Quck oats and extract brewing

[scottab]

So i'm making the brewer's best milk stout extract kit this weekend and was thinking about adding quick oats to the steeping grains and was wondering if:
a. should this be done
b. could this be done
c. what is the best way for this to be done

i figured that since i'm steeping the grains anyway its almost like a mini mash and that way it will get filtered through the same bag i use for the grains.

Is this the best way to do this or should i just skip all together?

 

[motorneuron]

You can definitely do it, but it will only "work" if some of your steeping grains have enzymes to convert the starch in the oats. For that you need base malt (including darker stuff, like Munich, though it doesn't have as much enzyme content), but crystal or anything truly dark (e.g., roasted barley) won't work.

So do you have any base malt as part of your kit? And if you don't, do you have any lying around, and/or can you head to a LHBS to do it? Then you can turn the recipe into a mini-mash with some extra oats.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

Contrary to conventional wisdom, yes you can steep oats with your specialty grains and you don't need a base grain. It won't convert the oat starch into sugar. So what? You won't miss the 0.2% bump in abv.

It will add some body, provide a silky mouthfeel and improve head retention. Since you aren't converting the starch into sugar, it could make your beer a little hazy depending on how much you add. You don't need much. Two ounces is plenty to achieve what I mentioned. You won't get any flavor from two ounces.

If you were using a lot of oats like you would in an oatmeal stout, then you definitely would want to mash the oats with a base grain.

 

[scottab]

ok so the kit comes with (cbw i think) Special Dark LME... would this qualify as my base malt?

the steeping grains are:
8 oz. Caramel 120L
4 oz. Roasted Barley
4 oz. Dark Chocolate

i don't know if this has the enzymes to convert.

 

[scottab]

It will add some body, provide a silky mouthfeel and improve head retention. Since you aren't converting the starch into sugar, it could make your beer a little hazy depending on how much you add. You don't need much. Two ounces is plenty to achieve what I mentioned. You won't get any flavor from two ounces.

that is exactly the result i was going for... the kit has maltodextrin and lactose so it will have plenty of body, wanted to go for that silkyness not a oat flavor. i was thinking of adding 1 cup which would probably equal about 1-2 oz of quick oats by weight.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

You aren't going to get any conversion. I don't see this as a problem. I'm sure others will disagree.

 

[AnOldUR]

a. should this be done
b. could this be done

Should, no.
Could, sure, but I wouldn't.

From BYO:

Since brewing yeast does not secrete enzymes that degrade starch and do not ferment starch, any starch in wort will be found in the finished beer. And as you state, starch in beer can cause haze issues and can also cause problems with microbiological stability. Certain yeasts, such as Brettanomyces, and bacteria, such as Pediococcus, can cause super-attenuation. This means that these organisms can ferment compounds that brewing yeast do not. If starch remains in beer it is an invitation to these possible contaminants to grow and spread their funk into your beer.

 

[motorneuron]

Yeah, that's a good point, I guess you don't really need starch conversion for a small amount of oats. You'll wind up with some extra starch (and haze) in the final beer, but it's a stout so that doesn't matter much. And the proteins will still give some viscosity, and you'll get some oat flavor. So, okay, you can do it anyway.

 

[Yooper]

I sometimes read on the forum that people want to use oats to give a silky mouthfeel, and to increase head retention.

Oats do give a slick silky mouthfeel, almost oily in large amounts, but in my experience oats kill head retention. Other grains (flaked barley notably, carapils, flaked wheat, etc) increase head and body and foam retention, though.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

Regarding BYO, haze is not an issue in a stout. He isn't using wild yeast, so concerns of "super attenuation" aren't applicable. Also, I've never heard of someone who brewed a Brett beer that complained about the beer finishing at 1.002. Microbiological stability? The batch will likely be gone in a month and the oats aren't going to ruin the beer before then.

I've brewed plenty of extract batches using steeped oats (2-4oz) and have observed ZERO problems. It is also possible to brew a light colored beer that isn't super hazy with a little steeped oats.

 

[Yooper]

I've brewed plenty of extract batches using steeped oats (2-4oz) and have observed ZERO problems. It is also possible to brew a light colored beer that isn't super hazy with a little steeped oats.

But 2-4 oz in a 5 gallon batch is a "why bother?" amount. It won't do a thing, so it's not worth using. Sure, it won't cause a haze- but it also won't improve mouthfeel either in such a small amount.

Edit- I remembered this article in BYO. It's geared to oatmeal stouts, but it's got great information about oats in general in brewing for all beer styles for brewers. This would be helpful reading to answer the original questions!
http://byo.com/soda-pop/item/1189-oatmeal-stout-style

 

[Randy_Bugger]

But 2-4 oz in a 5 gallon batch is a "why bother?" amount. It won't do a thing, so it's not worth using. Sure, it won't cause a haze- but it also won't improve mouthfeel either in such a small amount.

Edit- I remembered this article in BYO. It's geared to oatmeal stouts, but it's *** great information about oats in general in brewing for all beer styles for brewers. This would be helpful reading to answer the original questions!
http://byo.com/soda-pop/item/1189-oatmeal-stout-style

I disagree with you on two things based on personal experience. 2-4oz of steeped oats does have an impact on a 5 gallon batch. I already mentioned what the impact is. 2-4oz of steeped oats doesn't kill head retention. It improves it. Perhaps using a larger amount of oats can hurt head retention, but I haven't ever used more than 2-4oz. of oats, so I'll have to take your word for it.

 

[Yooper]

I disagree with you on two things based on personal experience. 2-4oz of steeped oats does have an impact on a 5 gallon batch. I already mentioned what the impact is. 2-4oz of steeped oats doesn't kill head retention. It improves it. Perhaps using a larger amount of oats can hurt head retention, but I haven't ever used more than 2-4oz. of oats, so I'll have to take your word for it.

Well, have you tried the same recipe, one with 2 oz of oats and one without, side by side?

It's not that I don't believe your experiences, it's just that there is absolutely nothing in oats that would enhance head retention. And in "correct" amounts, say 5-10%, it can harm head retention a lot.

So it seems unreasonable to think that 2 ounces of something can change its properties and change the beer dramatically, against everything that we believe to be true about using oats in a batch. Sure, they'd give some starch which might be perceptible in the mouthfeel (doubtful in 2 ounces, but theoretically possible I assume) but to increase head retention? Compared to not using them? Nah, I just can't buy that. Sorry!

 

[AnOldUR]

Regarding BYO, haze is not an issue in a stout. He isn't using wild yeast, so concerns of "super attenuation" aren't applicable. Also, I've never heard of someone who brewed a Brett beer that complained about the beer finishing at 1.002. Microbiological stability? The batch will likely be gone in a month and the oats aren't going to ruin the beer before then.

The BYO article is not talking about using Brett. It's talking about a possible contamination because of starches that will be present that the intended ale yeast won't consume. Just because it's a dark beer and you can't see the starch haze doesn't mean the starch isn't there. Your argument to drink it before it becomes contaminated is just bizarre. If you're not mashing, you shouldn't use flaked grains, period.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

Well, have you tried the same recipe, one with 2 oz of oats and one without, side by side?

It's not that I don't believe your experiences, it's just that there is absolutely nothing in oats that would enhance head retention. And in "correct" amounts, say 5-10%, it can harm head retention a lot.

So it seems unreasonable to think that 2 ounces of something can change its properties and change the beer dramatically, against everything that we believe to be true about using oats in a batch. Sure, they'd give some starch which might be perceptible in the mouthfeel (doubtful in 2 ounces, but theoretically possible I assume) but to increase head retention? Compared to not using them? Nah, I just can't buy that. Sorry!

Yes, I have compared beers side by side that had the same extract and malt bill. The only difference was hops and oats. The beer with oats had an inch of foam that survived the entire beer. The beer without oats had a head that dissipated almost completely after a few minutes.

I used oats one day because I ran out of Carafoam. I liked the result and continued to use oats with extract on beers that I felt needed it. I don't brew extract anymore, but still use oats occasionally in small amounts and get the same result.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

The BYO article is not talking about using Brett. It's talking about a possible contamination because of starches that will be present that the intended ale yeast won't consume. Just because it's a dark beer and you can't see the starch haze doesn't mean the starch isn't there. Your argument to drink it before it becomes contaminated is just bizarre. If you're not mashing, you shouldn't use flaked grains, period.

There are starches present in most beers that sacc won't consume, so those beers are also microbiologically unstable in the same context, yet they still are good beers. The OP's beer has 8oz. of maltodextrin. Sacc won't eat that. His beer is already microbiologically "unstable".

Do you filter all of your beers? If not, your beer is less microbiologically stable than it could be. You better order that filter, stat!

There aren't any good reasons to avoid steeping a small amount of oats. Period!

 

[AnOldUR]

I don't use sanitizer and my beer's are great.

The answer to the OP's question, should he steep oats, is no. None of what you're saying will change that. It's bad brewing practice.

 

[Yooper]

Yes, I have compared beers side by side that had the same extract and malt bill. The only difference was hops and oats. The beer with oats had an inch of foam that survived the entire beer. The beer without oats had a head that dissipated almost completely after a few minutes.

I used oats one day because I ran out of Carafoam. I liked the result and continued to use oats with extract on beers that I felt needed it. I don't brew extract anymore, but still use oats occasionally in small amounts and get the same result.

Well, I don't believe you, to be honest. Hops oils will help with head and foam retention, so maybe you used more hops in that magical batch? But, 2 ounces is such a minute amount in a 5 gallon batch that it's like using 1/16 teaspoon of salt in a gallon of spaghetti sauce and calling it better- so it probably doesn't matter all that much.

In any case, if what you do works for you that is great and you should keep doing it.

But to suggest that oats: a. help with head retention; and b. don't have an issue with starch if not converted is just not great brewing advice in my opinion.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

I don't use sanitizer and my beer's are great.

The answer to the OP's question, should he steep oats, is no. None of what you're saying will change that. It's bad brewing practice.

Analogy fail.

There haven't been any undesirable qualities in the beers that I have brewed with a small amount of steeped oats. The sample size is about 25 different batches. I don't think I could say the same thing about 25 batches without using sanitizer.

Simply saying it's a bad practice isn't credible. I guarantee you have never steeped oats because someone told you not to a long time ago. Guess what? You can steep oats and it won't ruin your beer.

The OP will get exactly what he is looking for, if he steeps the oats.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

Well, I don't believe you, to be honest.

Not a surprise.

 

[AnOldUR]

So, your vast brewing history includes 25 extract-with-steeped-grains batches that used flaked oats and no grains that would provide diastatic power.

Suppose you're right. Your 25 batches beats science. You win!




yeah, I'm in over my head, but I suspect that the starches from the oats and the unfermentables from maltodextrin are not the same, but I'm just not that bright and am too drunk to google.

Oh, and which is easier, not steeping your oats or filtering? hmmmmm . . . .

Unless someone wants to join with a better brain than mine, I'll let you have the final post. Good night.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

Suppose you're right. Your 25 patches beats science. You win!

The part that you don't seem to understand is I don't dispute the science. Yes, my oat steeped beer was marginally more microbiologically unstable. Big deal. It's not relevant with homebrew.

The same thing can be said about your non filtered beers, but you haven't ordered that filter yet, have you? The same thing can be said about beers with maltodextrin, but I'll bet no one has ever said don't use maltodextrin because your beer will be more microbiologically unstable.

 

[scottab]

So basically the consensus is that if i do use the oats i should use base malt for the enzymes to convert the starch, and for it to really do anything for my beer i would need 1+ lb... side question, has anyone used the new (cbw i think) dark oatmeal extract?

 

[Randy_Bugger]

I give up. Just listen to whatever Yooper says.

 

[scottab]

I give up. Just listen to whatever Yooper says.

Sorry its not just what yooper said... its also about a bunch of things i've read.

 

[Yooper]

I give up. Just listen to whatever Yooper says.

NEVER listen to just whatever someone says!

Listen to advise about things that are either proven science, proven experience, or make sense logically. Some of the best new techniques and ideas come from thinking outside of the box.

If you can not give a valid reason for something, then expect to be criticized. I think that's right, and fair. Sometimes I'm wrong, so I don't see myself as the authority on this.

I'm just saying that 2 oz of oats (about 1%) wouldn't have the least impact in a 5 gallon batch so it's a "why bother" amount. The rest of the claims (greater head retention, no starch haze) are hard to believe, due to the tiny amount and what is known about oats and other grains. If there were head-to-head blind triangle tests, then I'd buy it.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

The only proof I need is the 125 gallons of beer I made and drank. You choose not to believe my observations. That's fine.