please save my wine

[Timofey Gorlov]

I crushed 7 gallons of white muscadine grape juice from fresh muscadines, put 10 Camden tablets, yeast nutrition, enzymes. Also I added corn sugar to increase gravity up to 11% potential alcohol. After 24 hours I added Lanvin EC-1118 that I got from local store. After 48 hours there is no any single bubble came out of my carboy!!!! What can be the problem???


Before, I did a lot of apple ciders and after I added "Red star" blanc yeast fermantation started within 2-3 hours. This time I used Lanvin EC-1118 for the first time. What can be wrong? Dead yeast or something else??

 

[Seamonkey84]

Was it just one packet of yeast and did you rehydrate before pitching? 7gal should of been 7 Camden tablets, may have to let it degas longer but the domestic yeast is resistant to the sulfites anyway. Give it a good stir and and see if it’s fizzing, you might have a leak in the lid and it’s not building pressure to make bubbles.
What temp is the brew sitting at? Did you take a gravity reading?

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

Was it just one packet of yeast and did you rehydrate before pitching? 7gal should of been 7 Camden tablets, may have to let it degas longer but the domestic yeast is resistant to the sulfites anyway. Give it a good stir and and see if it’s fizzing, you might have a leak in the lid and it’s not building pressure to make bubbles.
What temp is the brew sitting at? Did you take a gravity reading?

I rehydrated one packet of yeast in a warm water, steered it for about a minute. Then I steered the wine for about 2-3 minutes. There is no leak (see the picture, fluid in my bubblier is not in equilibrium state.) Temperature is 70-75 degrees. You can see the gravity measurement at one of my picture.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sulfite isn't one-size-fits-all.
The anti-microbial action is completely dependent on pH. Did you measure it by chance?
Muscadine grapes are notoriously acidic, so I'm not surprised it's not fermenting.

Take off the airlock. Make sure you are in a ventilated area. Aerate it like crazy; pour it back and forth from one vessel to another through a strainer a dozen times times or use a drill stir tool for like 10-15 minutes. Oxygen inactivates the sulfite.
Leave it without the airlock, but covered with a towel for another day.
Then pitch your yeast.

Cheers

 

[bernardsmith]

Sulfite isn't one-size-fits-all.
The anti-microbial action is completely dependent on pH. Did you measure it by chance?
Muscadine grapes are notoriously acidic, so I'm not surprised it's not fermenting.

Take off the airlock. Make sure you are in a ventilated area. Aerate it like crazy; pour it back and forth from one vessel to another through a strainer a dozen times times or use a drill stir tool for like 10-15 minutes. Oxygen inactivates the sulfite.
Leave it without the airlock, but covered with a towel for another day.
Then pitch your yeast.

Cheers

Piggy backing on RPH_Guy, I would argue that if you intend to repitch the yeast you upend your process and create a small starter for the yeast (say 1 cup of water with a tablespoon of sugar or a cup of non sorbated apple juice and wait until you see that the yeast is actively fermenting and then you add 1 cup from your must to the starter and watch and wait until you see that active and you keep on repeating this taking a measure of the must and adding it to the starter doubling the volume of the starter each time you add must until all the must is now with the starter. That process helps ensure that if there are systemic problems in the must you are "neutralizing" them step by step rather than dumping the yeast into 7 gallons of problem must.

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

Sulfite isn't one-size-fits-all.
The anti-microbial action is completely dependent on pH. Did you measure it by chance?
Muscadine grapes are notoriously acidic, so I'm not surprised it's not fermenting.

Take off the airlock. Make sure you are in a ventilated area. Aerate it like crazy; pour it back and forth from one vessel to another through a strainer a dozen times times or use a drill stir tool for like 10-15 minutes. Oxygen inactivates the sulfite.
Leave it without the airlock, but covered with a towel for another day.
Then pitch your yeast.

Cheers

oh, F... this is most likely what happened. I blended the whole grape with skin and squeezed almost 90% juice out of it. Do you think that aeration will help to reduce acidity? Can I use air compressor and pipe instead of pouring it back and forth? Also why not to use CaCO3 or KHCO3 to de-acidify it? I will do it tonight, do you think that my old yeast is dead and I will need to add new one?

 

[bernardsmith]

Before you add any base to try to reduce the acidity is there any way you might measure how acidic your wine is? pH paper is the simplest but is only ball park accurate. If you have access to a pH meter that will give you a far more accurate idea. I wouldn't simply add a whack of Calcium Chloride without having an idea what the pH is and what pH this amount of Ca Cl will provide. You MIGHT use taste as a guide but I don't know that pH is related to taste as much as TA is

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

Before you add any base to try to reduce the acidity is there any way you might measure how acidic your wine is? pH paper is the simplest but is only ball park accurate. If you have access to a pH meter that will give you a far more accurate idea. I wouldn't simply add a whack of Calcium Chloride without having an idea what the pH is and what pH this amount of Ca Cl will provide. You MIGHT use taste as a guide but I don't know that pH is related to taste as much as TA is

Thanks. I'm already looking for it in local stores like Walmart but i cannot find it. May be I will need to order it online and get it tomorrow.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The acidity increases the effectiveness of the sulfite. High levels of sulfite inhibit microbes, including the yeast you pitched. It's likely dead or very debilitated, especially with the way it was pitched.

Aeration doesn't reduce the acidity, it eliminates the sulfite (turns it into sulfate).
An air compressor will probably work, but you should let it run for maybe 30-45 minutes.

I'd also suggest a proper rehydration protocol, letting the yeast hydrate in hot water (around 95°F) for 15-20 minutes, and then slowly atemporating with must every 5 minutes.
Healthy yeast make clean wine.

As @bernardsmith mentioned, I'd avoid taking steps to reduce the acidity at this point unless you can measure it. Acidity is a good thing, in the proper amount.
Also, calcium carbonate may lend a chalky flavor which takes a long time to drop out.

Hope this makes sense

 

[Seamonkey84]

If you add anything, use potassium carbonate as it’s less noticeable in flavor. Also, most recipes I’ve seen using grapes use sugar and water to adjust ph and gravity, but then it’s not as full bodied.

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

I followed advises from yesterday but did not have any success. This is what I've got:

ph 3.1 (see the picture)
temperature 70F
I have aerated my wine with air compressor for 1 hour.
At the same time I pre-soaked my Lalvin EC-1118 yeast in a warm water with 1 teaspoon of sugar during 1 hour. At the end I have got nice foam.
Mixed everything and no result again.

Tonight I think I need to lower acidity by potassium carbonate. Which ph would be ok??? I don't want to add some water+sugar because I think I will loose taste.

 

[SdWydler]

How much primary ingredients did you start with? Water grapes ? Etc ? What was your back reading before the yeast was added? And temp?

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

How much primary ingredients did you start with? Water grapes ? Etc ? What was your back reading before the yeast was added? And temp?

I wrote about it in the beginning.
Pure grape juice 7 gal (blended with skins and squeezed). Temp is 70 F. Added corn sugar for Brix = 20 (11% of potential alcohol). Yeast nutrient, pectic enzymes, 1 bag of yeast.

 

[hamiltonkiler]

I’ve never done grape so this may not be relevant but I just sprinkle yeast on top of mash in a five gallon bucket then cover with a towel. Yeast needs oxygen.
I would like to think in the carboy with an air lock your sulfite is just pushing the gas off your mash without enough room for the yeast to survive. 1118 is very aggressive.
Maybe I’m way out on this. If I am I apologize

 

[Yooper]

Sulfite isn't one-size-fits-all.
The anti-microbial action is completely dependent on pH. Did you measure it by chance?
Muscadine grapes are notoriously acidic, so I'm not surprised it's not fermenting.

Take off the airlock. Make sure you are in a ventilated area. Aerate it like crazy; pour it back and forth from one vessel to another through a strainer a dozen times times or use a drill stir tool for like 10-15 minutes. Oxygen inactivates the sulfite.
Leave it without the airlock, but covered with a towel for another day.
Then pitch your yeast.

Cheers

Do this again and again- you overdosed on the campden by about 1/3 or so. That's a pretty high dose, and will inhibit fermentation.

I followed advises from yesterday but did not have any success. This is what I've got:

Tonight I think I need to lower acidity by potassium carbonate. Which ph would be ok??? I don't want to add some water+sugar because I think I will loose taste.

You don't really need to worry overmuch about the actual pH at this point- but the total acid instead. You can get a very cheap acid test kit for this- and it's easy to use.

I can tell you that I"ve been using home grown and wild grapes for about 25 years, and ALL of them need to be diluted with water and sugar to make an acceptable wine. Muscadine juice straight may taste ok (does it? I think it's too tart for me), but once all of the sugar is fermented out it's undrinkable without dilution.

You will need to use the potassium carbonate or calcium carbonate- but you'll want to dilute it first. Jack Keller is a great go-to source for wild grapes, and I think this will help you save this batch: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/muscadine.asp

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

Do this again and again- you overdosed on the campden by about 1/3 or so. That's a pretty high dose, and will inhibit fermentation.




You don't really need to worry overmuch about the actual pH at this point- but the total acid instead. You can get a very cheap acid test kit for this- and it's easy to use.

I can tell you that I"ve been using home grown and wild grapes for about 25 years, and ALL of them need to be diluted with water and sugar to make an acceptable wine. Muscadine juice straight may taste ok (does it? I think it's too tart for me), but once all of the sugar is fermented out it's undrinkable without dilution.

You will need to use the potassium carbonate or calcium carbonate- but you'll want to dilute it first. Jack Keller is a great go-to source for wild grapes, and I think this will help you save this batch: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/muscadine.asp

You consider to dilute my batch and it will solve both problem with campden and acidity? By the way I put earlier 1 campden for half a gallon of pear juice and it fermented like a crazy. The same dose for blackberry juice started to "boil" without any external yeast. So I concluded that overdose is not an issue. By the way - how much do you think I can keep this batch without sequences? I'm thinking - can I order some needed things online and wait couple of days or I have to do something with it today?

 

[Bubbles2]

Per most instructions on making wine... Which I make Muscadine from my vines....Campden 24 hours BEFORE Any Pitch.
EDIT- I did see you waited 24 hours, however it was a little stronger than required, which I am sure you know by now... anyhow good link just the same
https://blog.eckraus.com/add-campden-tablets-to-wine

Air compressor sounds nasty, the oil and crap from the tank of years gone by in my wine...Yuck. To each is own.
PH is different than acid albeit both are important. Many like to dial in PH and ACID before pitch too.

https://winemakermag.com/technique/1650-monitoring-adjusting-ph

You are air locking way to early...Your yeast should get 02 via degassing twice a day when you open your ferment bucket and stir, I too use the same yeast as you. 7 days for stir and degass and then into that fermentor to get to a settled out fermentation, where it will sit and be re racked 3 times after a month of sitting, so 3 months before it is back sweetened, final acid check and bottled.

https://www.homebrewit.com/making-wine-with-fresh-fruit-general-instructions-and-tips/

 

[RPh_Guy]

So I concluded that overdose is not an issue.

It absolutely is an issue, but not sure if it's the entire issue. The amount of acid is probably also a concern.

Normally you want >1ppm molecular SO2 to control wild microbes. You added 4.7ppm, almost 5 times more than needed.
My advice was to aerate thoroughly and then let it sit for another full day, only covered with a towel. It's important to expose it to as much oxygen as possible to remove the sulfite.

 

[Yooper]

You consider to dilute my batch and it will solve both problem with campden and acidity? By the way I put earlier 1 campden for half a gallon of pear juice and it fermented like a crazy. The same dose for blackberry juice started to "boil" without any external yeast. So I concluded that overdose is not an issue. By the way - how much do you think I can keep this batch without sequences? I'm thinking - can I order some needed things online and wait couple of days or I have to do something with it today?

Yes, actually. You will reduce the acidity (ie, raise the pH), dilute the strength of the sulfite, and maybe make the wine drinkable. You may want to test the TA and pH after adding the proper amount of sugar and water, to get you to an OG of about 1.090 or so. Then, if necessary, reduce the acidity further with potassium carbonate.

I wouldn't add any acid reducing agents at this point, until you get the must set to make a good wine, though.

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

Thanks all, today morning I have got very slow bubbles from my must. Not sure what it was, survived yeast or bacteria but it was scary for me. I added 2g/l of calcium carbonate because I couldn't wait another couple of days when my potassium carbonate will arrive. (acidity reduced from 3.1 to 3.7 ph). After that I added yeast and it started immediately within 30 mins. I will dilute and clean it up from calcium later if needed. I will do the following steps.

Wait 1 month until primary fermentation is over.
Clean it up with bentonite and wait another 1 month.
Clean it up with sparkolloid and wait another 1 month.
Clean it up with kieselsol-chitosan and wait another 1-2 month.
Age it with oak and wait another 2-3 month.
Filter it with wine filter and rack it to bottles.

Am I missing something??
As I understand, the crystals of calcium salt will settle down at the bottom during the last aging stage and the wine will be ready for bottling. Is that right?
Also I think there is no difference to dilute it now or later in terms of final taste. Is that right?

 

[Yooper]

Four finings? Why?????? I use 0 finings (except for pectic enzyme with the fruit, but that's not a fining).

It will clear on it's own. If it doesn't use the proper ONE fining. If it's a yeast haze, sparkolloid works well. A snip from JackKeller.net on finings:
The most common positively charged (+) particulate is protein, although some metallic compounds also carry positive charges. Protein is easily removed using negatively charged (-) fining agents such as tannin, yeast, bentonite, and Kieselsol. There are, however, numerous negatively charged particulates, including tannin, phenolics, anthocyanins, yeast, and bacteria. These are removed using positively charged fining agents such as gelatin, albumin, casein, Isinglass, chitin (Chitosan), and Sparkolloid. Just a cursory look at these groupings should lead to the realization that red wines, with their natural (or added) tannin, should not suffer from haze caused by proteins, but white wines easily could. This is why commercial white wines are routinely protein stabilized with bentonite fining and red wines are not. Young red wines, when cloudy at all, usually can trace their cloudiness to pectin or a negatively charged particulate.

So plan on letting it ferment for 5-7 days or so, until it reaches 1.010 or below. Then rack to a carboy, top up, and let sit for up to 60 days. Rack again whenever you have lees 1/4" thick or more, or any lees at all after 60 days. Repeat until no new lees fall after at least 60 days in a new carboy. Add one crushed (and dissolved) campden tablet per gallon of wine at every other racking.

After that, if you need a fining to clear up a bit of haze, you can (but you shouldn't need one).

You'll want to sweeten this wine, as it may be very tart. If you do that, you'll follow a few steps with sorbate and sulfite and then sweeten before bottling.

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

Add one crushed (and dissolved) campden tablet per gallon of wine at every other racking.

Ok thanks, I will think about fining but -do I really have to add campden again? I read that with 11-12 ABV wine will be ok without extra stabilizing. I want to carbonate few bottles and make it sparkling. Will I be able to do it with so many campdens added?

 

[Yooper]

Ok thanks, I will think about fining but -do I really have to add campden again? I read that with 11-12 ABV wine will be ok without extra stabilizing. I want to carbonate few bottles and make it sparkling. Will I be able to do it with so many campdens added?

Campden isn't for stabilizing (sorbate is), it's an antioxidant. Using 1 crushed campden tablet per gallon at every other racking is a very low dose, but helps protect the wine from oxidation. It's re-added at intervals because it dissipates.

If you want to carbonate it, you can surely do that. It depends on the actual ABV and the yeast strain. You may want to add a tiny tiny pinch of fresh EC-1118 to the bottle to bottle carb, just because once the wine is clear and not dropping lees, there is very little yeast still in suspension.

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

It will clear on it's own. If it doesn't use the proper ONE fining.

This summer I experimented with apple cider and let it sit for a month and it cleared up visually. But after I added kieselsol-chitosan kit i got about 1/4" of settlement "dirt" within 30 minutes so I don't believe that time would do all the job on its own. And I think that active fining will not hurt the wine, isn't it?

 

[Seamonkey84]

This summer I experimented with apple cider and let it sit for a month and it cleared up visually. But after I added kieselsol-chitosan kit i got about 1/4" of settlement "dirt" within 30 minutes so I don't believe that time would do all the job on its own. And I think that active fining will not hurt the wine, isn't it?

If it’s not fully degassed, then it won’t clear completely. Usually it takes several months and several racking, not just one, to have it degas naturally.

 

[Yooper]

This summer I experimented with apple cider and let it sit for a month and it cleared up visually. But after I added kieselsol-chitosan kit i got about 1/4" of settlement "dirt" within 30 minutes so I don't believe that time would do all the job on its own. And I think that active fining will not hurt the wine, isn't it?

Well, it's time that works with gravity. You want to let it sit at least 60 days without dropping lees ('dirt' as you call it) before you consider fining. It doesn't strip that much flavor usually, but it does strip flavor and each time you add a fining, you will strip more out. Ideally, you wouldn't use or need any.

A well made wine isn't done in 30 days, as it will continue to drop sediment. And in a case like this with an acidic fruit wine, you may find that after about 9 months you want to cold stabilize it to drop out much more acid. After 45 days or so at 40 degrees or less, the wine will be less acidic (dropping out 'wine diamonds') and smoother and then it will be totally clear without any finings.

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

you want to cold stabilize it to drop out much more acid

Does it suppose to drop out Calcium-tartate crystalls that I added for acid reduction?

 

[Yooper]

Does it suppose to drop out Calcium-tartate crystalls that I added for acid reduction?

Not after that long period. It will reduce tartaric acid for sure (those are the wine diamonds you see occasionally), but I've found it also substantially reduces malic acid also. It does take quite a long time for the malic reduction, but it's worth it in a very malic acid heavy wine.

Also, many winemakers do MLF at the end of primary in malic acid heavy wines. I've done it with non-grape wines as well as grape wines.

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

Not after that long period

Do you mean it will throw some other tartates and tartaric acid during 45 days (for example) but not calcium tartates in particular? CaT need much longer time to crystallize?

 

[Yooper]

I don't know- I never sent the wine diamonds in for analysis. But I will tell you that cold stabilization will drop excess acid long after (months after) CaCO3 is added, or if it's not used at all.

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

Ok, thanks for recommendations. I will publish some updates with pictures about my progress in a few months. My wine I think is on the right way now. It's bubbling pretty good.

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

So plan on letting it ferment for 5-7 days or so, until it reaches 1.010 or below

Why I cannot wait full 60 days for the first fermentation until wine is dry? Why I should wait only 5 to 7 days and reck it? My wine is still bubbling but very very slowly.

 

[Yooper]

You can do whatever you want. Good winemaking processes have you get the wine off of the gross lees, and move it to a carboy and airlock it when the SG reaches 1.010 or lower.

I have fruit in my primaries currently, and have them loosely covered so that I can stir it to get rid of the co2 (which is poisonous to yeast). Tomorrow my plan is to move them to carboys to ensure that there is very little headspace now that fermentation has slowed. This products the wine from oxidation (since there is still some fermentation) and gets it off of the fruit and the sediment (lees) that have fallen out.

The wine should be fermented out in 5-10 days, not 60 days! The fermentation period in a healthy fermentation is pretty quick.

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

I have fruit in my primaries currently

thanks, that makes a sense. You and other people start with smashed fruits and now you need to get read of them by moving pure "juice" to carboy. In my case I started with pure clear juice in a carboy. So may be I don't need this step. I just need to stir it well to clean it from co2 and leave it alone until I get thick layer of lees. Sorry if I'm annoying but after I made mistake with acidity I pay attention to every detail and try to understand meaning. By the way I got some oak cubes, does it matter when should I start to infuse them, anytime or when fermentation is completely done and wine is dry?

 

[Yooper]

Why I cannot wait full 60 days for the first fermentation until wine is dry? Why I should wait only 5 to 7 days and reck it? My wine is still bubbling but very very slowly.

thanks, that makes a sense. You and other people start with smashed fruits and now you need to get read of them by moving pure "juice" to carboy. In my case I started with pure clear juice in a carboy. So may be I don't need this step. I just need to stir it well to clean it from co2 and leave it alone until I get thick layer of lees. Sorry if I'm annoying but after I made mistake with acidity I pay attention to every detail and try to understand meaning. By the way I got some oak cubes, does it matter when should I start to infuse them, anytime or when fermentation is completely done and wine is dry?

It's not just the fruit in them, although I don't want it to break down. You want to make sure that the carboy has plenty of headspace while fermenting, but when fermentation slows you want to get it topped up and off of the lees. You definitely don't want "thick lees" for the wine to sit on for any length of time, due to the flavor impact of that.

Oak once fermentation is done, and the wine is not dropping any lees at all.

You can do it however you want, but for your first time I'd suggest trying to follow some winemaking practices for the best results.

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

It was 7 days since the beginning of the primary fermentation and yesterday I racked the "wine" into another carboy. I had about 2 inches of lees. The color is deep orange and smelts ugly. I added 5 campden tablets and 1/2 gal of water to the top of the bottle. The gravity was 0.990 measured with gravity hydrometer. Why so small I don't know. Anyway activity is still going and CO2 is producing. I will wait another 2 months in a darkness and temperature 75F and see what will be.

 

[Blacksmith1]

By small I believe you mean low. .990 means it has eaten all or almost all of the available sugars. The CO2 being released now is what was left in suspension when the yeast finished it's feast. As it ages it will release this gas. Keep the bottle almost full and next time you rack use potassium metabisulfite (K-meta powder, or campden tablets) then every second time you rack do it again. This will keep the O2 out.

 

[bernardsmith]

Blacksmith1 is absolutely right... and your question suggests that you may not really understand how to read an hydrometer. There are three scales on most hydrometers. One scale tells you the potential alcohol by volume - but that scale is good only BEFORE you add the yeast. Once you add the yeast that POTENTIAL slowly (or quickly) becomes ACTUAL. A second scale gives you a reading of how dense the liquid is (also known as the specific gravity) and that density is very strongly related to how much sugar is in the solution. The more sugar in solution , the more dense the liquid. As the yeast converts sugar into alcohol the density drops closer and closer to water (which is conventionally at 1.000). But alcohol is LESS dense than water. And that means as the sugar content of the liquid drops to zero and the alcohol level rises you would expect the density of the liquid to be LESS THAN water (since alcohol is less dense than water and a wine is a mixture of water and alcohol) . So areading of .900 makes perfectly good sense.
The third scale is usually brix and brix is a more direct measure of the sugar content of a liquid (as opposed to the density).

 

[Timofey Gorlov]

ext time you rack use potassium metabisulfite (K-meta powder, or campden tablets) then every second time you rack do it again

Should I mes

Blacksmith1 is absolutely right... and your question suggests that you may not really understand how to read an hydrometer. There are three scales on most hydrometers. One scale tells you the potential alcohol by volume - but that scale is good only BEFORE you add the yeast. Once you add the yeast that POTENTIAL slowly (or quickly) becomes ACTUAL. A second scale gives you a reading of how dense the liquid is (also known as the specific gravity) and that density is very strongly related to how much sugar is in the solution. The more sugar in solution , the more dense the liquid. As the yeast converts sugar into alcohol the density drops closer and closer to water (which is conventionally at 1.000). But alcohol is LESS dense than water. And that means as the sugar content of the liquid drops to zero and the alcohol level rises you would expect the density of the liquid to be LESS THAN water (since alcohol is less dense than water and a wine is a mixture of water and alcohol) . So areading of .900 makes perfectly good sense.
The third scale is usually brix and brix is a more direct measure of the sugar content of a liquid (as opposed to the density).

Did i say something wrong? I read density (not brix, not potential alcohol) that was equal to 0.990 so it looks like it's completely dry at this point after 7 days of fermentation.

 

[bernardsmith]

Nothing you said was "wrong" but you expressed surprise that the density was as low as it was. But there is nothing unexpected about gravity dropping to .990. That is what one would want to find. That is what one would expect to find.