Planning my first turbid mash

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

Hey all, long time sour brewer here but planning my first turbid mash. Just wondering when you do the turbid pulls, do you vorlauf briefly first so as to not get any grain bits in the 2nd kettle, or it's fine if some get in?

Thanks!

 

[Dade0]

Strain out any bits as you pull the turbid wort. You want cloudy wort. Not malty bits.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I think the idea is to produce cloudy wort without the grain. However, I don't think getting grain in the boil is a show stopper. Worst case scenario and it does pick up any tannins as a result (which it won't), that's just food for the sour bugs during long term storage.

Are you doing the full-on "traditional" turbid mash (and subsequent long boil) or a revised/streamlined version? I just did a modified one, and it TOTALLY changed my mind about the process. I won't hesitate to do it again in the future to produce a lambic-style wort. I didn't end up with an excessive volume to boil down for 5 hours, and I didn't have to mash much longer than I usually do.

 

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

Thanks for the info! Makes sense.

I plan on doing a traditional turbid mash, but after that not very traditional (don't plan to do a long boil, just maybe an hour, with aged hop pellets, and pitching bugs or at least dregs, not spontaneous).

When you say it totally changed your mind, do you mean with regards to the increased complexity/funk of the final beer, or just that you thought the turbid mash would be a pain but it actually wasn't too bad?

 

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

Oh also, is water treatment usually omitted for turbid mashes? ie. Cl/SO4 additions, pH adjustment, etc?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Thanks for the info! Makes sense.

I plan on doing a traditional turbid mash, but after that not very traditional (don't plan to do a long boil, just maybe an hour, with aged hop pellets, and pitching bugs or at least dregs, not spontaneous).

When you say it totally changed your mind, do you mean with regards to the increased complexity/funk of the final beer, or just that you thought the turbid mash would be a pain but it actually wasn't too bad?

I think the main point of a long boil in the traditional method (4-5hrs) is because the traditional turbid mash produces a LOT of wort that needs to be boiled down to the desired volume. If you do a traditional turbid mash, boiling for just an hour doesn't match up.

By "changed my mind" i mean that I'm not scared of it anymore. I thought it would be a HUGE pain, but it really only added a couple extra steps and 30min. I followed a schedule that's a mashup of Mike Tonsmeire's and Cantillon's, found here, with the only extra steps being the step mashing and the boiling of the raw wheat. The brew day itself was hectic, as I boiled over a bit (still after 20 years!) and neglected the rice hulls, resulting in a stuck runoff. However, the resulting wort was SUPER cloudy and I hit my OG target, so I'm positive the modified turbid mash worked, and experience will help me in the future.

 

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

Right, sorry I should've mentioned, not completely traditional as I plan to see how much I have after the mash/returning the turbid pulls, etc. and then just sparge enough to get my normal or slightly above normal pre-boil volume, so I don't have to boil forever. Unless the volume from the mash runoff and turbid pulls will already be more than a normal pre-boil volume?

I've only been brewing for 3.5 years but also still have the occasional boilover, probably always will

That's great that you nailed your target FG. As this will be quite experimental for me, if I'm anywhere in the neighbourhood I'll be happy. I do hope that I too don't mind the process and will do it more going forward, so this first try will basically just be a test run (that will likely still turn out tasty with enough time!).

Did you see my question about water treatment?

 

[satph]

I printed the flow chart from Brewunited found here. I spent a fair amount of time planning for it as I was concerned it would be a disaster. The brew day took longer than usual, but by knowing the steps ahead of time, following the flow chart and making notes while it was going, ensured an easy process. To answer the original question, I only vorlaufed at the end going into the boil kettle.

I'm glad I did it and would recommend it to anyone who brews lambic inspired beers for historical context. That said, I'm not sure I'd do it again. I fermented with ECY31 Senne Valley and this batch is destined to get blended as it doesn't excite me enough to bottle as is 2 years later.

I added some gypsum to get the expected mash pH in range based on my water and the grist while not taking my water further from the Brussels profile in Bru'n Water.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Did you see my question about water treatment?

Everything I read suggested water isn't that big of a deal. So i just made sure my mash pH was solid (after the boiling, during the beta rest) and just balanced the SO4 and Cl around 60ppm.

 

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

Thanks guys! satph thanks for that BrewUnited article, I plan to pretty much follow that and Tonsmeire's process (Lambic 3 - Turbid Mash | The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog) except without the big sparge and extended boil. I'm assuming if I don't sparge with a large volume (diluting the wort) and don't boil long (concentrate the wort again) I should end up with a similar gravity to if I did both.

Just realized my 5 gal mash tun definitely won't hold all the water once I get to the later steps, so I'll have to borrow a friend's 10 gal. Good thing I'm planning this well in advance.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I plan to pretty much follow that and Tonsmeire's process

I think it worked pretty well. I used two pots and a cooler MLT. Direct fired the wheat/10% malt in the first kettle to rest and boil. I added that to the rest of the mash in the cooler MLT and actually overshot that protein rest as a result. Boiling water infusions allowed me to hit the rest temps and it didn't take much, so my sparge water volumes were reasonable and I didn't have to do any excessive boiling.

Two tips:
- don't forget the rice hulls if you're doing a significant portion of your grist as wheat. Once boiled, that porridge really gums up the mash.
- use some type of rest calculator to help hit your temps and be able to think on your feet to course-correct.
- (sub-tip of the above one) don't start drinking until you hit the boil.

 

[Beer666]

Does a turbid mash negate the need to pre boil the raw wheat?

 

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

turbid mash negate the need to pre boil the r

I believe if you're following the traditional turbid mash schedule then yes, the first or 2nd step gelatinizes the raw wheat I think.