Isn't that all the more reason people shouldn't be super-upset about this machine's existence? If clean beer that matches the intended style is all about fermentation, then this machine is just a prelude to the real show.
But, if clean, nominal examples of the style DON'T speak to the ability of the machine to brew good beer, what does? It really should be about the beer. Obviously, the blind tasting of sanctioned judging has the best case to really answer the question, but, at this point, even the samples those of us have had really can speak to the quality.
1. Lack of flaws that derive from pre-fermentation process. I didn't get any, but am perfectly willing to hear from those with better palettes than mine that there are flaws I missed. I got no DMS, despite at least one of the samples I tried being mostly Pilsner malt. No diacetyl beyond what the styles allow for. No acetaldehyde, or any of the other flaws that would indicate bad mashing or boiling.
2. No beers wildly out of style for mouthfeel. If the mash schedules in the machine were screwed up in some way, we should get super-dry doppelbocks or chewy saisons. Clean, nominal examples of style indicate that the intended mash temps were hit, the enzymes kicked in as expected and conversion of the expected amounts of starches to sugars and dextrins happened.
3. Efficient extraction. Since none of the beers I tasted were way low in alcohol, we can see that the machine extracts reasonable amounts of sugars from grain. Given the example of overshooting gravity, it actually points to the machine being more efficient at extraction than at least one homebrewer who made the switch.
4. Appropriate bitterness. Nominal examples of style require beers that are not wildly under-hopped or overhopped. Given "normal" brewing makes it fairly difficult to overhop beer with standard processes, the risk of a machine (particularly one that sets the boil portion of the program below 212F/100C) underhopping is what we'd need to look for. So, beers that taste appropriately bitter (and the examples I tasted did) indicate that hop alpha acid extraction is working correctly.
Post-boil, while dismissed as not relevant in the quoted comment, these beers were fermented in a keg, so the fact they're clean, not oxidized, etc. indicates that the differing fermentation vessel doesn't cause major fermentation problems.
The only quality question I didn't have answered in my samples is how well late/aromatic hop additions work, since none of the samples I had were of the hoppy styles. But, I know that the sample recipes include a Pliny clone, so there have clearly been experiments done in that direction.
There are things we have to wait for answers (like the cleaning issues and any potential build-up of deposits, etc.) to be sure about, but "clean, nominal examples of the style" indicate that the machine makes beer as well as more "normal" homebrew gear. And, given how many samples at club night *failed* that test, clearly this machine is within the margin that actual brewing and fermentation skills vary between brewers.
Heck, it took me a few tries to get down how much water to use in a rice cooker I bought last year. A super simple machine and super simple process, yet it still wasn't perfect the first two or three times I used it.. but it was edible.
However, if it had to live up to the standards some seem to expect of it, I'd actually expect to see a pricetag more like $4999 instead.
I thought Diacetyl and acetaldehyde were fermentation byproducts?Isn't that all the more reason people shouldn't be super-upset about this machine's existence? If clean beer that matches the intended style is all about fermentation, then this machine is just a prelude to the real show.
But, if clean, nominal examples of the style DON'T speak to the ability of the machine to brew good beer, what does? It really should be about the beer. Obviously, the blind tasting of sanctioned judging has the best case to really answer the question, but, at this point, even the samples those of us have had really can speak to the quality.
1. Lack of flaws that derive from pre-fermentation process. I didn't get any, but am perfectly willing to hear from those with better palettes than mine that there are flaws I missed. I got no DMS, despite at least one of the samples I tried being mostly Pilsner malt. No diacetyl beyond what the styles allow for. No acetaldehyde, or any of the other flaws that would indicate bad mashing or boiling.
You can make up for poor efficiency by throwing more grain at it, and I think from memory Picobrew were assuming a relatively low efficiency. From the example given it would approximately equal the expected OG if the assumed efficiency was 60% and the actual was 75%. I see no reason why it should not be any less than "normal", I see it as similar to the Brutus 2.0 concept and they get pretty reasonable efficiency.2. No beers wildly out of style for mouthfeel. If the mash schedules in the machine were screwed up in some way, we should get super-dry doppelbocks or chewy saisons. Clean, nominal examples of style indicate that the intended mash temps were hit, the enzymes kicked in as expected and conversion of the expected amounts of starches to sugars and dextrins happened.
3. Efficient extraction. Since none of the beers I tasted were way low in alcohol, we can see that the machine extracts reasonable amounts of sugars from grain. Given the example of overshooting gravity, it actually points to the machine being more efficient at extraction than at least one homebrewer who made the switch.
From my research alpha acids are isomerised at above 175°F, so there should be little bitterness difference between a beer that is boiled and one that is held just below boiling. On the DMS front (and this is starting confirm my change of opinion on the subject) - S-Methyl methionine (SMM) decomposes to DMS with heat and has a 1/2 life of 35 minutes @ 212°F, again I would not expect a great reduction in this decomposition at just below 212°F. DMS is a volatile, not soluble in water and has a boiling point of 99°F so any DMS produce should be driven off. Another source states DMS is produced at temperatures above 160°F (which is one of the "reasons" quick chilling is advised - but is most of the SMM is gone there will be nothing to convert to DMS). From these points I am happy to accept Picobrew's claims that DMS is not a significant issue (compared to "normal" practices)4. Appropriate bitterness. Nominal examples of style require beers that are not wildly under-hopped or overhopped. Given "normal" brewing makes it fairly difficult to overhop beer with standard processes, the risk of a machine (particularly one that sets the boil portion of the program below 212F/100C) underhopping is what we'd need to look for. So, beers that taste appropriately bitter (and the examples I tasted did) indicate that hop alpha acid extraction is working correctly.
Post-boil, while dismissed as not relevant in the quoted comment, these beers were fermented in a keg, so the fact they're clean, not oxidized, etc. indicates that the differing fermentation vessel doesn't cause major fermentation problems.
The only quality question I didn't have answered in my samples is how well late/aromatic hop additions work, since none of the samples I had were of the hoppy styles. But, I know that the sample recipes include a Pliny clone, so there have clearly been experiments done in that direction.
There are things we have to wait for answers (like the cleaning issues and any potential build-up of deposits, etc.) to be sure about, but "clean, nominal examples of the style" indicate that the machine makes beer as well as more "normal" homebrew gear. And, given how many samples at club night *failed* that test, clearly this machine is within the margin that actual brewing and fermentation skills vary between brewers.
I thought Diacetyl and acetaldehyde were fermentation byproducts?
Fill water above rice to the height of the first wrinkle on your pinky finger. Doesn't work if you do a less than a cup of dried rice. Wash rice by rinsing it and squeezing it in your palm. More times the better.
Anyhow......
I am pretty convinced the pico makes GOOD beer. A lot of people are looking for good beer.
Others are looking for EXCELLENT beer. But that comes at a heavy cost. Learning cost and time cost.
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You're right, of course. Are there any other off flavors that ARE mash/boil derived?
I received my shipping notice today, I believe I was unit number 100, as I got the last backer slot for the 2nd pilot production run.The last update would have the 100th unit going out the door today. Anybody out there have their unit and willing to comment? I'm not expecting mine for another 3 or 4 weeks if they can keep production at the 25/week rate.
Congrats on receiving our unit. I'm waiting for mine as well. You say you think you were number 100. Do you recall what your invoice number is? I think I can determine what my number is in line by my invoice number if you could help me out by telling me yours. I'd appreciate the help. Boy am I excited to get my hands on this.
Congrats on receiving our unit. I'm waiting for mine as well. You say you think you were number 100. Do you recall what your invoice number is? I think I can determine what my number is in line by my invoice number if you could help me out by telling me yours. I'd appreciate the help. Boy am I excited to get my hands on this.
I received my shipping notice today, I believe I was unit number 100, as I got the last backer slot for the 2nd pilot production run.
How can you figure that out?
I am still waiting on my unit. Best guess is that I am around 180.
How much is shipping?Got an email today asking for shipping payment because they are shipping the "next tier" that includes me. I guessing that the next tier is the 1st production run and would be units 101 to 200. I also received an email yesterday with my username and password to the Picobrew server for recipe setup. Spent at least an hour looking at existing recipes and playing with making my own. It actually looks pretty slick and I'm working on a shopping list for ingredients.
Let's brew and all you people in the pre-production tier need to start chiming in on how it is working for you.
Cheers
Congrats on receiving our unit. I'm waiting for mine as well. You say you think you were number 100. Do you recall what your invoice number is? I think I can determine what my number is in line by my invoice number if you could help me out by telling me yours. I'd appreciate the help. Boy am I excited to get my hands on this.
How much is shipping?
Where are you located?
Gosh, I can't wait to get mine. It's been almost a year since the Kickstarter.
Should've looked at your screen nameI'm in the Twin Cities (MN) and shipping comes to $73.
Watching the videos, it shows the workflow as ferment in keg, then transfer to another for carbonation and serving. This may be better asked in another thread, but what is the average beer loss with that? I was thinking about a work flow for those beers that need a true secondary. Wish I had access to the picobrew forum. Trying to figure out if I could do quads with this thing.
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