Perpetually long lag times with starters....

[ikezilla]

I've been brewing for a about 2 years now and have recently moved into liquid yeasts with starters for all of my brews. The forum suggests this should help kickstart fermentation, validate yeast health, etc., etc., but I'm finding I can't get any signs of fermentation for at least 24 hours. I know airlock activity isn't always a necessary sign of fermenting, but in these cases I eventually get significant bubbling/airlock activity it just always takes at least 24 hours. Most recent example:

I brewed an IPA with 1.064 OG on Sunday - had a 1L starter (WLP002 with 100g extra light DME, 24 hours in advance with regular shaking, no stir plate) that was bubbling happily, cooled the wort to ~68 deg, aerated with a drill and mix-stirrer for 1-2 minutes (until I had some nice foam), pitched, and put in a temp controlled fermentation chamber. I set the temp at 62 deg F and left it. Came back Monday AM, no activity. I thought maybe I'd stalled the yeast growth with low temps, so I upped the temp to 64 degrees. Waited all day, no activity. Upped it again to 66, then 68 degrees and left over night. Here I am 36 hours after pitching and still no airlock activity. I picked up some SA-05 and if there is still no activity tonight (48 hours in) I'll pull the lid, check hydrometer readings, and repitch if need be.

Long and short of it - all of my starters have been producing bubbles, CO2, and are all ~ 1L, 24 hours in advance with hand shaking, but I can't seem to get my fermentation going in less than 24 hours (or apparently at all in the last example). Not sure if I'm not aerating enough pre-pitch, or not giving the starters enough time in advance, or what the issue may be.

Any thoughts/advice/recommendations?

 

[Homercidal]

Stop using the airlock as a sign of active fermentation.

Also, liquid yeast *might* be faster to get going than dry, but there are variables to consider. In your case I think fermentation should happen pretty quick. Therefore I think you need to stop judging the quality of the fermentation by the airlock. They lie.

In any case, there is always going to be some lag when pitching. The yeast spend a bit of time reproducing before going after the wort. Adding oxygen increases that lag as the yeast spend more time reproducing (in general).

Embrace the lag time! Let the yeast do their thing.

I can't tell you how many times I've thought my fermentation wasn't going only to lift the bucket lid to see very active fermentation (You are using buckets, right? if you are using carboys then the airlock is probably a decent indicator of fermentation...)

Bottom line is that you seem to be giving the yeast all they need. They will do what they do.

And I don't necessarily agree that liquid yeast gives a better fermentation. That is a subject that could be debated.

 

[kombat]

Sounds like your starters are too small. 5 gallons of 1.064 ale would require approximately 250 billion cells. Your smack-pack is starting with less than 100 billion (unless it's factory-fresh), and a 1-liter starter isn't going to boost that terribly significantly. I'd use Mr. Malty to calculate your starter sizes.

Also, prepare them more than a day ahead of time (like, 3-4), then cold-crash and decant them prior to pitching.

Finally, you'll get more growth from your starters if you invest in a stir plate.

For your current batch, I wouldn't pitch any more yeast. If your starter fermented, then your beer will eventually take off. It's just taking time to build up their numbers because you underpitched. By this point, they're probably done reproducing anyway, and you should see active fermentation by now, or shortly.

 

[ikezilla]

Yep - I'm still using standard plastic buckets. I'll try Mr. Malty next time and give it a few extra days, I mostly suck at planning ahead and decide on Friday or Saturday that it's going to be a brew weekend.

I'll do my best to embrace the lag.... damn it's hard though! I appreciate the feedback, I wanted to make sure my process wasn't screwing anything up too badly. I'l work on being more accurate with starter size and time - maybe this'll convince the wife we need to invest in a stir plate!

 

[jddevinn]

1. unless you are taking gravity readings you are just guessing and changing temps/adding yeast randomly. Take gravity readings.
2. 1L starter is very small, what's the batch size?
3. aeration is good. If you want the fermentation to really kick off quickly oxygenate.
4. what yeast did you pitch for 64°F? Why only cool the wort to 68°F if you want to ferment at 64°F?
5. What temp are you measuring? the air or the beer?

1L is very small for a starter.
Assuming 100% original viability (and a single pack starter) and a 1.037 SG starter manual aeration will give you an inoculation rate of ~98mil/mil for a total ~160 billion cells. (you are not going to have 100% original viability)

A 12 gallon batch of 1.064 SG requires ~534 billion cells
A 5 gallon batch ~222 billion
a 1 gallon batch ~44 billion

Basically you underpitched for anything other than a 1 gallon batch.

 

[ikezilla]

1) Agreed - I've been trying to avoid oxygen exposure, but I'll pull a sample and test gravity as soon as I get home

2) Batch size is ~ 5.5gal

3) I've been looking into oxygen systems, but thus far have been aerating using a drill + stirring stick

4) I pitched WLP002, per White Labs optimal is 65-68 deg F. I honestly just assumed 68 was close enough - I wanted to get the fermenter sealed up and minimize exposure risk so I've been pitching anytime I get below 70 degrees and then cooling any further inside my fermentation chamber.

5) Measuring the beer temp via thermowell + temp probe inside the center of the fermenter

I didn't realize how weak my 1L starters have been... looks like getting more yeasties might be my main issue. Thanks for the insight!!

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I've been brewing for a about 2 years now and have recently moved into liquid yeasts with starters for all of my brews. The forum suggests this should help kickstart fermentation, validate yeast health, etc., etc., but I'm finding I can't get any signs of fermentation for at least 24 hours. I know airlock activity isn't always a necessary sign of fermenting, but in these cases I eventually get significant bubbling/airlock activity it just always takes at least 24 hours. Most recent example:

I brewed an IPA with 1.064 OG on Sunday - had a 1L starter (WLP002 with 100g extra light DME, 24 hours in advance with regular shaking, no stir plate) that was bubbling happily, cooled the wort to ~68 deg, aerated with a drill and mix-stirrer for 1-2 minutes (until I had some nice foam), pitched, and put in a temp controlled fermentation chamber. I set the temp at 62 deg F and left it. Came back Monday AM, no activity. I thought maybe I'd stalled the yeast growth with low temps, so I upped the temp to 64 degrees. Waited all day, no activity. Upped it again to 66, then 68 degrees and left over night. Here I am 36 hours after pitching and still no airlock activity. I picked up some SA-05 and if there is still no activity tonight (48 hours in) I'll pull the lid, check hydrometer readings, and repitch if need be.

Long and short of it - all of my starters have been producing bubbles, CO2, and are all ~ 1L, 24 hours in advance with hand shaking, but I can't seem to get my fermentation going in less than 24 hours (or apparently at all in the last example). Not sure if I'm not aerating enough pre-pitch, or not giving the starters enough time in advance, or what the issue may be.

Any thoughts/advice/recommendations?

Just a comment...

I did a yeast starter for the first time, asked a lot of questions for a lager I as attempting...my first lager also. Anyhow, I just had to trust the method worked for making my starter and pitch the yeast. I had that dang lager in there for a month and I am going crazy...literally b/c I see no airlock activity the first time for me as well. I think man...did my start work...but I remember reading every day....every other post....don't open the beer its fine.

So long story short...I let it ride...I never posted about it...I waited...then finally the day came and when I opened up the bucket had a nice karusen and a fantastic lager. Lesson is...you have to trust the process.

 

[jddevinn]

1) Agreed - I've been trying to avoid oxygen exposure, but I'll pull a sample and test gravity as soon as I get home

2) Batch size is ~ 5.5gal

3) I've been looking into oxygen systems, but thus far have been aerating using a drill + stirring stick

4) I pitched WLP002, per White Labs optimal is 65-68 deg F. I honestly just assumed 68 was close enough - I wanted to get the fermenter sealed up and minimize exposure risk so I've been pitching anytime I get below 70 degrees and then cooling any further inside my fermentation chamber.

5) Measuring the beer temp via thermowell + temp probe inside the center of the fermenter

I didn't realize how weak my 1L starters have been... looks like getting more yeasties might be my main issue. Thanks for the insight!!

Look at the yeast calculators online most are similar. I've been using http://www.brewunited.com/downloadable_yeast_calculator.php calculotor and overbuilding my starters.

when I used carboys I sampled my gravity like below with a refractometer.

A small section of ss tubing screwed to the end of a 100 cc syringe straight through the airlock.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XN9FXS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

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