Questions About First BJCP Competition This Weekend

[3toes]

I've been homebrewing for about 6 years now, and just entered my first BJCP competition a few weeks ago. The award ceremony is this weekend, and I'm really looking forward to getting some feedback on my beer. But I have a few questions for folks who've done this before...

According to the host/venue, there are 230 entries (among 161 participants), and all styles were accepted. I entered a Festbier (4B) and a Baltic Porter (9C).

What happens if I'm the only entry in those categories?

What can I expect in the way of feedback on my beers? Do they give you enough detail to where you could correct anything that wasn't to style the next time you brew?


I'm anxious to see how I do, but definitely don't have any expectations. They're doing some "best in show" awards as well, and one of those will be chosen by the host brewery to be brewed on their equipment and featured in their tap room. It will also serve as their Pro-Am entry for Great American Beer Fest 2020.

 

[Qhrumphf]

According to the host/venue, there are 230 entries (among 161 participants), and all styles were accepted. I entered a Festbier (4B) and a Baltic Porter (9C).

What happens if I'm the only entry in those categories?

Most comps will combine smaller categories together and judge/award as one unit. This is usually done (or at least the attempt is made) to combine in ways that make sense for judging together (say, combing all the lighter lagers together), but it'll be up to the comp how they want to do it. It can also make the awards look a little odd unless you're aware of it (and depending on how the comp configures whatever software they're using)- it might look like one category has only a 1st and 3rd and another category has only a 2nd, when in actuality they were judged/awarded together.

The corrolary is a really large category can be split up, either into smaller chunks judged independently (you'll often see American IPA, Specialty IPA, and/or Double IPA as their own categories), or just split among multiple judge sets, with a mini-BOS done to determine overall winners (where the best beers from each judge group are taken and reevaluated side by side by the highest ranking judges from each group to pick the winners, disregarding previous scores and without filling out new sheets).

What can I expect in the way of feedback on my beers? Do they give you enough detail to where you could correct anything that wasn't to style the next time you brew?

That will heavily depend on the judges you get. Some judges are better than others.
And while there's a general increase in quality/accuracy/usefulness of sheets as the judge rank/experience goes up (Apprentice/Provisional/Rank Pending<Recognized<Certified<National<Master<Grand Master, non-BJCP and other qualifications are wild cards, I'd give deference to Cicerone, and unfortunately pro brewers who aren't also BJCP or Cicerone have a habit/reputation of really bad sheets), that's not always the case. I've seen brand new Provisional and Rank Pending judges write better, more accurate, more useful sheets than long-standing National judges. Though the bar for Master and GM ranks is VERY high, and I seldom see a bad sheet come from those ranks.

A very high quality sheet is going to describe the perception of the beer in such detail that you can envision every aspect and character solely by that description. And then elaborate on every technical and stylistic flaw, and tell you how to correct it, in a way that doesn't make assumptions of what you did.

Even then, regardless of ranks, and regardless of sheet detail/quality, you're getting a single snapshot. You're dealing with how that comp handled your entry, the setting it was judged in, and the particular objective sensitivities and subjective biases (conscious or otherwise) of that set of judges. You'll get the most useful results by submitting the same beer to multiple different comps, and seeing where the overlaps are.

 

[3toes]

Awesome info, thanks so much, I really appreciate it!

 

[HB_ATL73]

Ive been brewing on an off for a few years now and am interested in starting to enter competition to just see how some of my beer would fare. 3toes how was your first experience doing a comp?

I live in GA and I've had a hard time finding information on competitions- If anyone has resources on dates/locations of competitions that would be very helpful

 

[Qhrumphf]

The BJCP and AHA both have the sanctioned competition calendar listed on their respective websites.

 

[TheMadKing]

Ive been brewing on an off for a few years now and am interested in starting to enter competition to just see how some of my beer would fare. 3toes how was your first experience doing a comp?

I live in GA and I've had a hard time finding information on competitions- If anyone has resources on dates/locations of competitions that would be very helpful

Georgia has a distinct lack of competitions, some of the few that I've entered/judged that are BJCP sanctioned are:

Peach State Brew Off (january/february)
Suwanee Beerfest Brewmasters Open (february/march
Athens Homebrew Classic (did not run this year for some reason)

Then there's a few in Tennessee as well
Music City Brew Off (Nashville)
Fugetaboutit (Chattanooga)
Clarksville Carboys Homebrew Competition (Clarksville)

http://southeasternhomebrewersassociation.com/sehba/competition-schedule/

Here's a link to other regional competitions that are all part of a competition circuit

Here's the AHA competition schedule which is at least sortable by state. The BJCP comp calendar is obnoxiously unsortable so you have to read the whole thing to find out if there are any competitions near you

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/competitions/aha-bjcp-sanctioned-competition/

 

[Wayne1]

https://www.bjcp.org/apps/comp_schedule/competition_schedule.php

Here are BJCP comps for November and beyond.

 

[3toes]

Ive been brewing on an off for a few years now and am interested in starting to enter competition to just see how some of my beer would fare. 3toes how was your first experience doing a comp?

I live in GA and I've had a hard time finding information on competitions- If anyone has resources on dates/locations of competitions that would be very helpful

Haha I'm not sure if I've had much of an "experience" yet.

My LHBS had a post on social media about some upcoming BJCP events, and I noticed that one of them had the deadline for submission fast approaching. I had some already-kegged brews at the house that I was REALLY happy with, and decided to fill a few bottles for submission. So far my only experience has been dropping the bottles off at the brewery where the event is taking place

I'll be sure to update after the awards get handed out on Saturday!

There's another one in January (doesn't open for submission until December) that I'm actually going to be brewing for, rather than just using beer I already have kegged. It's specifically for Belgian/French-inspired brews, and I don't have anything like that ready yet. Although I do have a good recipe for a Trappist Single, so I'll probably just brew that... I'd love some feedback on it.

 

[HB_ATL73]

Georgia has a distinct lack of competitions, some of the few that I've entered/judged that are BJCP sanctioned are:

Peach State Brew Off (january/february)
Suwanee Beerfest Brewmasters Open (february/march
Athens Homebrew Classic (did not run this year for some reason)

Then there's a few in Tennessee as well
Music City Brew Off (Nashville)
Fugetaboutit (Chattanooga)
Clarksville Carboys Homebrew Competition (Clarksville)

http://southeasternhomebrewersassociation.com/sehba/competition-schedule/

Here's a link to other regional competitions that are all part of a competition circuit

Here's the AHA competition schedule which is at least sortable by state. The BJCP comp calendar is obnoxiously unsortable so you have to read the whole thing to find out if there are any competitions near you

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/competitions/aha-bjcp-sanctioned-competition/

Thanks for the information, really appreciate it.

Just curious are you Gainesville FL or here in GA?

 

[TheMadKing]

Thanks for the information, really appreciate it.

Just curious are you Gainesville FL or here in GA?

Not a problem, I’m Here in Georgia

 

[seatazzz]

One thing I will say, three comps in, is read the scoresheets objectively, and don't get discouraged. It's my opinion that everyone perceives flavors differently, even BJCP judges; a beer you think is stellar may be judged simply "meh" (about mid 20s to low 30's) by one particular judge; whereas another will give it a mid to high 30. Read the comments carefully. From what I understand, judges don't get to see what the other judges have scored a particular beer; so getting 2 or more scores within the same range will tell you that you were either very close to hitting the target, or seriously off, depending on the raw scores, and the comments you get. Use those comments to improve your next beer, or if a stellar score, brew it again the same way and see if you can repeat it. My first comp I entered a Pliny the Elder clone that should have never left the fermenter, it was so bad; I learned from that mistake.

 

[TheMadKing]

One thing I will say, three comps in, is read the scoresheets objectively, and don't get discouraged. It's my opinion that everyone perceives flavors differently, even BJCP judges; a beer you think is stellar may be judged simply "meh" (about mid 20s to low 30's) by one particular judge; whereas another will give it a mid to high 30. Read the comments carefully. From what I understand, judges don't get to see what the other judges have scored a particular beer; so getting 2 or more scores within the same range will tell you that you were either very close to hitting the target, or seriously off, depending on the raw scores, and the comments you get. Use those comments to improve your next beer, or if a stellar score, brew it again the same way and see if you can repeat it. My first comp I entered a Pliny the Elder clone that should have never left the fermenter, it was so bad; I learned from that mistake.

That part about not seeing the other judge's scores is not exactly accurate

We actually sit across the table from the other judge judging the same beer, and we both evaluate it separately, and then discuss. Usually the competition director would like a spread of no more than 4 points between judges. so if we wildly disagree on ours scores we'll discuss it and see where maybe we missed an off flavor, or maybe we were misreading the style guidelines and adjust the scores to be closer when we both can agree on what we are tasting. It can get heated but usually it's simply a matter of one judge missing something and the other picking up the slack.

The rest of what you said is good, but also take into account the fact that the beer sitting in front of the judges has been bottled, warmed up, shipping or dropped off somewhere, stored at who knows what temperature for awhile, then cooled and served. So sometimes it will taste completely different from what went into the bottle.

Judging is absolutely subjective and influenced by a lot of factors so it's a very good idea not to get discouraged by a single entry if you think the beer is great.

I just recently entered 2 competitions with the same beers. One American Stout and one märzen. The American Stout won a gold medal with a score of 41 in one competition and only scored a 30 in the other. The Märzen scored a 23 in one competition and then won a bronze medal with a score of 34 in the other... So with spreads like that who knows what happened

 

[Qhrumphf]

From what I understand, judges don't get to see what the other judges have scored a particular beer.

This isn't correct. Judges are supposed to talk to each other, and come to a consensus (not ever, never ever, absolutely not under any circumstances just an average, only an agreed upon consensus by the judges, any comp that uses averages for scores, especially if overriding judges- and I have seen them-, should have their sanctioning pulled) for the final score. And most comps set max deviations (usually 7 points), where if judges are further apart than that they must adjust to be closer together.

Sometimes someone misses something or detects a phantom that isn't there, or isn't familiar with the style being judged.
Sometimes they just don't agree. Or sometimes, you'll have one who's sensitivity to an off flavor is very different than the other(s). You see it alot with diacetyl.

In that last case, a good judge will know their sensitivities and score (and cede to a fair consensus) accordingly.

Hypothetical example:

Three judges evaluate a German Pils. First judge assigns a 42. The other judges assign a 21 and a 23. Why the variation? Well the beer is a diacetyl bomb, and the first judge is nearly diacetyl blind. But he's also a good judge, and he knows this about himself. So rather than "meet in the middle", that judge comes down to a 28 to keep within 7 points, and they assign a consensus of say 22 or 23.

 

[3toes]

That's really good to know.

And actually highlights one of my nightmares about doing this... *I* think my beers taste great. All of my friends and anyone I've ever given a beer to thinks they taste great.

But I have this underlying fear that I'm diacetyl-blind. Or have no real idea what DMS actually tastes like. Etc. etc. Maybe I should go through certification

 

[Oginme]

One of the things that I do when I enter a beer into a competition is to set aside an extra bottle for myself. When I get the score sheets, I sit down with the bottle, a sample glass, and the score sheets and read them as I am tasting the beer. It can help with discovering areas where you may be weak at picking up flavors, faults, aromas, etc.

 

[HB_ATL73]

different from what went into the bottle

How can you combat this? Enter your beer as close to the date of judging? what else?

So with spreads like that who knows what happened

Wow that doesn't give me much confidence ha

Edit: well after reading Qhrumphf post that does make some sense with off flavor detection..etc..

 

[3toes]

One of the things that I do when I enter a beer into a competition is to set aside an extra bottle for myself. When I get the score sheets, I sit down with the bottle, a sample glass, and the score sheets and read them as I am tasting the beer. It can help with discovering areas where you may be weak at picking up flavors, faults, aromas, etc.

That's smart... Wish I'd thought of that. Unfortunately both kegs have since kicked :\

Next time!

 

[TheMadKing]

How can you combat this? Enter your beer as close to the date of judging? what else?


Wow that doesn't give me much confidence ha

Edit: well after reading Qhrumphf post that does make some sense with off flavor detection..etc..

Yes I generally do not drop off/ship my beers until the last possible moment for competitions, I am also very careful when bottling to minimize oxygen pickup (I use a beer gun and purge each bottle), I also use oxygen scavenging caps.

Beyond that it's really out of your hands how they are handled. Most competitions will handle them carefully and store them cold, but I just helped to judge a competition where the entries deadline closed 5 weeks prior to judging. The scores were noticeably depressed across the entire competition, and were particularly low among the light lager styles. With plenty of experienced judges, my money was on handling issues/time

I'm not trying to sound negative of competitions or anything or scare you off. Entering competitions is one of the best things you can do to help improve your brewing abilities IMO. Overall you get good feedback from judges and especially when you see similar comments from multiple judges you can feel a little more confident that it's there.

For example my märzen, while receiving a very wide score spread, had a "caramel aroma" comment from all 4 judges who tasted it and that's inappropriate for style. So I adjusted my recipe because I'm confident that they were all smelling that. I went from 0.5lbs of caramunich III to 0.3lb of caramunich I for my next iteration.

 

[3toes]

Update!

Didnt place, which I wasnt really expecting to... and yeah, they lumped a ton of styles into larger categories. And sadly, score sheets wont be ready to hand out til Wednesday.

My baltic porter got a 40! Super pumped about that.

My Festbier got a 22... not really sure what happened there. I'm anxious to get my sheet back on that one.

 

[TheMadKing]

Update!

Didnt place, which I wasnt really expecting to... and yeah, they lumped a ton of styles into larger categories. And sadly, score sheets wont be ready to hand out til Wednesday.

My baltic porter got a 40! Super pumped about that.

My Festbier got a 22... not really sure what happened there. I'm anxious to get my sheet back on that one.

You scored a 40 and didn't place?

That's very unusual because that's a great score, congrats!

They will almost always lump styles together because the number of judges is limited and each table requires 2-6 judges depending on how many beers are in the flight. Generally this isn't a bad thing as the style groupings are supposed to be done in a logical manner and each beer is judged on its own merits, not by the other beers in the flight.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

That's really good to know.

And actually highlights one of my nightmares about doing this... *I* think my beers taste great. All of my friends and anyone I've ever given a beer to thinks they taste great.

But I have this underlying fear that I'm diacetyl-blind. Or have no real idea what DMS actually tastes like. Etc. etc. Maybe I should go through certification

I have entered several competitions and also stewarded in a few. (Stewards bring beer to the judges and handle clerical tasks for the score sheets). Judges are human, and sometimes after a day of tasting and scoring dozens of adult bevs their palette becomes fatigued. So one factor in your comments/score is the order in which it was judged. Even with a poorly made beer I have seen judges sniff, taste and evaluate with the same intensity as a really good beer.

I have had the same beer get first place, and no place in another competition. I have had score sheet comments by uncertified judges that seemed to indicate that they weren’t familiar with the style, and didn’t have discussions with the seasoned judge nor consult the guidelines.

As seatazz said don’t let that discourage you! Most judges I have observed and those who have evaluated my entries have been encouraging and attempt to help with suggestions to improve. My palate is not trained, I may take one course on flavors to improve my ability, but I doubt I will continue on to judging.

Those who do, have a tough job sometimes, kudos to them.

Congrats on the 40.

 

[HB_ATL73]

Update!

Didnt place, which I wasnt really expecting to... and yeah, they lumped a ton of styles into larger categories. And sadly, score sheets wont be ready to hand out til Wednesday.

My baltic porter got a 40! Super pumped about that.

My Festbier got a 22... not really sure what happened there. I'm anxious to get my sheet back on that one.

Nice!..i think? Based on what everyone was posting...medals with scores of 41.. you didnt even place? Sounds like you at least had a good start to competition.congrats!

 

[3toes]

Thanks all, much appreciated!

Definitely not discouraged! I'll be back on Wednesday with my score sheets

 

[Amadeo38]

Thanks all, much appreciated!

Definitely not discouraged! I'll be back on Wednesday with my score sheets

Nice job with the porter! There’s probably a little notation next to your score that says “2nd rnd” which means your beer got “pushed” to a mini best-of-show and judged amongst a number of other similar-ish beers that also got pushed from their respective categories. Depending on how many were in that mini-BOS, it’s actually pretty common to have a high score like 40 and not get a medal. I’ve had to 42’s recently fail to medal for that reason - it just didn’t stand out in the top three when judged amongst a bunch of other also-great beers.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Nice!..i think? Based on what everyone was posting...medals with scores of 41.. you didnt even place? Sounds like you at least had a good start to competition.congrats!

It happens. I've had a couple 43's I've entered first round of NHC not advance to finals. It's a hard pill to swallow but that's life.

 

[3toes]

Finally got my score sheets back!

Again, really REALLY happy with how the baltic porter turned out. And it's really nice to see the "intended" response from the judges for the ingredients I put in the recipe.

I think I've already figured out what could have gone wrong with the festbier based on their notes... I definitely did hurry to get it into the keg, so next time I'm definitely going to let it finish out on the yeast a bit longer. Additionally, I probably added my finings too soon as well. AND, when I filled my submission bottles, I was at the very bottom of the keg. I tried to pour myself a pint afterwards and got nothing but a glass of cloudy, yeasty beer. Granted I probably still would have had some notes about acetaldehyde in the beer, but maybe it wouldn't have been as bad if I wasn't down into the dregs of the keg.

 

[HB_ATL73]

Nice looks like you did well on that porter!

 

[3toes]

Nice looks like you did well on that porter!

Thanks!

I'm in a bit of disagreement with the 2nd judge on the festbier about the maltiness/bitterness balance... Wondering if he just isn't super familiar with the style. But oh well. Much bigger issues to take care of first

 

[Oginme]

Thanks!

I'm in a bit of disagreement with the 2nd judge on the festbier about the maltiness/bitterness balance... Wondering if he just isn't super familiar with the style. But oh well. Much bigger issues to take care of first

One of the reasons I usually enter a beer into a few competitions if I really am looking for consistent feedback. Sometimes the notes from the judges just does not seem to fit. As an example, I sent in a Helles to a competition this past October. Feedback from one judge was that it was too bitter for style. The other said it needed more bitterness. *shrug*

Contrast that with a few bottles I gave to a distributor for a brewery that I am familiar with who pride themselves on their lagers. He called me to tell me that he thought it was the best Helles he had had and he called over the head brewer to have some. They both agreed that it was an excellent example of the style. That feedback was one of the reasons I switched my entry to put the Helles into the competition.

Four tasters, four different opinions. Emphasis on opinions!

 

[3toes]

One of the reasons I usually enter a beer into a few competitions if I really am looking for consistent feedback. Sometimes the notes from the judges just does not seem to fit. As an example, I sent in a Helles to a competition this past October. Feedback from one judge was that it was too bitter for style. The other said it needed more bitterness. *shrug*

Contrast that with a few bottles I gave to a distributor for a brewery that I am familiar with who pride themselves on their lagers. He called me to tell me that he thought it was the best Helles he had had and he called over the head brewer to have some. They both agreed that it was an excellent example of the style. That feedback was one of the reasons I switched my entry to put the Helles into the competition.

Four tasters, four different opinions. Emphasis on opinions!

Great idea! I need to get some of my pro-brewer buddies to try some beer... One of them is in the process of opening their new production brewery, maybe I'll have to swing by the site some time soon with a care package.