Question for BJCP judges

[Brooothru]

So, I'm getting ready to bottle six entries for a BJCP sanctioned competition and I was going over scoresheets from past contests I've entered to glean any insight from past mistakes. I found a common comment from a few years back that mentioned fill level. Although it might seem like only a cosmetic issue, it can account for points lost on appearance as well as create low carbonation levels and oxidation problems.

How much ulege is considered "right" for a standard long necked brown beer bottle? Third of the way up the neck, half way? Obviously it has to be above the narrow opening where the barrel of the body meets the neck, but how much is too little and how full is too full?

It's so rare any more that I bottle. I always try to "cap on the foam", but it often has resulted in gushing that reduces the finished volume. Since it's been two years (pre-pandemic) that I've entered any comps, I'm out of practice and will consider myself lucky if I can even find my counter-pressure bottler.

 

[IslandLizard]

I think the standard is 3/4" under the lip/cap of 12oz longnecks (John Palmer).

 

[VikeMan]

Although it might seem like only a cosmetic issue, it can account for points lost on appearance as well as create low carbonation levels and oxidation problems.

I'm not a judge, but I'm fairly familiar with the rules. Technically, there should be no appearance points lost for fill level. But that doesn't mean that a judge couldn't be influenced by it. First impressions and all that.

It's also true that a bigger headspace would result in lower carbonation in the beer than a smaller headspace. (It's a dirty little secret that the bottle carbonation calculators assume that there is 0 headspace.)

I think the standard is 3/4" under the lip/cap of 12oz longnecks (John Palmer).

The BJCP study guide mentions "an adequate fill level with less than 2” (5 cm) of headspace" in the context of avoiding "Paper/Cardboard." I can't speak to what judges are really looking for, but to me, 2" sounds like a lot of headspace for a competition beer, because it would allow a lot of O2 exposure. Appearance scores aside, and all other things being equal, less headspace means less O2. There's really no way around that.

 

[MaxStout]

I use a bottle-filling wand, the skinniest one (5/16" I believe). I fill to the top, but displacement of the wand leaves about 1.5" headspace. I've never had a "low fill" comment on a score sheet.

I just measured a commercial beer in my fridge (Old Rasputin) and see that the headspace is a tad over 2".

Methinks your previous judges were looking for something to ding you on.

 

[IslandLizard]

After what I said, I started to look around...
3/4" seems a relatively high fill level, while 2" is definitely too much headspace. 3/4" - 1-1/2" may well be an acceptable range. Most craft beer seems to be filled to 1-1/4" - 1-1/2" under the top of the lip/cap.

A proper fill level is important for the quality of the beer, the higher the better, but not too high or they may burst due to expansion in hot environments.
http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/headspace.htm

 

[McHop]

When I'm judging a competition, I'll comment on low fill in the event we have 2 really good beers and need a tie breaker. Realistically, low fills really never factor in too much. If your low fill beer is hands down better than anything else in the flight it will advance.

That being said, I typically look for the fill to be roughly 1.25"-1.75" below the cap before making the note on the score sheet. More importantly, we do look for any rings on the inside of the neck to get an idea if it may be infected or just unclean. This will cost you more points than a low fill.

Good luck with your competition!

 

[Bobby_M]

If you're bottling carbonated beer through a beer gun or counterpressure filler, there is no such thing as a high fill. If it's touching the underside of the cap, great, no chance of oxidation. If a judge dings you for a high fill, it should be considered an error in judgement and they should be confronted about it so they learn. If they note low fill, it's really only meant for contextualizing observed oxidation or low carbonation. In other words, you may see comments like "This beer has some slight wet cardboard character suggestive of oxygen exposure. The low bottle fill may be a contributing factor as oxygen may have been introduced into the headspace during bottling."

 

[Brooothru]

Thanks for all the helpful and QUICK replies. I went downstairs to the brew area to clean bottles, and no sooner than I get 'em on the drying rack my inbox is full with the answer.

It looks like I'll get lots of practice. With a little over 33 gallons, all my keg space is full, so I'll be bottling just about every bottle I can find to open up some free keg space. Finished cleaning 54 bottles, and I know I've got at least another case stashed away in an outside storage building. Oughta' be able to find two good fills each out of that number!

 

[Brooothru]

If you're bottling carbonated beer through a beer gun or counterpressure filler, there is no such thing as a high fill. If it's touching the underside of the cap, great, no chance of oxidation. If a judge dings you for a high fill, it should be considered an error in judgement and they should be confronted about it so they learn. If they note low fill, it's really only meant for contextualizing observed oxidation or low carbonation. In other words, you may see comments like "This beer has some slight wet cardboard character suggestive of oxygen exposure. The low bottle fill may be a contributing factor as oxygen may have been introduced into the headspace during bottling."

Thanks, Bobby. Quick couple of follow-on questions:

I've got a bag of probably 100 oxygen absorbing caps. Do they work? These have been in a sealed bag for at least two years. Have they degraded, and if so will they still at least give a good seal? Since they've been stored I'd like to sanitize them, but doesn't moisture activate (expend) their oxygen absorption capability?

TIA. I'm planning a visit to my LHBS, so I can certainly get 'fresh' bottle caps if need be.

 

[T Murph]

@Bobby_M and @McHop gave good answers to your question. In my experience, myself and others usually agree that 1" to 1 1/2 " is most desirable. As Mchop stated we definitely take a good look at the neck and head space to identify noticable issues that may affect the overall condition of the beer. While under and over fills may not influence a judges score for a brew, it is considered and often times commented on on the score sheet. A short fill most always gets mentioned as an issue to correct although the beer may score very well.

 

[Dgallo]

Every competition I enter, I fill my beers to the cap. They mention “high fill” in the bottle comment section but there isn’t/shouldn’t be any points held against you for high fills. Low fills will correlate with oxidation and lower carbonation levels, so that’s what your dinged on, not the low fill itself

 

[McHop]

My only complaint about high fills is that when opening the bottles there is no hiss of CO2 being released. The audible release of CO2 does provide an indication of the carbonation level to expect going in.

Again, I'll note a high fill but it's not detrimental in the grand scheme of things.

 

[MaxStout]

My only complaint about high fills is that when opening the bottles there is no hiss of CO2 being released. The audible release of CO2 does provide an indication of the carbonation level to expect going in.

Again, I'll note a high fill but it's not detrimental in the grand scheme of things.

Fill one 16oz PET soda bottle with each batch and tighten the cap. When that plastic bottle is hard as a rock, it's carbed.

 

[Qhrumphf]

If any judge is deducting points for fill level alone they're doing it wrong. I generally don't note anything at all unless there's something distinctive (such as a particularly unique bottle or cap) as a way to indicate to an entrant that it's their entry, or if there's something obviously very wrong with inspection/opening (major neck ring, gusher, no hiss opening, bottle is like half empty etc).

In the latter case, that's as far as it goes. No points deduction. No attempting to referee bottle types or label removal (that's the comp coordinator's role, not mine).

Where it can become an additional factor is if there's a problem with the beer. If there's a ridiculously low fill and the beer is oxidized or undercarbed, I'll point that out as a likely cause. If there's a neck ring or gusher, along with infection...well you get the idea.

Generally higher fill will be preferable to low fill.

 

[dmtaylor]

In my view, any judge who reduces the appearance score based on fill level is a dick. It's not a scoreable item. Personally I only comment on ring-around-the-collar, as it can sometimes be a visual predictor of a potential gusher or infection, but not always. But I couldn't care less about fill level. FWIW, anywhere from 1-1.5 inches from the cap seems about average to me. But I don't really pay attention or care if it were zero inches or 2.5 inches or whatever.

 

[T Murph]

In my view, any judge who reduces the appearance score based on fill level is a dick. It's not a scoreable item. Personally I only comment on ring-around-the-collar, as it can sometimes be a visual predictor of a potential gusher or infection, but not always. But I couldn't care less about fill level. FWIW, anywhere from 1-1.5 inches from the cap seems about average to me. But I don't really pay attention or care if it were zero inches or 2.5 inches or whatever.

You are so right.

 

[Beermeister32]

When sending beer to a competition, how do you do it? I looked into the USPS rules for sending beer a few years ago and there wasn’t really a good way to do it if you are a home brewed and the bottles unlabeled. Has this changed? Sending alcohol has many issues whether mail, UPS, FedEx etc. even store shipping of beer and wine has issues in some states I hear.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Shipping beer by USPS is a felony. It's not actually illegal (except in some states) to do via UPS or FedEx but is against their policies so you don't have any recourse if they refuse or even stop and destroy your package (assume someone takes it home and drinks it) mid shipment. Many either simply don't divulge contents, or euphemise them. It also depends on the individual handling it. I've had UPS break a box of beer I was shipping, remove the broken bottles, tell me which ones broke, repack the rest, and send it on its way. I've also had UPS tell me halfway through "shipment contains alcohol, will not be sent to destination nor returned to sender, not eligible for refund" or something like that.

If you have an ethical quandary with fudging the rules or don't wanna take the risk of losing your shipment, only route is to hand deliver.

 

[VikeMan]

When sending beer to a competition, how do you do it? I looked into the USPS rules for sending beer a few years ago and there wasn’t really a good way to do it if you are a home brewed and the bottles unlabeled. Has this changed? Sending alcohol has many issues whether mail, UPS, FedEx etc. even store shipping of beer and wine has issues in some states I hear.

UPS packages declared to be "Live Yeast Samples" or "BBQ Sauce" have been known to contain homebrew.

Disclaimer: This is not an endorsement.

 

[Dgallo]

When sending beer to a competition, how do you do it? I looked into the USPS rules for sending beer a few years ago and there wasn’t really a good way to do it if you are a home brewed and the bottles unlabeled. Has this changed? Sending alcohol has many issues whether mail, UPS, FedEx etc. even store shipping of beer and wine has issues in some states I hear.

I send usps and yes it technically illegal to do so. I will say I’m sending hot sauces or pickles when they ask liquid or fragile. I know some folks aren’t comfortable with that.

as for the other private carriers, ups, fedex, etc, it is only against their company policy to ship alcohol without getting the proper permits as they themselves are legally allowed to ship alcohol. So if you ship this way and get caught you will not be in any legal trouble.

 

[Davedrinksbeer]

I just Steward in Ky State Fair beer competition, no points are deducted for high fill or low fill, it’s just a comment for the judges. Some judges would look at the bottle and comment and some judges took the bottle from me and opened it with no bottle inspection whats so ever. I bottle from the keg and I always fill high to reduce oxygen in the bottle. Good Luck

 

[Davedrinksbeer]

I’ll add if anybody ever has a chance to steward in a beer competition it’s a great learning experience, You get to sit with the judges and hear their insight into each beer tasted and they let you taste each beer when they fill out their score card. Most of the judges asked my opinion of the beer also. I really enjoyed it.

 

[bkboiler]

I judged Friday and even tho we inspected the fill and capping, it is not a scorable item. Only to give helpful feedback if there's some flaw in the beer as sometimes the beer can get damaged in transit (think high heat in truck or hard bump causes loss of cap seal). Sometimes the original beer may not have had those flaws, so if theres some infection or oxidation, but the brewer knows it's not there, then they can disregard our comments, especially if there was some evident transit related damage (or maybe it was a dirty bottle).

 

[BrewDrinkRepeat]

Although it might seem like only a cosmetic issue, it can account for points lost on appearance as well as create low carbonation levels and oxidation problems.

Carbonation, possible (but not guaranteed). Oxidation, maybe (far less likely if the beer is bottle-conditioned).

Losing points on appearance over fill level? Only a complete jerk judge would do that. The Bottle Inspection section does not, and should not, affect any points (for Appearance or otherwise). We are judging the beer in the glass/cup, not the bottle; the Bottle Inspection is simple a checkpoint, one that may or may not have some relevance to an issue noted later in the actual evaluation, but should not affect your score in any way whatsoever.

 

[T Murph]

I judged Friday and even tho we inspected the fill and capping, it is not a scorable item. Only to give helpful feedback if there's some flaw in the beer as sometimes the beer can get damaged in transit (think high heat in truck or hard bump causes loss of cap seal). Sometimes the original beer may not have had those flaws, so if theres some infection or oxidation, but the brewer knows it's not there, then they can disregard our comments, especially if there was some evident transit related damage (or maybe it was a dirty bottle).

It's my experience to check subsequent bottles when I see one that gives concern. That is why 3 bottles are required with each entry. Of course one is held for best of show if it scored high enough to qualify.

I agree @bkboiler fill doesn't affect score but is commonly mentioned as suggestion for overall improvement.

 

[Brooothru]

Shipping beer by USPS is a felony. It's not actually illegal (except in some states) to do via UPS or FedEx but is against their policies so you don't have any recourse if they refuse or even stop and destroy your package (assume someone takes it home and drinks it) mid shipment. Many either simply don't divulge contents, or euphemise them. It also depends on the individual handling it. I've had UPS break a box of beer I was shipping, remove the broken bottles, tell me which ones broke, repack the rest, and send it on its way. I've also had UPS tell me halfway through "shipment contains alcohol, will not be sent to destination nor returned to sender, not eligible for refund" or something like that.

If you have an ethical quandary with fudging the rules or don't wanna take the risk of losing your shipment, only route is to hand deliver.

It's always been a hassle, not with just USPS but also with individual state regulations. Until recently (5 years ago?) it was also a felony to ship alcoholic beverages of any kind either into or outside of the State of Maryland without holding a distributor's license issued by the State. The lobby for liquor distributors had a stranglehold on the House of Delegates.

This presented problems for me since I liked entering the old Sam Adams Longshot competition, but not any hill was too high for this climber! In my second career after Uncle Sam's Navy, I flew for "a large U.S. airline" company and could easily write a pass and hand carry my entries to Boston from the D.C. metro area, but 9/11 changed all that with strict limit on liquids. But I also could get a very deep airline employee discount with FedEx if I would drop it off at the shipping and receiving facility at Dulles Airport, thus circumventing Maryland's arcane laws since Dulles is in Northern Virginia. Humm... spend a day off in airports, cabs and Boston's "T" to get to the brewery and back to deliver a few bottles of beer, OR, get creative with the nature of my shipment and let Fred Smith's bubbas do the heavy lift. No brainer.

It helped that I had just completed a day in class recertifying my required Hazardous Materials training course, and knew the procedures and requirements under Federal regulations for shipping and handling liquid goods via air carrier. I carefully and properly packaged my entries for safe transit and concocted a story line for the shipping agent in case the standard questions about the shipment became more than simply routine. When I got to the office I dutifully filled out the shipping invoice and presented it to the clerk, who started out with the standard questions:

She: "What is the nature of the goods?"
Me: "Liquid samples, less than 0.3 liters, vegetable based, being submitted for analysis."
She: "Is the liquid flammable?"
Me: "It contains ethyl alcohol, but at a concentration low enough to not be considered flammable."

We went back and forth playing "50 Questions" for a while when she finally said she'd have to call someone in Memphis to see if she could accept the shipment. After what seemed like an eternity she got ahold of somebody on the other end who would ask her a question which she'd then ask me, and then fumble the answer telling him, and then corrections followed by more questions. You get the picture. Finally the person on the other end told the clerk that he wanted to talk directly to me. I soon came to the realization that I was speaking with the Big Cheese of All HAZMAT for Federal Express.

He: "Now tell me, what exactly is it that you're shipping."
Me: (sticking with my carefully crafted but entirely true story, regardless of subterfuge) "It's four samples, approximately 0.3 liters in volume each, of a water-based broth of vegetable grains and plant-based byproducts. It contains a low volume of ethanol that is considered safe for air transport, and is packaged in a manner that will resist breakage and leakage. The samples are being submitted for analysis"
He: "Well that sounds like beer."
Me: (in full confessional mode, the jig is up) "It IS beer." (crestfallen, sigh).
He: "Sure we can take it. Why didn't you just say so to begin with?"

After all that worry and fretting it cost me less than $10 to ship four samples to Sam's front door on the outskirts of Boston, and I didn't even have to play like "Charlie on the MTA". But just like Charlie, I never returned to that particular competition. The number of entries was likely in the thousands, and the winners always seemed to be the Frosted Pumpkin or Blueberry Cranapple puree malt liquor type off-the-wall entries. Since you had to agree that your recipe became the intellectual property of the brewery, I reached the conclusion that they were mostly trolling for something unique that they could ride to the next Big Thing in Brewing, and decided that local comps would be my venue for constructive criticism and maybe recognition.

 

[T Murph]

It's always been a hassle, not with just USPS but also with individual state regulations. Until recently (5 years ago?) it was also a felony to ship alcoholic beverages of any kind either into or outside of the State of Maryland without holding a distributor's license issued by the State. The lobby for liquor distributors had a stranglehold on the House of Delegates.

This presented problems for me since I liked entering the old Sam Adams Longshot competition, but not any hill was too high for this climber! In my second career after Uncle Sam's Navy, I flew for "a large U.S. airline" company and could easily write a pass and hand carry my entries to Boston from the D.C. metro area, but 9/11 changed all that with strict limit on liquids. But I also could get a very deep airline employee discount with FedEx if I would drop it off at the shipping and receiving facility at Dulles Airport, thus circumventing Maryland's arcane laws since Dulles is in Northern Virginia. Humm... spend a day off in airports, cabs and Boston's "T" to get to the brewery and back to deliver a few bottles of beer, OR, get creative with the nature of my shipment and let Fred Smith's bubbas do the heavy lift. No brainer.

It helped that I had just completed a day in class recertifying my required Hazardous Materials training course, and knew the procedures and requirements under Federal regulations for shipping and handling liquid goods via air carrier. I carefully and properly packaged my entries for safe transit and concocted a story line for the shipping agent in case the standard questions about the shipment became more than simply routine. When I got to the office I dutifully filled out the shipping invoice and presented it to the clerk, who started out with the standard questions:

She: "What is the nature of the goods?"
Me: "Liquid samples, less than 0.3 liters, vegetable based, being submitted for analysis."
She: "Is the liquid flammable?"
Me: "It contains ethyl alcohol, but at a concentration low enough to not be considered flammable."

We went back and forth playing "50 Questions" for a while when she finally said she'd have to call someone in Memphis to see if she could accept the shipment. After what seemed like an eternity she got ahold of somebody on the other end who would ask her a question which she'd then ask me, and then fumble the answer telling him, and then corrections followed by more questions. You get the picture. Finally the person on the other end told the clerk that he wanted to talk directly to me. I soon came to the realization that I was speaking with the Big Cheese of All HAZMAT for Federal Express.

He: "Now tell me, what exactly is it that you're shipping."
Me: (sticking with my carefully crafted but entirely true story, regardless of subterfuge) "It's four samples, approximately 0.3 liters in volume each, of a water-based broth of vegetable grains and plant-based byproducts. It contains a low volume of ethanol that is considered safe for air transport, and is packaged in a manner that will resist breakage and leakage. The samples are being submitted for analysis"
He: "Well that sounds like beer."
Me: (in full confessional mode, the jig is up) "It IS beer." (crestfallen, sigh).
He: "Sure we can take it. Why didn't you just say so to begin with?"

After all that worry and fretting it cost me less than $10 to ship four samples to Sam's front door on the outskirts of Boston, and I didn't even have to play like "Charlie on the MTA". But just like Charlie, I never returned to that particular competition. The number of entries was likely in the thousands, and the winners always seemed to be the Frosted Pumpkin or Blueberry Cranapple puree malt liquor type off-the-wall entries. Since you had to agree that your recipe became the intellectual property of the brewery, I reached the conclusion that they were mostly trolling for something unique that they could ride to the next Big Thing in Brewing, and decided that local comps would be my venue for constructive criticism and maybe recognition.

Awesome story @Brooothru, I'm a retired manager of a major passenger railroad and have lots of stories regarding transporting beer. As a craft beer lover of more than 40 years I may or may not have used my influence to pull off some crazy but awesome on board beer related events. Like putting local craft beers on all trains. They said it couldn't be done, huh.

 

[kevin58]

UPS packages declared to be "Live Yeast Samples" or "BBQ Sauce" have been known to contain homebrew.

Disclaimer: This is not an endorsement.

UPS has been aware of the "Live Yeast Sample" and "BBQ Sauce" ruse for many years now. Find a new subterfuge.

 

[RCope]

My local UPS shipper is now convinced that craft hot sauce in bottles is a thing. I blame my wife since she's the one that makes me do the shipping. All is good...YMMV

 

[TheMadKing]

If any judge is deducting points for fill level alone they're doing it wrong. I generally don't note anything at all unless there's something distinctive (such as a particularly unique bottle or cap) as a way to indicate to an entrant that it's their entry, or if there's something obviously very wrong with inspection/opening (major neck ring, gusher, no hiss opening, bottle is like half empty etc).

In the latter case, that's as far as it goes. No points deduction. No attempting to referee bottle types or label removal (that's the comp coordinator's role, not mine).

Where it can become an additional factor is if there's a problem with the beer. If there's a ridiculously low fill and the beer is oxidized or undercarbed, I'll point that out as a likely cause. If there's a neck ring or gusher, along with infection...well you get the idea.

Generally higher fill will be preferable to low fill.

As always this is the definitive response. It's simply not a scorable item unless it affects the beer in some way.

 

[Brooothru]

And yet.....

An old adage says that we taste with our eyes. If a fill level looks ('tastes') less than desirable, subjective opinion may objectively shade scores not directly covered by criteria.

Like or dislike are susceptible to shading by non-objective factors. Seeing a low fill may cause someone to 'think' oxidation which they then look for (confirmation bias). We're all capable of falling into that hole, especially when evaluating subjectively. Not a flaw or failing. Just part of the human condition.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I just print the label at home, hand it across the counter, and say nothing to anyone.

 

[TheMadKing]

I just print the label at home, hand it across the counter, and say nothing to anyone.

Same here, I've never answered one question from anyone about shipping beer

 

[WesBrew]

I just print the label at home, hand it across the counter, and say nothing to anyone.

Same for me and so far it’s good. I write fragile/ vinegar or something /this side up ….print my own label at home for ups. Hand it to them, no questions no issues

 

[BrewMan13]

I've never used USPS for reasons already mentioned. I had been going with UPS, but they destroyed a (well-packed) entry for a comp recently. To their credit, I didn't get scolded for shipping beer, as they even repackaged the unbroken bottles. But I got an extra charge, so double the shipping charge to get half the bottles broken and nothing delivered...thanks. Used FedEx once with good results, and going with them until I have a reason not to (they also have a "home delivery" option that is cheaper).
And as others have said, print at home with no questions. I write "glassware" if I have to declare the contents.

 

[bwible]

I’ve seen styrofoam mailers made specifically for shipping bottles. Our local competitions usually get a couple of those. I personally have never shipped beer to a competition. I’ve only entered local competitions and dropped off entries at one of the local homebrew shops.

 

[bwible]

Carbonation, possible (but not guaranteed). Oxidation, maybe (far less likely if the beer is bottle-conditioned).

Losing points on appearance over fill level? Only a complete jerk judge would do that. The Bottle Inspection section does not, and should not, affect any points (for Appearance or otherwise). We are judging the beer in the glass/cup, not the bottle; the Bottle Inspection is simple a checkpoint, one that may or may not have some relevance to an issue noted later in the actual evaluation, but should not affect your score in any way whatsoever.

Oh yeah. Some of them shine a light through the bottom to look for sediment. I guess to pre-judge whether its bottle conditioned or counter pressure filled. They comment on fill level. And the infamous “neck ring” comment, which automatically means your beer is infected before they even remove the cap and sample it.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

An old adage says that we taste with our eyes. If a fill level looks ('tastes') less than desirable, subjective opinion may objectively shade scores not directly covered by criteria.

I recall an article or maybe it was one of the AHA presentation. The guy said that he had started filling his bottles as much as possible but started to get some negative "high fill" comments, so he switched back. I agree that it is probably best to avoid doing something that has a chance of making a judge thing you don't know what you are doing (even if filling high is actually a sign that you DO know what you are doing). The closer you beer look like it just came off a commercial filling machine, likely the better.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

I purposely fill on the high side, for the reasons stated above. And the only (ONLY) shipper we use is FedEx.