MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
When we sparge we are taught not to go above 76C because we increase the risk of tannins. Why then is this not the case during a decoction mash when a portion of the grains is boiled and for a considerable time?
Question abut decoction mash
- Thread starter MSK_Chess
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
leonardoreges
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2016
- Messages
- 110
- Reaction score
- 30
Because its just a portion, not the whole grain bill, and its boiled for a small amount of time, so even if some tannins are extracted theyre gonna be loose into the rest of the batch and not be feel.
It's a pH thing. At the end of a fly sparge, pH begins to rise. This rise in pH begins to leach out tannins when pH approaches 5.8 or more.
But during a decoction boil, pH is much lower, probably in the 4's. So, no tannins extracted, or very very little.
But during a decoction boil, pH is much lower, probably in the 4's. So, no tannins extracted, or very very little.
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
Ok that makes perfect sense, thanks so much. Tannin leaching is not just temperature dependent but pH dependent.
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
Ive watched a few videos on decoction mashing and read some experimental texts detailing if there is any perceptible difference between a docoction mash and a single infusion or step mash. Braukaiser states that although technically there is no need to do a decoction mash many German breweries still do it because it imparts a more robust flavour from compounds in the husks. Can anyone confirm or deny if this is the case? What i mean is does decoction lead to a more robust flavour?
I have run two experiments comparing a triple decoction against single infusion. The decocted batch does NOT taste more robust or more interesting to me. Others such as Denny Conn have done the same experiments and concluded the same. If you are interested in this topic, I recommend you do the same thing. Make two batches with the same recipe, but with different process. Then you will know for sure.
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
Hi DM, were you using European malts? and/or specialized malts particularly crystal malts? reason I ask is that it would appear to me to be the case that the use of crystal malts is in some sense intended to add characteristics that are interesting and in the case of something like melanoidin malt to mimic a decoction setting, perhaps an experiment with a single base malt might be more telling?
If I recall correctly, I used German malts, and probably <5% CaraMunich malt. I don't think I used melanoidin malt. If you are suggesting that a SMASH type beer be made with let's say 100% German Munich malt... I think that is a great idea. I usually do not make single malt beers but I like the idea. Go for it.
leonardoreges
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2016
- Messages
- 110
- Reaction score
- 30
For sure ph has a huge play in extracting tannins, although it's not the only player.
But in decoction mashing Maillards reaction that comes with boiling the wort overtake any tannin that could be extracted
leonardoreges
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2016
- Messages
- 110
- Reaction score
- 30
I've brew some batches of weizenbock style and to me decoction yielded much more complex beer.
Smellyglove
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Messages
- 2,807
- Reaction score
- 807
99% munich 25 EBC and 1% choco. Then you don't only have a smash (technically not a smash b/c of the choco) but you have a great Munich Dunkel if the process is up to par.
Smellyglove
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Messages
- 2,807
- Reaction score
- 807
Have you tried comparing to a longer boil? I've done a few decocs but went away from it because the difference was to my palate non-existing comparing to a longer boil. Comparing to a 60 minute boil I noticed "something".
leonardoreges
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2016
- Messages
- 110
- Reaction score
- 30
As I understand it, the decoction mash was used with undermodified malt to improve conversion. Modern malt (even European varieties) are fully modified or at least closer to it than in the past and don't require a decoction mash but it does appear to affect flavor via melanoidain production and perhaps maillard reaction.
Smellyglove
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Messages
- 2,807
- Reaction score
- 807
I usually do my bocks and especially doppelbocks for 2.5-3 hrs.
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
Actually all i wanna do make is a pleasant Cerveza. I have tried so many times to make a light malty lager than i am at the point of simply giving up trying to brew lager. Of maybe eight batches only two were what i would describe as pretty good, One was a Dortmunder Export and the other a Vienna Lager, the rest were less than stellar and one I threw away. I mean how hard can it be? I wonder if a decoction might yield better results? Can you do a decoction with like flaked maise?
Smellyglove
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Messages
- 2,807
- Reaction score
- 807
Since you're asking this I don't think a Decoction will take your beer from the drain, to a great beer. There is highly likely something else in your process.
If you like so many others are using simple sugars for priming if you use bottles, you have a lot of reading to do
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
Since you're asking this I don't think a Decoction will take your beer from the drain, to a great beer. There is highly likely something else in your process.
If you like so many others are using simple sugars for priming if you use bottles, you have a lot of reading to do
my dear Sir I have a temperature controlled keezer with gleaming stainless steel faucets. I even trimmed it under the lid with blue LED lights. I read all the time, infact I am constantly reading something. Sure i can make a mediocre Lager by chucking in a couple of packets of s-23 but I want to make a great Lager. Nah who am I kidding, i just wanna make something like Sol.
Last edited:
Do you make what you consider to be great ales?
What style are you aiming for that calls for corn?
What style are you aiming for that calls for corn?
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
yes I do, I make pretty awesome ales, so good that I cannot buy ale from the shop, its just not as good, honestly. Pale ales, Porters, Stouts, Smoked beers, IPA's all pretty good. Lagers not so good.
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
I wanna make a Mexican Cerveza, something like Sol.
Could be a yeast thing. Try Wyeast 2206 or WLP833 if you can get those. Or even Wyeast 1007 altbier. Other yeasts do not compare.
Smellyglove
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Messages
- 2,807
- Reaction score
- 807
I actually didn't get where you're at when it comes to technique. But as with all beers, a lager is easy to make, but a good or great lager is harder. Just that I stopped by your post with the question if a decoction will make a better beer, when you've already drained one. You might be way up there working on nuances, or that one which was drained was just terrible no matter who tastes it.
What about your lagers don't you like? As dmtaylor points out, yeast is a big factort. Are you pitching enough yeast (roughly twice as much as for an ale) at the desired temperature (not pitching at ale temps and trying to cool to lager temps after pitching)?
ESBrewer
Well-Known Member
I completely agree with others that decoction should not be necessary to brew Cerveza.
An interesting way to mimic the melanoidin production of a decoction could be something that is described here
http://www.beerandloafing.org/hbd/fetch.php?id=45776
At least it is well known that raising the temp >100C would greatly accelerate maillard reactions. This method would also avoid all tannin extraction from the husks (although it is probably minor at correct pH as dmtaylor described). The story also speculates with the possibility that long lagering period traditionally sedimented some tannins (complexed with protein) from Bavarian decoction lagers.
Anybody here ever tried to do something like that?
In addition to temperature, pH will affect maillard reactions and thus it is more or less going to affect the results of a decoction mash. Higher the pH value the more maillards. This means that lighter colored grainbills that tend to have higher pH (when not adjusted for pH=traditionally) got more melanoidins (and possibly tannins from husks) during decoction.
An interesting way to mimic the melanoidin production of a decoction could be something that is described here
http://www.beerandloafing.org/hbd/fetch.php?id=45776
At least it is well known that raising the temp >100C would greatly accelerate maillard reactions. This method would also avoid all tannin extraction from the husks (although it is probably minor at correct pH as dmtaylor described). The story also speculates with the possibility that long lagering period traditionally sedimented some tannins (complexed with protein) from Bavarian decoction lagers.
Anybody here ever tried to do something like that?
In addition to temperature, pH will affect maillard reactions and thus it is more or less going to affect the results of a decoction mash. Higher the pH value the more maillards. This means that lighter colored grainbills that tend to have higher pH (when not adjusted for pH=traditionally) got more melanoidins (and possibly tannins from husks) during decoction.
Last edited:
For a cerveza, I wouldn't do a decoction. What was wrong with your other light lagers? I would make sure that the mash pH is 5.3, and use near RO water, and otherwise it's just like any other lagers (or ales for that matter).
If we can figure out what went wrong with the flavor, I'm sure it'd be an easy fix.
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
I had success with WLP940 Mexican lager yeast. I tried WLP830 but it was really bland, at least thats what I thought.
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
yup last lager i made was a 3.5 litre starter, first a 2 litre and then a 1.5 litre step up. chilled it and then pitched into chilled wort. Actually i think that the one i threw away was a temperature problem because I set my temp controller to 12C but that is ambient temperature, I suspect that the fermentation was actually closer to 15C
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
This is really interesting question. The ones i made with Pilsner malt had like a honey taste and aroma, I have never tasted that in a commercial lager, others were fruity, I did not like that either, not in a lager even though i tried to convince myself that it wasnt so bad or might go away, it never did.
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
I will play close attention to pH next time for sure. Yeah i just want something light and fluffy. I am in a quandry about fermentation schedule though, i dunno whether to do a long cold ferment or you know a fifty percent specific gravity one and then let it raise for the rest of the ferment. I could even do a pressure ferment. Difficult to say.
On the batch that gave you the honey notes: That seems like it would be from the malt. Where there other malts or only 100% pilsner malt? What was the mash temp? Maybe a lower mash temp would dry it out a bit.
OP
OP
MSK_Chess
enthusiastic learner
yes berermanpete I suspected as much myself and feel reticent about using the same malt, Best Maltz or the same supplier. It was mostly Pilsner with a little Munich as far as I can recall. If it was the malt then i don't know what i could do about that? generally I do a maltose rest at 62C and a saccrification rest at 70-72C and a mash out at 75C. If its a yeast problem I might use 37/40 or some other dry yeast as it doesn't need the same oxygen as a liquid yeast.
ESBrewer
Well-Known Member
Did you do proper diacetyl rest when you got the honey-like off flavor? Pentanedione is much like diacetyl(butanedione) and gives honey-like taste especially in lagers(pilsner malts).
Last edited:
Smellyglove
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Messages
- 2,807
- Reaction score
- 807
I'm also getting honey from my light lagers, using continental european pilsner-malt. It takes for ages to get rid of during cold conditioning. But, I've realized that theres a VDK called 2,3-pentanedione which gives a honey taste. However, The threshold for this is something like 10 times lower than that of Diacetyl, and I'm not picking up any diacetyl in the beers. I'm kinda stumped about this honey-taste. It shouldn't be there.
ESBrewer
Well-Known Member
If it is pentanedione it should go away with a good diacetyl rest at considerably higher temp than lager fermentation. Start before you reach final gravity. Kräusening may also help if you bottle condition.
Perhaps you could try using a lower temp. for the saccharifinication rest. Maybe 65 or 66 C. The Mexican cerveza style is similar to a light American lager and should be quite dry. An adjunct (rice or corn) might help dry it out even more if that is what you want.
Smellyglove
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Messages
- 2,807
- Reaction score
- 807
I don't do a D-rest for my lagers as it's not needed, and I do speise or krausen them in about half of the batches, but still kegging.
ESBrewer
Well-Known Member
You could try with d-rest if you feel you need to get rid of the honey. Speise will be different for ketones compared to kräusening cause there is no fresh yeast to eat these compounds.
Smellyglove
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 17, 2013
- Messages
- 2,807
- Reaction score
- 807
But the thing I find strange is that there's no diacetyl. I'm not one of those who are "immune" to diacetyl as I can't drink a London Pride anymore.
ESBrewer
Well-Known Member
Yes, you are right about the typical taste thresholds, but the fact that there is no diacetyl does not mean there is no pentanedione. Could probably be 10-times more in some combinations of yeast/malt/conditions ?
