Please help me... S8610U Damper Error Issue

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edmondsonm

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I have been working on a two tier, one pump HERMS system. I am upgrading from my old ASCO valve with a standing pilot on a propane system to a Honeywell S8610U with an intermittent pilot on NG. I have read every thread here I can find.

My problem is that when I call for heat, the S8610U sends spark for about 15 seconds but the pilot valve never opens. The LED gives me 5 blinks: Damper Error.

My valve is good. I can apply 24V to the PV and it will open and I can manually light it, then apply 24V to the MV and the main opens and all is fine.

I cannot get the S8610U to orchestrate these events. All I get is 15 seconds of the igniter firing a good strong spark but I cannot hear or feel the pilot valve opening.

I have it wired like this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/gas-temperature-control-dummies-116632/

I have tried 3 different S8610U units and they all give the 5 flashes on the LED. I have never plugged any of them into a damper as I (obviously) have no damper. I have never applied 24V to anything but the TH-W lead.

Any suggestions appreciated. :confused:

Begin Edit:
OK...jump to page 4 or so and see that these units worked in the end. What happened was I had out thought my limited knowledge of all this stuff in my circuit design. A forum member on page 4 suggested to simplify and re-test and bingo....EVERYTHING WORKS PERFECTLY. Just know this: If you stupidly add a diode on the TH-W (call for heat) leg you give the unit screwed up current, which I guess looks like 24V pulsed DC but I don't have an oscilloscope to verify and the S8610U reacts LIKE A DAMPER ERROR and flashes that code. Also know that even though I fired the units at least 200 times each in testing, once I got a clean 24VAC to the TH-W Leg both my S8610U units worked like the good units they are.

Also know that the members here rallied and got me through my own stupidity without judgement!
​
 
Did you remove the damper plug from the S8610 and power it up?, if so it now is expecting the contact closure from the damper switch. If these were used units that were used with a damper, the change is permanent as an internal fuse blows and the ignition expects the damper switch. The only option now is to buy a virgin unit or else build something that mimics the D896 damper that provides a contact closure after power up.
 
Virgin units to the best of my knowledge. I bought 2 from PexSupply, one as a retro fit kit with my valve and pilot and the other as a standalone. I tried a third unit from a local supplier.

I have never plugged anything into the 6 pin nolex connector as I have no damper to plug in.

One thing I do notice is a lot of photographs of these units here and elsewhere on the web have a jumper wire in the molex connecter from the top right pin to the top center pin. None of my 3 units came with such a jumper.
 
kladue said:
[...]If these were used units that were used with a damper, the change is permanent as an internal fuse blows and the ignition expects the damper switch.[...]
Click to expand...

Wow. First, it isn't obvious why one would design something that behaves like that in the first place. And second, blowing a fuse because a jumper is removed sounds like black magic. Do they embed an "executioner FET" in there or what?

Cheers! :drunk:
 
Damn, I checked and it seems Honeywell has shipped some of these units without the damper bypass plug pre-installed as they used to (plug with wire loop sticking up about an inch). Send the unit back and make the supplier open the box to verify the plug is present, or supply a damper bypass plug so the unit will fire up correctly when powered up, as this is a one way step without the bypass plug.
This sucks for the people that do not know that the plug is supposed to be present and trust that everything is okay out of the box.
 
Wow...this really takes the fun out a project like this. So, to be clear, the S8610U is supposed to have a white plastic plug fitted with a jumper wire spanning two of the pins?

Each of the two S8610U unit I have been shipped from PEXSupply has come with the white plastic plug lacking a wire and having BLACK SHARPIE hand scribbled on the plug.

Does this make any sense or mean anything?

:smack:
 
The plug shipped is supposed to have a wire jumper installed, not sharpie marks, unless there is a wire jumper floating around in the box. A question, was there a short piece of wire ( ~2 inches) with metal ends in a small envelope shipped with the unit, that would be the jumper wire that was used to be installed in the plug, and the sharpie marks would designate the holes to insert the wire ends into, normally # 2 & #3. The wire ends insert into the plug and lock in to place automatically.
 
Your module should look like in my picture.
If you don't have the plug put a wire into #2 & #3 as Kladue mentioned in his post.
The module should work if the fuse is not blown.
With the fuse blown you need one more jumper from #3 to #5.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Gas_Control_Module 001.jpg
 
Hmmm. I placed jumpers from 2 to 3 like the picture. I have 15 seconds of spark, but the pilot valve is not actuating. In other words, no difference.

I tried that on both of the S8610U units I got from Pexsupply.com

No luck.

I added a jumper from 3 to 5 in addition to the jumper from 2 to 3 as discussed.

No luck on either unit.

I could buy a 3rd unit. I tried to call Honeywell, but of course they are not open the Friday after Thanksgiving.

Any more ideas?
 
edmondsonm said:
Hmmm. I placed jumpers from 2 to 3 like the picture. I have 15 seconds of spark, but the pilot valve is not actuating. In other words, no difference.

I tried that on both of the S8610U units I got from Pexsupply.com

No luck.

I added a jumper from 3 to 5 in addition to the jumper from 2 to 3 as discussed.

No luck on either unit.

I could buy a 3rd unit. I tried to call Honeywell, but of course they are not open the Friday after Thanksgiving.

Any more ideas?
Click to expand...
If you connect the gas line and try to start the burner it may take more than 60 seconds to purge the air out of the system.
My system takes more than 60 seconds the first time I hook up the gas.
Do you have an ohm meter?

Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
Try giving it a call for heat, wait a second or two, and then remove the jumper between 3 and 5.

The control is expecting to see a normally closed switch in the damper that opens after it's motor moves the damper open. I can't be sure from the limited documentation I've found that this will be all that it takes, and it won't be easy for you to automate this work around. But it will prove that you can make the controller trigger the valves.

Edit: Also try holding the 3 to 5 jumper open until a few seconds after the call for heat, then close it. I can't tell from the docs whether it is looking for a normally closed or a normally open circuit.


If you aren't going to ask the supplier to replace these, maybe it would be easier to open the box and solder in a new 3 amp fuse. Then make sure the 2 to 3 jumper is in place before you apply power again. Modifying the insides will, of course, void your warranty. I wouldn't recommend modifying a control that is running unattended heating your house, but in this application, and so long as you don't mess with anything else in there, why not?
 
reynolds5520 said:
He's already fired the burners by manually powering the valves, so it isn't a purge issue. Plus he's getting an error code on the diagnostic LED.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
Its always good to reread the original post
Non of my units have a diagnostic LED and pin #3 & # 5 bypass the fuse only according to my schematic.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
Thinking on it some more - the combination of a jumper from 2 to 3 and a jumper from 3 to 5 should have mimicked replacing the internal fuse. So my suggestion to open it and replace the fuse probably isn't valid.


Kevin Ladue's earlier post about needing to mimic a damper suggests that it is looking for 3 to 5 to close rather than open.
 
OK, I think I found something.

When it's wired with a damper, you need to connect 24V to the 24V terminal while the thermostat (or your PID controller) also switches 24V to the TH-W terminal.

This in combination with a jumper from 3 to 5 on the damper connector. You may still need to have that jumper open at the first call for heat and then closed - but try it both ways.
 
Not to confuse the OP.

To make the S8610U work a non damper attached unit with a blown fuse:
1. Jumper pin 2 & 3
2. Jumper pin 3 & 5, which places the jumper accross the blown fuse.
3. Wire as normal without using 24V pin

I am assuming my units are internally the same as the OP units.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
reynolds5520 said:
From the wiring diagrams it sure looks like that should work, but he says he tried that and it didn't.
Click to expand...

The only way to know if all connections are done is to measure from TH-W to #2 connector.
If he uses a two rod sensor no jumper wire should be attached to the sense terminal.
Would be nice to see a picture of the unit.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
Thank you all for all the very helpful input and support.

I have got to get this thing working! It is driving me freakin' batty.

I'll post some pictures. Let me share a few additional thoughts:

I have seen 3 of the S8610U units, supposedly new in box and not one has come with a jumper between pin 2 and 3, nor have I seen a jumper in the box.

I have opened the plastic housing of one of my S8810U units and I did not see a fuse that I could identify. I will take a picture of the board for reference and input.

Of the 3 units I have connected, each has been initially powered up without the jumper from 2 to 3 on the damper plug. What baffles me, as I have the documentation and have read the documentation and nowhere does it say in the documentation that a jumper should should be fabricated (as none is provided) and used.

I don't doubt any of the advice here as you all have working units, with these jumpers, that work. I do wonder if Honeywell has multiple revisions of this unit. Case in point, the install literature that came with my latest unit states under connect Vent Damper (Optional) (on page 6 at bottom right)

"After initial power-up, the ignition control module senses the presence of a vent damper connection. If the vent damper is connected for 10 ignition cycles, the ignition control module permanently configures itself to operate ONLY with the vent damper connected.

Once an ignition control module completes 10 ignition cycles with a vent damper connected, the module will not function without a vent damper being connected."​

I find this somewhat bothersome as this language was not present in the installation instruction that came with my YS8610U retro fit kit (the first one I purchased with the valve and the pilot). In those instructions there is NO reference to a time frame or number of ignition cycles the unit will go through without "configuring itself permanently".

I am leaning toward buying unit #4. Placing the jumper between pins 2 and 3 (never connecting power to the 24Vac pin (which just powers pin 1 on the molex damper plug) and giving this one final shot.

Should this not work, I am all about soldering fuses etc. I might even try the White-Rogers. Maybe the White-Rogers is not so smart as to make "choices" about how to configure itself.

Better pics to follow and thanks again.

Installandboard_small.jpg
 
There have been multiple revisions to this unit over the years. It sounds like you may even have more than one revision in hand.

On the older ones I've worked with, there was a fuse on the board. That count to 10 description suggests that on that revision it is a firmware function rather than a hardware fuse.

Be very careful with any testing on an opened unit. The high voltage spark circuits can pack a punch!

Testing with a fourth unit, with the jumper in place, is one way to go. Kind of an expensive way though. Unless you're really in a hurry, I'm sure we can help you to make one work by mimicking the damper.

I haven't used the White Rodgers unit, can't provide any first hand knowledge. It looks like it should work but I haven't looked that closely.
 
edmondsonm said:
Thank you all for all the very helpful input and support.

I have got to get this thing working! It is driving me freakin' batty.

I'll post some pictures. Let me share a few additional thoughts:

I have seen 3 of the S8610U units, supposedly new in box and not one has come with a jumper between pin 2 and 3, nor have I seen a jumper in the box.

I have opened the plastic housing of one of my S8810U units and I did not see a fuse that I could identify. I will take a picture of the board for reference and input.

Of the 3 units I have connected, each has been initially powered up without the jumper from 2 to 3 on the damper plug. What baffles me, as I have the documentation and have read the documentation and nowhere does it say in the documentation that a jumper should should be fabricated (as none is provided) and used.

I don't doubt any of the advice here as you all have working units, with these jumpers, that work. I do wonder if Honeywell has multiple revisions of this unit. Case in point, the install literature that came with my latest unit states under connect Vent Damper (Optional) (on page 6 at bottom right)

"After initial power-up, the ignition control module senses the presence of a vent damper connection. If the vent damper is connected for 10 ignition cycles, the ignition control module permanently configures itself to operate ONLY with the vent damper connected.

Once an ignition control module completes 10 ignition cycles with a vent damper connected, the module will not function without a vent damper being connected."​

I find this somewhat bothersome as this language was not present in the installation instruction that came with my YS8610U retro fit kit (the first one I purchased with the valve and the pilot). In those instructions there is NO reference to a time frame or number of ignition cycles the unit will go through without "configuring itself permanently".

I am leaning toward buying unit #4. Placing the jumper between pins 2 and 3 (never connecting power to the 24Vac pin (which just powers pin 1 on the molex damper plug) and giving this one final shot.

Should this not work, I am all about soldering fuses etc. I might even try the White-Rogers. Maybe the White-Rogers is not so smart as to make "choices" about how to configure itself.

Better pics to follow and thanks again.
Click to expand...

You have a model S8610U3009
https://customer.honeywell.com/resources/Techlit/TechLitDocuments/63-0000s/63-9411.pdf
I have to go back to the drawing board.
 
From the manual for that model:

On power up. (Edit - make that "on call for heat")
- IF DAMPER IS OPEN, CONTROL WAITS 60 SECONDS FOR DAMPER TO CLOSE. ONCE CLOSED, CONTROL WAITS
60 SECONDS FOR DAMPER TO REOPEN.
- IF DAMPER IS CLOSED, CONTROL WAITS 60 SECONDS FOR DAMPER TO OPEN.
Click to expand...

That sounds to me like it expects to see the power come on first, and then the jumper to say that the damper has opened.
 
Big Boy Images: Here is the one from my last post both as a test and so that details of the board can be seen.

IMG_20131202_162630_397.jpg



Blurry overview of the front panel:

IMG_20131202_214522_603.jpg


Guts of the panel:

IMG_20131202_214512_501.jpg


Valve:

IMG_20131202_214533_158.jpg


Just for kicks, pilot burner:

IMG_20131202_214539_034.jpg
 
First, I am a little disappointed to post this build in the middle of it when it is not working. Oh well. One always hopes to share success in all its shiny glory.

Upon inspecting the image of the "guts" of the box you'll notice twin orange wires coming into the TH-W pin. These come from the 24VAC positive leg of the transformer. It feeds the bottom 3-way switch. One leg just makes the call for heat, the other leg brings power into the Love Temp switch, when then would make the call for heat based on the probe reading in the HLT.

Each of the orange wires has a fat spot under some shrink tubing. Each of those contains a diode so one leg does not back feed the other leg. I can post the specs on the diode if that eventually comes under scrutiny. Suffice it to say that I did the same in the other circuit that runs my pump and that works perfectly.

Thanks for the look and for the help.
 
From studying the manuals for various revisions of the s8610u and a compatible motorized damper, I think I know what it is looking for.


Connect 24V to the 24V terminal. Your switched 24V still goes to the TH-W terminal.

Provide a jumper from Pin 1 of the damper connector to Pin 2 of the damper connector. Pin 1 should be connected internally to the 24V terminal, you may even be able to follow it on the board to verify. Pin 2 is where 24V returns from a damper when the damper is open.

With this newer version of the board you may need to give it a call for heat first on TH-W and then connect Pin 1 to Pin 2.

ClaudiusB, do you concur?
 
Weeeellll I love figuring out html bs conflicts....

I think the images are showing up for all now.

Here is an image of the instructions that came with my YS8610U ignition control and valve kit, here after known as S8610U unit #1.

IMG_20131202_224810_659.jpg


Just to document (and potentially confuse the issue) the first image has the the ignition control board out of the YS8610U(3009) valve + ignition control + pilot sitting on top the instructions that came with the S8610U(3009) ignition control (hereafter know as unit #3). The image in this post is the instructions that came with the YS8610U(3009) (UNIT #1). Sorry the board and the instruction images were not paired properly.

Don't ask about unit #2. It was a fleeting hook up from my neighbor, an HVAC contractor who has been most helpful. It was off his truck and used to diagnose that the transformer was putting out good and enough 25VAC; that my wiring was correct etc.

Irregardless, see the difference in wording in the instructions regarding the damper control? In any case, THERE IS NO MENTION FROM HONEYWELL about any freaking jumpers or 10 attempts.

Again, this is IN NO WAY any frustration regarding the kind Brewers helping out on this thread. My frustration is totally about a huge company covering their liabilities with a "universal" product to the point where, though advertised as "universal" is damn near useless unless you have it connected to a damper.

That said, I retain the right to absolve Honeywell the moment I get my shiiiiiit working right and therefore understand how this unit is "universal". Then I'll hope others can follow our thread here to NOT HAVE TO LIVE through this misery.

I am buying commercial beer at a much higher rate than I anticipated....
 
I suspect that Honeywell decided to save a few cents on every unit shipped by eliminating the jumper plug. The logic was probably that these are being sold for use as replacement parts and that the needed jumper plug can be pulled off the unit being replaced. That doesn't much help an installer that is using it to universally replace some other type of module.

Of the dozens of these I've installed over the years (including this variant) every single one had the jumper plug in place. It IS very disappointing to learn that they've cheaped out on a part that when missing can permanently disable the unit from functioning as required.

Here is a block diagram of what's going on inside an S8610U taken from an older manual. You can see it shows 24V connecting to Pin 1 to provide power to the damper. You can also see it shows Pin 2 providing power to the internal circuits on a call for heat.
attachment.php



Here is the internal schematic of an M896 Damper. It shows 24V from Pin 1 returning to Pin 2 when the damper is open.

attachment.php


S8610U-older.jpg


M896 Damper.jpg
 
No offense guys, but I think this has been way over thought. The yellow jumper is no longer added due to it being an internal jumper on newer models. You do not need to add any jumper wires to make the unit work properly. My first suggestion is to remove the PID from the circuit and apply 24V, without diodes, to 24V GND and TH-W. This should initiate the proper pilot and main valve sequence.

My only concern is that adding the jumper wires into the molex plug you have told the unit to look for a damper. If this is the case the unit will not function properly now.
 
No progress. I have been traveling for work. I will get home later this afternoon and will be accomplishing X-mass decorating. Tomorrow I am going to tackle this again! Thanks for the help.

I did have a conversation with a brewing professional I know and he stated that his system eats these units like candy. He said he goes through 2-3 per year. Yikes, I can't afford that. I hope that once I get this functioning that my rate of use will be much lower than his was and I hope to get multiple years use out of one unit.
 
I'm not sure why he would go through so many units. In all my time working at Honeywell I have never heard that. I would suspect either application or condition is playing a factor. I am using three of them in my set up and have not had a single issue. Let me know if I can help in any way, as I have quite a bit of experience with Honeywell products.

Oh, by the way, the sharpie on the molex is an inspection mark.
 
edmondsonm said:
Each of the orange wires has a fat spot under some shrink tubing. Each of those contains a diode so one leg does not back feed the other leg. I can post the specs on the diode if that eventually comes under scrutiny. Suffice it to say that I did the same in the other circuit that runs my pump and that works perfectly.
Click to expand...



I missed that when you posted it before, the comment from de3isit had me go back looking.

Diodes work for isolation between components in DC circuits. A single diode in an AC circuit acts as a half wave rectifier. You're basically sending the module a rippling 24 V DC. The module isn't designed for DC so you should eliminate the diodes.

There shouldn't be any need to prevent back feeding in this circuit.
 
de3isit said:
I'm not sure why he would go through so many units. In all my time working at Honeywell I have never heard that. I would suspect either application or condition is playing a factor.
Click to expand...


It sounds to me like his system is cycling them too often. These are designed for applications like furnaces that fire up and keep running awhile then don't fire again right away. A controller firing often for short runs to hold a steady temp will greatly increase the cycle count.

A homebrewer that doesn't run the system very often may never have an issue even with frequent/short cycles.

If you're concerned, you could reconfigure it to cycle the spark and pilot valve on at the beginning of the session. Put the temp control between the module and the main valve. That would allow the main valve to cycle often while reducing the spark/pilot cycle count to once per session. This is probably what your pro friend should do on his systems.
 
I see a few things here....
I can definitely re-test the unit(s) with out the PID (really the Love switch) and w/o the Diode. Now I see what the diode may be doing on that circuit. Woops.

I might need to redesign the circuit. Question is how to keep one leg from back-feeding the other? Maybe another SSR and just feed it nice clean 24 volt AC from the transformer on the load side of the SSR, but keep the diodes and change the control side of the circuit to the DC side of the SSR. I got plenty of options.

Damn, I wish I was a bit more knowledgeable.

Thanks all.
-Mike
 
I don't think you need to be worried about back feeding. Both sides are providing the same 24 VAC, so there's nothing that will be damaged. Also, on both sides the back feed will just end at the open side of the switch or relay.

Just replace the diode wires with straight wires and move on to the other troubleshooting.
 
reynolds5520 said:
I missed that when you posted it before, the comment from de3isit had me go back looking.

Diodes work for isolation between components in DC circuits. A single diode in an AC circuit acts as a half wave rectifier. You're basically sending the module a rippling 24 V DC. The module isn't designed for DC so you should eliminate the diodes.
Click to expand...

You were spot on!!! Success. I have to rewire some stuff permanently but I got it all working as I wanted it to!! :ban:

Also, I edited my original post to let folks searching this topic know that the problem was solved thanks to you guys and the answer is on page 4.

I thank you all.

Now I just have to carve out the time to re-wire and BREW!!!!!

I like how these units works.
 

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