PicoBrew Zymatic

[Mike Howard]

Anyway, hoping that HEX is going to be more efficient and able to be kept clean.

I was looking at something like this one to replace the one in my Zymatic (only cheaper):

https://www.mcmaster.com/#35185k42/=1egf4lv

 

[Lax coach]

First unit is apparently going out tomorrow, but it's hand-built and being hand-delivered, so certainly not full-production mode.

 

[Goblism]

Yeah seems more like a prototype that is going out for testing.

Curious to see what the testing actually shows once things get moving. Wanting to get into a less hands on brew system and the very few reviews I have seen of Brewie+ have been surprisingly positive (granted they aren't shipping their pre-ordered units only new orders which seems shady). Hoping that the Z produces as I have a Z2 on pre-order but not afraid to cancel if they don't really produce the desired results.

 

[Anyhowe]

So it seems there is a spy in here....ha ha ha....the latest update looks like they just reviewed this forum thread....bah ha ha ha...Picobrew.

My update had the subject line “pico update, don’t get your panties in a bunch”. lol.

 

[Mike Howard]

bah ha ha....It just seemed awfully coincidental that we were just talking about how there was no Friday update, no deliveries, they won't get any Z's out soon, they don't have any working Z's and they are still designing and testing...then they come out with an update to try to dispel all those comments. ha ha. Well, one Z out the door does not really mean the new Z's are "good to go" and shipping has started.

Someone up near Woodinville, WA needs to take a little side trip and check out The Herbfarm restaurant and talk to Ron about his new Z and get the low-down. I'm sure he is a contributor and won't dare say anything negative, but still probably worth a visit.

 

[Brewfreedom]

So it seems there is a spy in here....ha ha ha....the latest update looks like they just reviewed this forum thread....bah ha ha ha...Picobrew.

Not sure why they bother. Its not like they have ever acted on user complaints or suggestions that show up in these forums? When was the last round of recipe editor fixes and firmware updates again in response to user feedback? Doug chimed in on the non picobrew zymatic forum to user's grumbling about shipping. The entire "July" ship date was just a ploy to convince folks that the product was coming very soon and that they had to get in now on the pre-order pricing. The pre-order pricing will probably have to be the actual price. I just can't wrap my head around a sane individual dropping $8500 to do 10 gallons in the most convoluted 10 gallon setup ever dreamed up with sketchy support.

 

[Mike Howard]

Trying to keep their sheep in the fold I would imagine....I periodically browse the Zymatic forum and see a couple guys over there kissing butt daily. Those kind of folks do nothing for the at-large community and just stroke the Picobrew Support ego....not a fan.

Hell, I only spent $8000 on my fully customized 1 BBL brewhouse for the brewery...why the hell would I spend that on a toy.

 

[Mike Howard]

This looks interesting. Could you please post the printout of the advanced editor with your additional entries?

Latest run with my last batch started without a hitch...no more FE#1. My starting water temp was about 75 F. This recipe mod adds about 12 minutes to my overall brew day, but I was spending at least that going back and forth between Circulate and Brew.

 

[Trevor Mack]

Another Friday about 6pm on West coast with a promised update not yet in the inboxes of those that backed the Z series. What might be their excuse on telling us about their first customer (trial / prototype user) delivery in the field? Maybe a late night at the brewery as Friday isn't over yet...

 

[rmklaw]

Latest run with my last batch started without a hitch...no more FE#1. My starting water temp was about 75 F. This recipe mod adds about 12 minutes to my overall brew day, but I was spending at least that going back and forth between Circulate and Brew.

View attachment 587049

View attachment 587050

I like the idea. I will try the step heating.

 

[Mike Howard]

Even so, from this pre-heat recipe you can see the Zym calling for 45 F in temp increase which is just on the hairy edge of throwing the FE #1.

However, with all of my testing, this seems to be the best temp ramp vs time to get by without throwing the error. Any greater temp values throws the error and any less time at temp seems to randomly throw the error. Mileage may vary so feel free to make your own temp/time adjustments to fit your system.

I can live with the extra 12 minutes or so if it avoids the error.

 

[Anyhowe]

Another Friday about 6pm on West coast with a promised update not yet in the inboxes of those that backed the Z series. What might be their excuse on telling us about their first customer (trial / prototype user) delivery in the field? Maybe a late night at the brewery as Friday isn't over yet...

Me thinks you need a chill cycle.

 

[Mike Howard]

lol...

 

[Mike Howard]

Speaking of the latest update, I'm worried we are being used as guinea pigs for a prototype:

"As we ship out the first units in the coming weeks we’ll be listening carefully to customer feedback so we can catch and incorporate fixes and updates that will make the product the best that it can be.

Ramping production of a quality product takes time as it depends critically on catching and addressing issues early in the ramp. "

 

[Anyhowe]

@Mike Howard I think it is good business to have a few outside people (who have likely agreed) to run the first production units and report back before large scale production and shipping begins. Ask the brewie folks if they would have preferred this approach.

 

[Lax coach]

@Mike Howard I think it is good business to have a few outside people (who have likely agreed) to run the first production units and report back before large scale production and shipping begins. Ask the brewie folks if they would have preferred this approach.

Agreed. I'm in a totally different business, but often when we launch new features, we solicit a small number of existing customers to pilot them and provide feedback. This helps keep us from releasing a giant turd on the entire userbase. Most of the time the feedback is "this is good, but here's how to make it better", though occasionally we miss and get a "what were you thinking?". Those responses are invaluable.

 

[LeeH]

My personal experience with Picobrew customer service, both for my Pico Pro and the Zymatic, is completely the opposite. In fact the fast response by Doug, Kevin, Joshua, Aldan, and Ryan (these are the customer service people I have dealt with) has been nothing short of outstanding. I have email them with questions pre-purchase, concerns, shipping questions, tips about using the equipment and the problems with the step filter, and have without exception received answers within a couple of hours. The best example is the step filter leak. Reported it to Joshua on Sunday early afternoon and got a response from him two hours later, and a follow up with shipping information on Monday morning (see emails below)

__________________________________________________________________________
SUNDAY RESPONSE:
Your request (54589) has been updated. To add additional comments, reply to this email.

Joshua (PicoBrew Inc.)

Aug 26, 16:40 PDT

Hi Richard,

Sorry that step filter is leaking, we can send you out a new one.

For that you have already, you can use NSF Rated Clear silicone, bathroom & kitchen. It will only work temporarily for small cracks, it is not a long term solution.
You can use that and keep it for cleaning sessions.
Cheers!
Joshua
_________________________________________________________________________
MONDAY RESPONSE:
The shipping status of your order has been updated. Please use the link below to track your order status.

Check Order Status

Enjoy Brewing,

The PicoBrew Team
_________________________________________________________________________

I hope they continue providing their outstanding support. That is why I switched from Brewie to Pico. My five-cents.
View attachment 585708 View attachment 585709 View attachment 585710

We all now know where you live.....I would edit the link.

 

[Trevor Mack]

Agreed. I'm in a totally different business, but often when we launch new features, we solicit a small number of existing customers to pilot them and provide feedback. This helps keep us from releasing a giant turd on the entire userbase. Most of the time the feedback is "this is good, but here's how to make it better", though occasionally we miss and get a "what were you thinking?". Those responses are invaluable.

I likewise am in a similar business that runs user experimentation. Specifically just this week we have released 4 different beta features into our produce lines. This means that users that typically request early access to "bleeding edge" features may possibly get a broken or imperfect experience with our products. This is to provide a overall better feature to the entire user base. Obviously in white box testing you can't fully test for what your users would do with a product. Though I agree with Mike that there hasn't been any evidence to what typical wear and tear even in a controlled environment looks like on these machines. *crosses fingers* that will be apparent in the coming weeks / months as we get updates from PicoBrew, but I'm not betting on it.

 

[Mike Howard]

Totally different for hardware releases than it is for software releases. You expect for hardware releases that sufficient testing has already taken place to insure the reliability of each component. I don't support putting prototype hardware out in the field and announcing it as a first production release. If they want to call it a prototype or an alpha, it would sit a lot better and actually be an honest update.

When you go purchase a microwave or any other household appliance, you don't expect to get an untested prototype. You are not supposed to have to give feedback on a poor user experience and then have them "upgrade" you down the road. Sorry, not buying the whole

I think it is good business to have a few outside people (who have likely agreed) to run the first production units and report back before large scale production and shipping begins.

Picobrew could do a lot better at communicating the status to folks who have bouight in on the new Zs. You can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig. Just say so.

 

[Anyhowe]

Totally different for hardware releases than it is for software releases. You expect for hardware releases that sufficient testing has already taken place to insure the reliability of each component. I don't support putting prototype hardware out in the field and announcing it as a first production release. If they want to call it a prototype or an alpha, it would sit a lot better and actually be an honest update.

When you go purchase a microwave or any other household appliance, you don't expect to get an untested prototype. You are not supposed to have to give feedback on a poor user experience and then have them "upgrade" you down the road. Sorry, not buying the whole



Picobrew could do a lot better at communicating the status to folks who have bouight in on the new Zs. You can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig. Just say so.

Starting to sound like an argument looking for a discussion.

 

[gamerc]

Wouldn't most of the hardware already have been tested decently well in the field via the Zymatic? I'm on pre-order for the Z2, but closely watching this thread. I've considered a couple of options instead of the Z2, but I don't see anything that is close to the automation and functionality that is hinted at by the Z2. With 2 kids, I find my brew time to be challenging, so the set it and forget it (what's up Ron Popiel) as the most important factor in a purchase. I don't want to babysit anything if I don't have to.

I'm wondering if there is a better way to brew (1 larger container instead of 2 corny kegs) that will be developed. Personally, I'd prefer to brew, chill, and ferment via a single vessel - like a SS Brewtech Brewbucket or Conical? Just some thoughts...

 

[Trevor Mack]

Anyways backing the Z* isn't like buying the new iPhone from Apple. PicoBrew is a small start up company using cloud funding as a way to develop and release payment products. The hardware world yes is massively different than software (or at least cloud based software), but everything about each of PicoBrew's products are incremental improvements over a prior design where improvements are mostly taken by user feedback. What I'd guess Mike would want said by someone at PicoBrew is that the final model for Z1 isn't finalized (aka there isn't a production line/run setup) instead they are hand made one by one which essentially means changes will or can happen.

Don't think anyone is arguing or complaining here, just would like to call it what it is. Obviously some of us believed enough into the Z* series to give PicoBrew thousands of our hard earned money as a free loan until the production run is finished. We didn't "buy a transitional" finished product, but rather invested into a product strategy and vision.

 

[Anyhowe]

Wouldn't most of the hardware already have been tested decently well in the field via the Zymatic? I'm on pre-order for the Z2, but closely watching this thread. I've considered a couple of options instead of the Z2, but I don't see anything that is close to the automation and functionality that is hinted at by the Z2. With 2 kids, I find my brew time to be challenging, so the set it and forget it (what's up Ron Popiel) as the most important factor in a purchase. I don't want to babysit anything if I don't have to.

I'm wondering if there is a better way to brew (1 larger container instead of 2 corny kegs) that will be developed. Personally, I'd prefer to brew, chill, and ferment via a single vessel - like a SS Brewtech Brewbucket or Conical? Just some thoughts...

Brewing is fun. Hanging around and babysitting a thermometer and a clock does not excite me. Not having to babysit for temps and additions is the big plus of the Z for me.

I have a hard(er) time bitching about the best fully automatic system on the market. I’ll take it for what it is until something better comes along.

 

[Trevor Mack]

With 2 kids, I find my brew time to be challenging, so the set it and forget it (what's up Ron Popiel) as the most important factor in a purchase. I don't want to babysit anything if I don't have to.

Yes so much, that is basically where I'm at. I also have a couple of other dad's that are in the same boat and would like to dabble with me in setting up recipes and experimentations. When shipped this will meet us exactly where we are (the hope at least). I'm actually kicking myself that I didn't get into Zymatic originally, but guess I'll have the v2 of it soon enough.

 

[Mike Howard]

Starting to sound like an argument looking for a discussion.

No argument....simply stating the obvious. You can discuss or not...doesn't really matter to me. I'm very familiar with what Picobrew is all about and personally think they aren't that great. Already stated numerous times I love my Zymatic, ordered the Z2, but I'm no fan boy trying to justify their actions.

A company, startup or not, if they are being honest with everyone would just put up. It's obvious they placed a prototype at the Herbfarm and more obvious that they have not done any testing. Can't rely on the Zymatic parts to understand MTBF because they changed all those out.

Trust me, someone else will come along and make a better product. Picobrew isn't well known for their ability to keep promises or their ability to deliver upgrades. Been waiting on Zym updates for years...

 

[Trevor Mack]

A company, startup or not, if they are being honest with everyone would just put up. It's obvious they placed a prototype at the Herbfarm and more obvious that they have not done any testing. Can't rely on the Zymatic parts to understand MTBF because they changed all those out.

100% agree, a successful startup / crowdfunding campaign (yes this was a preorder direct from PicoBrew and not KickStarter / Indiegogo / etc. I personally prefer that for established entities as less is given way as overhead to host the web content and drive advertising eyes) would keep their backing community abreast to what is going on **openly**, what testing is taking place etc.

 

[Mike Howard]

Exactly...just be honest. I'd love for them to tell me when I could actually expect my Z2 and that they will be working on upgrades and mods as we go....even if that is next year...

 

[Anyhowe]

I'm very familiar with what Picobrew is all about and personally think they aren't that great.

Trust me, someone else will come along and make a better product. .

Hey I’m no fan boy. Reality is they have had a monopoly in the market since its arrival some 5+ years ago. No one (outside of the brewie fiasco, which maybe is the exception that proves the poInt) has been able to produce a reliable competing product. Never mind a better one. Nada, no one. Yet apparently “They aren’t that great.” Lol.

Luv ya man but this is getting silly.

 

[Mike Howard]

Luv ya man but this is getting silly.

lol..its whatevs bro. We all have opinions. But history is always correct. I'm not trying to change anyones opinion....just giving mine. Take it or leave it. I'll stand behind my "picobrew isn't great" comment...and I mean the company...actually the support dept.

 

[Anyhowe]

Others may already know this. Seeing a less than ideal flow rate into the system, I checked the ball lock, no problem, checked the poppet no problem. I pulled out the dip tube and noticed the washer at the top showed some deterioration. I replaced and the flow rate increased dramatically.

 

[Mike Howard]

Yep, usually replace those seals a couple times a year with this: $8 Amazon Prime

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0105JJ8L2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I always use Keg lube and a bit of teflon tape on the posts and never have any cavitation issues anymore. The Zymatic is notorious for suction issues on the black line, but usually an easy fix.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Yep, usually replace those seals a couple times a year with this: $8 Amazon Prime

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0105JJ8L2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I always use Keg lube and a bit of teflon tape on the posts and never have any cavitation issues anymore. The Zymatic is notorious for suction issues on the black line, but usually an easy fix.

There's a great thread here with the McMaster parts # for each type of keg o-ring if you want to order in bulk.

I stocked up a couple of years ago and still have tons of them laying around. I like having so many on hand because then it's never a question on whether to swap out a seal or not.

 

[Brewfreedom]

We all now know where you live.....I would edit the link.

This is the kind of garbage programming that has gone into their API and probably the firmware btw. To be able to link directly to someone's order like that. That is pants crapping bad. I'm guessing the rest of their ecommerce system is like that too.

 

[Anyhowe]

This is the kind of garbage programming that has gone into their API and probably the firmware btw. To be able to link directly to someone's order like that. That is pants crapping bad. I'm guessing the rest of their ecommerce system is like that too.

Damn. It is as if they shipped it or something. Wtf...

 

[Brewfreedom]

Damn. It is as if they shipped it or something. Wtf...

Talking about the Zymatic. The Z doesn't actually exist yet.

 

[Brewfreedom]

But come on. At least on an order link check for user credentials? That's just lame. I can't get to my brewhouse without logging in. Why order status? Its all good. All of our recipe usage goes straight to inbev anyway.

 

[Anyhowe]

But come on. At least on an order link check for user credentials? That's just lame. I can't get to my brewhouse without logging in. Why order status? Its all good. All of our recipe usage goes straight to inbev anyway.

Yup. I bet someone made some good cash on the institutional knowledge that comes from the units. Maybe more than the units themselves??

 

[Brewfreedom]

Yup. I bet someone made some good cash on the institutional knowledge that comes from the units. Maybe more than the units themselves??

Yeah. ZX-Ventures (inbev). They own em. Along with northern brewer and midwest. This isnt new or anything. The tinfoil nutters such as myself assume this is to disrupt the homebrew market. A term they use a lot. Or otherwise to ensure you have to go through their paywall somehow.

 

[Mike Howard]

Picobrew straight up told me that their database contains every bit of user data ever generated...even if you delete it, they still have it. It never leaves their system. Think on that.

 

[Mike Howard]

Yup. I bet someone made some good cash on the institutional knowledge that comes from the units. Maybe more than the units themselves??

There are quite a few micro-breweries developing on the Zymatic....Herbfarm is a great example. You think they know that their recipes are open to anyone at Picobrew? None of us signed an NDA or anything....what's in their DB is technically theirs.