaning completely remove the smell or is this impossible? I think I need to step up my cleaning game as this is something I admittedly don't put a lot of effort into.

From the last post I went back to see what else there is.

1) Try sourcing a kit from somewhere different. Get one with extract, specialty grains and hops. One that requires a boil.
2) Try a different cleaner.
3) Try a different water source.
4) Try a different yeast.

Your failure rate says that it is either water or something else you are doing drastically wrong in your procedure. I haven't had as many failures in 8 years of brewing as you have in your short time. Acetaldehyde has been something I have never encountered.

 

[downzero]

I suspect your diagnosis of the problem is wrong. What kind of water did you use to produce these batches?

 

[bw7hb]

I suspect your diagnosis of the problem is wrong. What kind of water did you use to produce these batches?

I have tried both tap water and RO water with the same results.
The few successful beers I've done all used normal tap water.

Do you mean that I might be diagnosing the off-flavor incorrectly? Could be the case as I don't have a lot of experience.

A few months back I took samples of a few failed beers to two separate homebrew stores for advice, and they both said they thought it was probably an infection due to how bad it was. One of them wasn't able to indicate what the off-flavor was but they acknowledged it was quite strange, other one said "solvently / acetate + small amount of diacetyl". Both of those beers had significant amounts of dry hops added so I imagine that confused the flavor/aromas a bit. I agreed with the solvent off-flavor on that batch, wasn't really getting the acetaldehyde, maybe it wasn't there on that one or was just being masked by hops.

 

[Pennine]

I think you might have a diastaticus infection. I had one a while back and sounds pretty similar flavor wise. It seemed to have affected hoppy ales more so than non-hoppy ones so I also went down the hop creep path. If you bottle an easy test is to leave it warm for a couple weeks and if it gushes then you know. The fact that you used a different fermenter and it was fine is a good indicator.

 

[bw7hb]

I inspected the beer again today (19 days since pitching yeast), and noticed what might be some sort of pellicle.
I'm referring to the white-ish film not the collections of bubbles.
Does anyone know what this might be?

20200102_173512

• bw7hb
• Jan 1, 2020

Edit: I believe pellicles usually form when the beer is exposed to oxygen which may explain why it's just showing up now after taking samples (assuming that this is in fact an infection). I might open the lid for a bit each day to introduce more oxygen and encourage the pellicle to grow since this beer will probably be dumped anyway.

 

[passedpawn]

Look for large waxy bubbles forming, or web-like patterns in the film. Those are common semaphores used by the infective naval forces. Of course, if it grows, that's another obvious indicator.

Healthy wort often has light film like that. What you're seeing might just be insoluble materials from the grain or hops. I almost always have some of that after 2 weeks of fermenting.

 

[passedpawn]

Also, I never open my fermentor until fermentation is complete, usually 10 days (at which time I add gelatin and begin cold crash). Back in my early days of brewing I was opening and testing gravity all the time. I know now that I was adding a lot of unnecessary risk.

 

[bw7hb]

Latest batch turned out great

It was a "grapefruit IPA" extract kit with dry hops, using M44 yeast (which I believe is just repackaged BRY-97).
I used RO water and fermented at 20C for around two weeks before adding dry hops.
Fermentation was done in a stainless pressure fermenter, which was cleaned with sodium percarbonate and sanitized with both starsan and boiling water.

I noticed a bit of strange sweet aroma when I took a sample before dry hopping, but it seems to have faded a lot after cold conditioning and it tastes fine. Maybe something to do with the grapefruit flavoring added to the extract.

Once this batch has been consumed, I plan to try again with S-04 and US-05 and see what happens.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I inspected the beer again today (19 days since pitching yeast), and noticed what might be some sort of pellicle.
I'm referring to the white-ish film not the collections of bubbles.
Does anyone know what this might be?

20200102_173512

• bw7hb
• Jan 1, 2020

Edit: I believe pellicles usually form when the beer is exposed to oxygen which may explain why it's just showing up now after taking samples (assuming that this is in fact an infection). I might open the lid for a bit each day to introduce more oxygen and encourage the pellicle to grow since this beer will probably be dumped anyway.

I believe, based on the picture, these are simply lipids(fat) on the surface. IMO, don't worry as this is normal. Will see basically the same if one stirs baking yeast into warm water and allows it to sit (proof) for a few minutes.

 

[DevilsCups]

Latest batch turned out great

It was a "grapefruit IPA" extract kit with dry hops, using M44 yeast (which I believe is just repackaged BRY-97).
I used RO water and fermented at 20C for around two weeks before adding dry hops.
Fermentation was done in a stainless pressure fermenter, which was cleaned with sodium percarbonate and sanitized with both starsan and boiling water.

I noticed a bit of strange sweet aroma when I took a sample before dry hopping, but it seems to have faded a lot after cold conditioning and it tastes fine. Maybe something to do with the grapefruit flavoring added to the extract.

Once this batch has been consumed, I plan to try again with S-04 and US-05 and see what happens.

Hey man! Reviving this thread!

Did you even get this all behind you?