Racking from primary to secondary

[Corneykeg]

Hello everyone,

I am preparing for my first brew in the near future but running into some setup issues so looking for assistance before I begin my first. Here is the deal. I live in Fl and its about 90 degrees right now and I have my house AC configured to stay at 79 degrees, which is not a good temp for yeast fermentation. My plan is to use a college size fridge and ferment inside of it and use a Johnson controls digital to set the temp around 65. The issue I am concerned about is moving it from their to a secondary without oxygenating the beer or bringing the sediment into the secondary. The concern is having the carboy in the fridge at floor level and it would be difficult to siphon into the secondary withoufg picking it up and placing it some place higher.

I could build something and place the fridge in top of it, but sounds like a lot of work. Any other ideas? I am sure others have the same issue.

I am interested in the secondary for dry hopping and to get a clearer brew.

 

[JonM]

Leave it in the primary for three-four weeks and then bottle, if you have two consecutive stable gravity readings. Lots of us don't ever mess with secondaries. Cheers!

 

[Corneykeg]

Do people dry hop also in the primary?

 

[JonM]

Sure. I do all the time.

 

[Corneykeg]

Thx for the great advice, but if I was to consider a secondary later down the road. How do people get around this issue? I have seen pushing it via co2 , but wasn't sure how easy it is.

I won't be bottling and will be going into a corney

 

[Glynn]

Thx for the great advice, but if I was to consider a secondary later down the road. How do people get around this issue? I have seen pushing it via co2 , but wasn't sure how easy it is.

I won't be bottling and will be going into a corney

Since your kegging just cold crash it in the primary and if you want to dry hop it do it right in your keg

 

[KeystoneHomebrew]

If you're going into a corny, treat them just as you would carboys, but with superior results. Here's a whole article on it.

http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/2013/03/corny-kegs-vs-carboys

 

[Corneykeg]

If you're going into a corny, treat them just as you would carboys, but with superior results. Here's a whole article on it.

http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/2013/03/corny-kegs-vs-carboys

Thx for the article and the idea. What are the potential downsides?

Would the dry hops create any issues, since its my opinion that it would get done in the secondary. However not carried over into the corny keg or bottles.

 

[kh54s10]

You can take your primary out of the fridge and maybe put it on top. Siphon into whatever other vessel then put that vessel where it needs to be. I take my primaries out of my fermentation chamber, put it on top and transfer to the keg then put the keg in my fridge with picnic taps.

 

[pjj2ba]

Thx for the great advice, but if I was to consider a secondary later down the road. How do people get around this issue? I have seen pushing it via co2 , but wasn't sure how easy it is.

I won't be bottling and will be going into a corney

Pushing with CO2 is very easy. That is what I do. You just need an orange carboy cap and a racking cane. Insert the cane through the top opening. Insert into primary, and attach your CO2 tubing to the opening on the side (I put a quick disconnect on mine, that mates with the one on the CO2 line on my tank). Put the tubing into the receiver carboy/keg (purged with CO2) and apply a little gas to get the beer flowing. Technically, I just use the CO2 to get a siphon going, and then have just enough CO2 flowing in to replace the volume of beer as it leaves. That way no air touches the beer.

 

[austinb]

I used to do secondaries but have since moved to just a primary fermentation to minimize oxidation. If I want to dry hop I do it right in the keg in a hop sock to prevent little bits of hops from plugging my fittings.

If you really want to do a secondary then why not do it in a corny keg? Purge the keg with co2 by connecting the gas to the dip tube on the outlet end and leaving the pressure relief valve open. Co2 is heavier than oxygen so as long a you don't tip the keg over while the top is off it should stay full of co2 while you siphon your beer into it from the carboy. Once the beer is transferred you can purge one more time for good measure if you like. You can crash cool this keg if you like to get the yeast to settle even more before transferring to the serving keg.

To transfer this to the serving keg get a picnic tap and pour the first little bit that comes out cloudy because it is sucking yeast into a glass and dump (or drink). Then take the top off your pre-purged serving keg and tilt the keg slightly and pour the beer into the keg slowly so that it gently flows down the side of the keg to the bottom as though you were pouring it into a tilted glass for serving.

You could also buy an extra dip tube that is for transferring from the secondary keg to the serving keg and cut a little bit off the bottom of the dip tube so it sits above where the yeast settles and you could skip the step where you pour off the initial cloudy beer. This would give you even more consistent clear beer but you may lose some beer if there is still some clear beer below the dip tube. If you choose to do this you could also get a dongle that connects both dip tubes so you could transfer with the lids closed (but with the pressure relief valve open on the serving keg).

Again I feel this is completely unnecessary because you can dry hop right in the keg and the difference in clarity between doing a secondary or not is very slight. A secondary does not improve the flavor in any way, in fact some might argue that in fact it may do the opposite to a small degree. Also by adding another step in there you have a slightly increased chance of infecting your beer with an off flavor producing organism.

 

[Corneykeg]

How do you avoid the sediment getting pushed? Just not put the cane down into it?

 

[Corneykeg]

It's amazing how the secondary method seems to be not worth the trouble according to various posts and people.

 

[KeystoneHomebrew]

Please be careful putting a glass carboy under pressure. I can tell you many horror stories.

I hate oxygen when it comes to post fermentation. But that single transfer (primary to wherever) is not having a noticeable effect on your beer as long as you are gentle. You have a major advantage that you can introduce CO2.

Secondary as a practice has as many fans and detractors as all-grain vs extract. Every brewer finds what they, and they alone like. After all, we're brewing for ourselves and our friends. Not to please the masses.

 

[NewBrewB]

I skimmed the other responses and didn't see anything quite like what I wanted to say so here goes:

During primary fermentation, the heavier co2 pushed all of the air out the top, either through a dip tube or airlock. You don't have to worry about some minor sloshing as you move it up. As long as your siphon is good, you will only have minor oxygenation when the transfer to secondary starts. After that it should be alright.

That said, secondary only matters if it is part of your flavoring plan (I have a stout where I add whisky soaked oak cubes and cherries during secondary)

 

[Corneykeg]

Thx for the response. How much would it mix up the sediment picking it up from the floor to 4 foot or so for the auto siphon to works.

 

[Yooper]

Pushing with CO2 is very easy. That is what I do. You just need an orange carboy cap and a racking cane. Insert the cane through the top opening. Insert into primary, and attach your CO2 tubing to the opening on the side (I put a quick disconnect on mine, that mates with the one on the CO2 line on my tank). Put the tubing into the receiver carboy/keg (purged with CO2) and apply a little gas to get the beer flowing. Technically, I just use the CO2 to get a siphon going, and then have just enough CO2 flowing in to replace the volume of beer as it leaves. That way no air touches the beer.

Phil, do you have a photo of this? I'm talking about the QD that fits into the opening on the side of the carboy cap specifically. I'm trying to picture it, but can't figure out exactly how you have this rigged.

Thx for the response. How much would it mix up the sediment picking it up from the floor to 4 foot or so for the auto siphon to works.

You can move it days, or hours, or minutes before you transfer. It will resettle fairly quickly. I normally move my fermenter about an hour before siphoning while I gather up and sanitize my bottles and things.

 

[NewBrewB]

Thx for the response. How much would it mix up the sediment picking it up from the floor to 4 foot or so for the auto siphon to works.

I move carboys (with handles) from my basement to the 1st for kitchen if I am transferring.

 

[austinb]

Thx for the response. How much would it mix up the sediment picking it up from the floor to 4 foot or so for the auto siphon to works.

I think you may be a little overly concerned about the clarity of your beer. Unless you are entering it in a competition the clarity doesn't really matter that much. Clear beer doesn't taste any better than hazy beer.

Personally I prefer slightly cloudy beer because it feels more authentic to me, if it is too clear then it starts to remind me of BMC beer or large scale "craft" breweries which put out mostly average beers. There are lots of smaller microbreweries out there that brew great beer and often times it is unfiltered and slightly hazy.

If you really must have clear beer then I would suggest investing in a homebrew filtration system. You already have half of the equipment necessary with the kegs so you can use co2 to push the beer from one keg through the filter to another keg.

 

[markklug]

Phil, do you have a photo of this? I'm talking about the QD that fits into the opening on the side of the carboy cap specifically. I'm trying to picture it, but can't figure out exactly how you have this rigged.

Subscribed, and curious also on this. Not a transfer method I had considered. Guessing you could treat the small cap extension like a piece of tubing and clamp on an MFL fitting, although Im not sure that would qualify as a QD......but inquiring minds want to know for sure.

 

[pjj2ba]

It's amazing how the secondary method seems to be not worth the trouble according to various posts and people.

This is true, but people should keep in mind that whichever method you chose, it does impact the final flavor of the beer. That should be the deciding factor in which method your choose. Generally, the paler, the lower the ABV, and the lower the hop rates, the more noticeable the difference in the final product. Even given the taste difference, some don't feel the benefit is worth it. Others do.

I would also advise those who have been doing it one way for a while, try it the other way occasionally. As we all gain experience, our beers improve. With more skill, perhaps the now the other method might result in a preferable product. I like to transfer to a keg for aging promptly when fermentation is over, that being said, sometimes I end up doing an extended primary. I can taste the difference, and prefer a quick transfer. The beer is by no mean bad in any way, just different.

Phil, do you have a photo of this? I'm talking about the QD that fits into the opening on the side of the carboy cap specifically. I'm trying to picture it, but can't figure out exactly how you have this rigged.

I'll try and take a photo tonight. I have this fitting below stuck in the side port and the corresponding female fitting at the end of the tubing that goes to my tank. It was a VERY snug fit and I had to heat the carboy cap a fair bit to get the fitting in

Male Fitting from McMaster
Female fitting

Also I'm VERY CAREFUL when using CO2 and glass. I always turn the pressure to zero, open the valve, and then slowly increase the pressure until the flow starts and then back it off until it is barely flowing

 

[austinb]

You may also want to listen to the Basic Brewing Radio podcast episode from 5/24/12. They discuss the results of a secondary vs primary only experiment. While there was a noticeable difference in clarity when the beers were still in the fermenters, once it was in the bottle there was no noticeable difference in clarity. They also compared flavors with both a Belgian beer and a pale ale. With the Belgian beer the blind taste test indicated a slight preference for the primary only beer. For the pale ale one taster noticed no difference at all in flavor and the other one only a very slight difference and stated that the primary only one tasted a little softer. Basically the results indicate there is little to no difference in either clarity or flavor.

I only recently started primary only fermentation but I am totally on board with it now, I haven't noticed any difference in the clarity of my kegged beer. I actually feel it may have improved my beer also so maybe I was getting slight oxidation during the transfer process. In my opinion most of the time a secondary is just an extra step with no added benefit but with added risk of oxidation or infection. However, if you are brewing a beer that will age in the fermenter for more than a month then I would probably suggest moving it to a co2 purged carboy after 3 or 4 weeks.

 

[pjj2ba]

Here's my Carboy cap set up for siphoning

Stainless steel racking tube - will last a lifetime - no breaking

 

[KeystoneHomebrew]

That image should get a "sticky" to the forums. I always have a hard time describing it without actually showing it.

And for "Stainless Only" people like me, they make the same gas connections in SS.

 

[Corneykeg]

I think pressurizing the carboy would scare me away as a rookie. Maybe I am worrying too much about temporarily lifting it up to a higher level for the racking to secondary.

 

[MindenMan]

Sure. I do all the time.

I will plead ignorance here, but from what I have read leaving hops in the keg gives a "grassy" flavor. Are there some hops that are more or less prone to this?

 

[pjj2ba]

I think pressurizing the carboy would scare me away as a rookie. Maybe I am worrying too much about temporarily lifting it up to a higher level for the racking to secondary.

I still let gravity do most of the work. Carboy on a table and keg on the floor. I just use the gas to get the siphon started, and then back WAY off on the pressure. Keeps any O2 from getting in the carboy as the beer level drops.

Get yourself some milk cartons if you are nervous about lifting carboys

 

[Corneykeg]

Not worried about picking it up, but the shaking of the carboy during the movement for sediment and oxygenation. It will be my first time so I might be overly cautious

 

[austinb]

Not worried about picking it up, but the shaking of the carboy during the movement for sediment and oxygenation. It will be my first time so I might be overly cautious

As long as your aren't vigorously shaking it you aren't going to disturb the sediment very much and any sediment that is disturbed will likely settle again very quickly. You also are not going to oxygenate the beer when you move it of he airlock is still on. The concern over oxygenation comes with transferring it to another vessel (carboy, keg or bottling bucket). You can purge the other vessel with co2 and nearly eliminate any oxidation completely. That said many people still transfer to secondaries without purging and then transfer to a bottling bucket without purging as home brewers have done for years. If they are careful about not putting the outlet end of their siphon tube to the bottom of the new vessel to limit splashing and not shaking it up too much after transferring they have absolutely no issues with oxidation. You have co2 on your side so if you just take the extra step to purge anything you transfer into you should have nothing to worry about.

 

[Ivypunx]

Use a auto siphon to rack it from one vessel to the next. As long as there is not spashing and all things are sanitized you should be just fine