Problem sparging with Norcal/Jaybird false bottom

[kevink]

I use a Norcal/Jaybird false bottom in my HERMS system's 20 gallon mash tun and I always pull grain through it during sparging.

During mash, I recirc continuously at about 2 liters/minute and it takes about 30+ minutes for the wort to clear. 45 minutes into the mash, I raise the HLT temp to 168 and continue to recirc for another 15 minutes. I'm pretty sure at this point there are no grain bits coming out of the MT (I can see through the silicone hose at the MT outlet). To sparge, I pump the HLT water through the coil and into the MT and the wort to the BK. Both are set to about 1 liter/minute at this point. This is where there's always a problem. Grain chunks (lots of them) get pulled through the MT and end up in the BK. On top of that, the grain chunks clog the MT's pump ball valve, stopping flow. To regain flow, I have to open the valve to let the grain through and then close it to where it was before to maintain a flow of 1 liter/minute. This happens dozens of times during the sparge. It is easily the most frustrating part of the brew day. Yesterday I was able to sparge into a large 300 micron mesh filter to catch the grain chunks. I collected a lot of chunks. I'm worried that smaller grain bits got through the filter, though. The wort was certainly not clear, but this was my first time using oats, so I don't know if that has something to do with the cloudy wort.

What is going on here? I know it doesn't have to do with crush because I mill at 0.054" and the crush looks good. The grain chunks that pass through the FB are large.

This is the MT/FB I'm using:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6328621&postcount=177

 

[day_trippr]

Looking at that last pic in the referenced thread, and noting you ground the edges of the FB to fit the kettle, just how wide is the gap at its widest point?

And - just spitballing with this - is it possible that the gap widens once the MLT has been heated?

Cheers!

 

[kevink]

Looking at that last pic in the referenced thread, and noting you ground the edges of the FB to fit the kettle, just how wide is the gap at its widest point?

The gap at the widest point is about 0.020". It basically fits perfectly. The holes in the FB are much, much, much bigger than the gap between the FB and the MT.

And - just spitballing with this - is it possible that the gap widens once the MLT has been heated?

Interesting question. I guess it's possible, but wouldn't everyone else be having the same problem? The FB should expand at about the same rate as the MT, though. In addition, the vertical parts of the FB should block anything that gets through a gap that was created as the MT heats up.

 

[Bobby_M]

Grain gets through. That's what the vorlauf is for but it really shouldn't continue happen. You may want to try conditioning the malt or using rice hulls.

 

[Vesteroid]

Not sure how to help, I have his false bottom and a system almost identical to yours and have no issues running my March pumps wide open during mash and then doing a slow sparge.

 

[passedpawn]

I suggest adding a hop screen to the BK dip tube. The Electric Brewery sells one "Hop Stopper", but it wouldn't be hard to fabricate one. Yea, ideally no grain would ever get past the false bottom, but in the real world that's not realistic.

I have the same problem. It doesn't take more than a little barley to cause a major constipation problem for my plate chiller.

 

[Vesteroid]

I have one of his hop screen/filters, and for me at least I used it once, and will never use it again. I immediately went back to a hop spider and whirlpool. That thing will clog if you run the pump above a trickle and cleaning it is lets just say not fun.

 

[passedpawn]

I have one of his hop screen/filters, and for me at least I used it once, and will never use it again. I immediately went back to a hop spider and whirlpool. That thing will clog if you run the pump above a trickle and cleaning it is lets just say not fun.

I think I'm going to get one and use it in addition to my hop spider.

 

[kevink]

I suggest adding a hop screen to the BK dip tube. The Electric Brewery sells one "Hop Stopper", but it wouldn't be hard to fabricate one. Yea, ideally no grain would ever get past the false bottom, but in the real world that's not realistic.

I have the same problem. It doesn't take more than a little barley to cause a major constipation problem for my plate chiller.

I don't really mind anything getting out of the BK as I use a CFC. What I'm trying to eliminate is grain getting past the MT's FB, clogging the ball valve, and getting into the BK and causing possible tannin extraction.

 

[passedpawn]

I don't really mind anything getting out of the BK as I use a CFC. What I'm trying to eliminate is grain getting past the MT's FB, clogging the ball valve, and getting into the BK and causing possible tannin extraction.

I've thought about replacing my plate chiller with a chillzilla or similar. Do you think they are they much better with clogging from hops and escaped grain?

And yes, I've occasionally had to swing the handle of my ball valves open and back to free grain that got in there. My false bottom fits pretty tight, so I've assumed it's not a fixable problem.

 

[kevink]

Grain gets through. That's what the vorlauf is for but it really shouldn't continue happen. You may want to try conditioning the malt or using rice hulls.

I get that, but to the point where it clogs the ball valve since it's only opened a little bit? The grain is causing huge problems, completely eliminating a steady sparge rate. I really don't think this is normal, and Vesteroid's response below confirms it. Just trying to figure out what's happening and how to fix it. I don't want to be fiddling with a ball valve for the entire sparge and getting grain in the BK.

I doubt everyone with one of these false bottoms is using conditioned malt and rice hulls. Do you have experience using conditioned malt and/or rice hulls with this FB because you were having problems similar to mine or just throwing ideas out there?

 

[passedpawn]

I get that, but to the point where it clogs the ball valve since it's only opened a little bit? The grain is causing huge problems, completely eliminating a steady sparge rate. I really don't think this is normal, and Vesteroid's response below confirms it. Just trying to figure out what's happening and how to fix it. I don't want to be fiddling with a ball valve for the entire sparge and getting grain in the BK.

I doubt everyone with one of these false bottoms is using conditioned malt and rice hulls. Do you have experience using conditioned malt and/or rice hulls with this FB because you were having problems similar to mine or just throwing ideas out there?

I re-posted your MT picture below.

The T connection there and the relatively inner diameter of those fittings is going to hurt you. I used to have quick disconnects there and the ID was causing problems similar to yours. I switched to camlocks (Bobby_M) and those problems all went away. The only time I have a problem is if I'm choking the flow with the ball valve and grain gets stuck there.

You probably know this, but you're supposed to regulate flow after the pump, not before. I do it the same as you, at the MT. Always have, no issues except occasionally grain gets stuck. You might consider leaving that valve all the way open and regulating after the pump. I don't see how that would make a difference, but it's an easy test.

 

[kevink]

I've thought about replacing my plate chiller with a chillzilla or similar. Do you think they are they much better with clogging from hops and escaped grain?

And yes, I've occasionally had to swing the handle of my ball valves open and back to free grain that got in there. My false bottom fits pretty tight, so I've assumed it's not a fixable problem.

I never used a plate chiller, but I would have to say yes, absolutely! I used to use screens, spiders, bag, etc. for my hops because I was worried about clogs. This last brew I took the screen off of my BKs dip tube and used no hop bags or spiders. Nothing. The hops were free to roam... all 29 oz of them. The whole mess recirced through a Chugger pump and 50' CFC during chilling for two long hop stands at 180 degrees and 140 degrees then for final chilling into the fermenter. Zero problems whatsoever. I'm thrilled that I no longer have to use screens of any kind. Obviously this will not work with whole hops, but I'm okay with never using them again. If I really need to use whole because I can't find pellet, I'll put them in my giant hop basket.

I did use a screen on my BK's dip tube for a while, but Vesteroid is right on- they can't support anything over a trickle when using any pellet hops. I used it maybe two or three times and never, ever again.

Here is mine:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=3150363&postcount=28

 

[passedpawn]

In that case, what CFC are you using? I'd love to freeball my hops right into the kettle just as you're doing.

I never used a plate chiller, but I would have to say yes, absolutely! I used to use screens, spiders, bag, etc. for my hops because I was worried about clogs. This last brew I took the screen off of my BKs dip tube and used no hop bags or spiders. Nothing. The hops were free to roam... all 29 oz of them. The whole mess recirced through a Chugger pump and 50' CFC during chilling for two long hop stands at 180 degrees and 140 degrees then for final chilling into the fermenter. Zero problems whatsoever. I'm thrilled that I no longer have to use screens of any kind. Obviously this will not work with whole hops, but I'm okay with never using them again. If I really need to use whole because I can't find pellet, I'll put them in my giant hop basket.

I did use a screen on my BK's dip tube for a while, but Vesteroid is right on- they can't support anything over a trickle when using any pellet hops. I used it maybe two or three times and never, ever again.

Here is mine:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=3150363&postcount=28

 

[kevink]

You probably know this, but you're supposed to regulate flow after the pump, not before. I do it the same as you, at the MT.

I do not regulate flow at the MT. I do it after the pump. I have never had any restrictions/clogs at either of the Ts on the MT.

Thanks for thinking about this. Keep the ideas coming!

 

[kevink]

In that case, what CFC are you using? I'd love to freeball my hops right into the kettle just as you're doing.

I made it, but I don't have a picture of it right now. It's just the basic 25' long 3/8" OD copper tube in a garden hose. Do it, you will love it. Just turn the pump off when you add the pellets so they don't get in the dip tube. I gave them a minute or two to break apart before turning the pump back on.

 

[passedpawn]

Got it, thanks. Before I bought this plate chiller, I was going to make the CFC. I think I'll just ask santa for one, maybe with that convoluted copper tubing.

I made it, but I don't have a picture of it right now. It's just the basic 25' long 3/8" OD copper tube in a garden hose. Do it, you will love it. Just turn the pump off when you add the pellets so they don't get in the dip tube. I gave them a minute or two to break apart before turning the pump back on.

 

[burdbrew]

I had some issues with the same false botton. Grain would get past, even after an hour of rims. I use a bottom draining keg to mash.

I added a wilser bag to my keg. It solved that problem and helped with drainage issues related to the grain compressing. Works great and makes clean up easy. Got the idea from a yooper post.