Purposefully under-pitching WLP300/WY3068

[g-star]

Getting ready to brew a traditional German hefeweizen with 60/40 wheat malt and Pilsener. Picked up a tube of WLP300 with an expiration date of 05/25/12, and I plan on fermenting at 62F per JZ in Brewing Classic Styles.

I've also been advised by a different source to NOT make a starter for this beer which will be about 1.052 or so. The idea is to increase yeast growth and encourage ester (banana) production. Wyeast mentions something along these lines on their website about this particular strain, specifically that "over-pitching will result in near total loss of banana character".

Still mulling this one over, anyone have experience to offer? If I go with the standard viability calculator, I have about 57 billion cells in the tube, and Mr. Malty is telling me I need 200 billion. I'm OK with under pitching a bit, but pitching only about 25% of the necessary cells kind of bugs me out.

Thanks for any advice or experience.

 

[Nanobru]

You cant really tell your yeast count for sure with out a micro scope and a very well measured sample. You can always guess, and use use programs to guess for you, but it will always just be that. My two cents: You never need a starter with pitchable yeast, hence the name. The ger/bav hef strains get more flavorful when they are stressed out. ie: under pitched, under oxygenated, under pressure and a warm (70-74) vigorous fermentation. Depend what your going for really.

 

[TarheelBrew13]

I agree with everything Nanobru said.

Fermenting at that low a temp, you won't get a lot of banana without really beating the yeast up. There are several research papers available that deal with water production of this particular strain and the effect of pitch rate, temp, osmotic pressure and oxygenation but Nanobru already summed it up.

 

[bwomp313]

I think that purposefully underpitching is kind of a slippery slope. You get longer lag times which give you more time for infection to take hold. I think a warmer temp is more the way to go. Pitch warmer and ferment warmer. if you don't have temp control you may only be able to make it when it's a little warmer out.

 

[Polboy]

i dont know if this make much sense but i have heffe on schedule in 2 weeks and im gona make 1.5L starter for 11 gal batch (underpitching by 30%), then im gona pitch low, and keep it at 64 till active ferm than rise it up to 68 and keep it there for 2 weeks then bottle

 

[Buckshot]

I have this exact beer in the keg now. Brewed from JZs recipe from that book. Used WLP300. That said, I used a 1L starter and the yeast went nuts! No idea how much I lost on the blowoff while on a stir plate. Pitched, held at 62 and I get plenty of banana. Too much. Next time, I'll try for less.

 

[ChessRockwell]

The idea is to increase yeast growth and encourage ester (banana) production. Wyeast mentions something along these lines on their website about this particular strain, specifically that "over-pitching will result in near total loss of banana character"

I'm not an expert but I think they might be right on this. I used 300 with a small starter in a hefe and got a furious fermentation with lots of banana. I washed the yeast from this and pitched an unknown amount (16oz jar with 1-2 inches of yeast in the bottom) into a small (2gal) experimental batch of what was supposed to be a "banana-bread" ale. Let it ferment warm (70 ambient), it fermented quick and completely, but I got absolutely NO banana in this one. I'm guessing the pitch from a washed slurry of unknown strength could have been overpitching and caused this?

 

[poley]

You'll get banana with this yeast, even by pitching at the proper amount, by letting it ferment at warmer than 62. JZ does it at 62 because he doesn't want too much banana. Let it go at 66-68 and you'll have plenty of banana.

 

[g-star]

Thanks for the replies.

I think I may do a starter and get the estimated cell count up to the point where it would represent a 25% under-pitch, then ferment in the low to mid 60-'s. Gonna cut back on aeration too.

I'm not looking for a banana bomb, something more balanced but where the banana is still noticeable. From what I've read, this approach will get me in the ballpark, I think.

 

[poley]

Sounds like the right approach to me. That's how I like my hefe's, and that's how I make them.

 

[Dok]

I have brewed this recipe and fermented it at the same temp. I know a lot of brewers like to go with this ferm temp but I found that I got the right amount of banana but not enough clove. The result can vary depending on mash, oxygen, fermenter, etc. The mash temp alone will not make the beer great. 300 is a strange beast. I have entered a few and I thought they where great but my scores where between 25 and 30. I think it takes a lot of tweeking to get the result you want. I say do it take notes then let us know how it comes out.

 

[poley]

I have gotten plenty of clove, but I use 60% wheat and do a step mash, then ferment between 60-65ºF in my basement. I don't have a strict fermentation temp controller. Much above that temp and the banana starts to get a little out of control for my taste, but if you like banana, then let it ride up towards 70.

 

[aubiecat]

Owen Lingley of Wyeast talks about the banana to clove flavor with under pitching and over pitching. At 15:30 he talks about it.
I suggest listening to the whole video. Very good information on yeast from a-z.

 

[luke2080]

I've experimented with this a few times, with WLP300.

Fermented 2, 5G batches at 64*. One properly pitched, one under pitched by 50%. You could notice the clove in the properly pitched one, and banana in the other. Would have had more banana if I wanted to ferment it warmer.

And just did this again last weekend. Both 5G batches of the same wort using WLP300. Made a starter with the stirplate for one which gives the correct amount of required yeast (from the calculators, not pretending I looked under a microscope). For the other I did make a 0.8L starter. Enough to grow and get it started, but was still underpitching by 50%.

End result is not overly powerful for the banana, but was balanced. 50% is the least amount I would underpitch. If I wanted more banana, I would ferment this at 68* instead of 63-64. Its nice having two hefeweizen's on tap with that flavor profile difference to serve.

 

[g-star]

End result is not overly powerful for the banana, but was balanced. 50% is the least amount I would underpitch. If I wanted more banana, I would ferment this at 68* instead of 63-64. Its nice having two hefeweizen's on tap with that flavor profile difference to serve.

Thanks for your input. To clarify, are you saying you prefer the underpitched version, and if so, you would not pitch anything less than 50% or anything more than 50%?

 

[luke2080]

I wouldn't pitch less then 50%, to be sure I'll still have an active fermentation that finishes. But that is also because I'm fermenting at a lower temp and the yeast will be a little less active. Just stressed from having so much work to do and farting out banana esters.

So if I wanted more banana flavor, I'd keep it at a 50% pitch rate, but warm the fermentation a few degrees. (The clove really comes out if you stay under 64-65 and properly pitch, reducing the banana)

You'll get a good balance by underpitching and keeping the temp low. You'll still get the clove in it.

Its a pretty wide ranging yeast though. You could properly pitch and ferment at 68, and it'll balance out, although I'd be afraid you'd get too much banana at that temp and less clove. Take a look at the WhiteLabs review page. Many different uses of this, although most of the reviews are people seeking out more banana then a balance.

If you like this type of beer, save your yeast, and for batch two play with the temperature or pitch rate a bit more (but not both, so you know the variables) to tweak to your liking.

 

[DarthMalt]

You'll get banana with this yeast, even by pitching at the proper amount, by letting it ferment at warmer than 62. JZ does it at 62 because he doesn't want too much banana. Let it go at 66-68 and you'll have plenty of banana.

Agreed. JZ explains his reasoning for this: he feels 62F gives the best balance between clove and banana. He's also using a proper pitch at this temperature.

I've used this yeast on several occassions and can fully attest to getting a complete estery mess of a banana bomb at a fermentation temp of only 68F while using proper pitching methods. I find 65 gives a nice amount of banana with some clove backing, while under 65 leaves the banana a bit more subdued. Anything over 65 is just nasty IMO, let alone whatever could happen above 70F as I've read some people suggesting on the White Labs site. Even at 68, I thought the beer was just about ruined. It's an incredibly finicky yeast, as others have mentioned.

 

[Dinklefwat]

Just to add my 2 cents: I recently used WLP 300 to make the Dunkleweizen and Weizen bock from the BCS book. I pitched both at 60*, letting them rise to 63*, and in both cases I got very little, if any, yeast character at all. I pitched the recommended quantity of yeast. If/when I use this yeast again, I'll shoot for a temp of at least 64* and let it rise from there.

 

[DSmith]

This is a very relevant thread because I was planning on brewing my first Hefeweizen with 3068 following BCS and cold pitching, ferment at 62F.

I bought an Ayinger Hefeweizen to understand the style and I couldn't pick up distinct banana or clove. I've had Sprecher's Hefe and it's completely different. I'd be happy to replicate the Ayinger because it was just plain good.

 

[TarheelBrew13]

I had a hefe from a homebrewer last weekend fermented at 72 and the banana was subtle. There's a lot more to ester production than fermentation temp, pitch rate, oxygen levels, osmotic pressure and types of nutrients available. You can't just say temp and pitch rate are the only significant variables.