Paulaner and Hacker Pschorr Oktoberfestbiers

[z-bob]

Are they the same thing this year? (2020) I bought a case of each at Costco because I'd never tried them before (I usually drink Hofbräu) and I thought they were awfully similar. I just poured one of each into identical glasses; they look the same. I held them up to a light and they are the same color. And I couldn't tell any difference in the smell or the taste. Both are 5.8% ABV. Both are imported by Paulaner USA.

I saw a youtube video comparing the 2016 versions, and they were different colors but the reviewer couldn't distinguish them blindfolded. This year I don't think he'd need the blindfold.

They are both excellent, BTW. I just wonder how they could both be the same thing since they are made at different breweries. Hofbräu is totally different, and it's great too. I think HB is my favorite but maybe that's just because it's higher alcohol.

 

[Vale71]

I just wonder how they could both be the same thing since they are made at different breweries.

It's been the same brewery for quite a while. The new plant (they eventually had to close down the city plant) was just a short drive from where I lived when I was in Munich, BTW. I can't help but wonder why they would keep selling the same beer under both names...

 

[Brooothru]

It's been the same brewery for quite a while. The new plant (they eventually had to close down the city plant) was just a short drive from where I lived when I was in Munich, BTW. I can't help but wonder why they would keep selling the same beer under both names...

I never knew that.

Just the other day I was facing a quandary. I hadn't brewed a Fest bier this year in honor of Crazy Ludwig's nuptials, so there I stood in the liquor store trying to decide which of my favorite German beers I'd select for the celebration. It got down to either Hacker-Schorr or Paulaner.

Guess it didn't matter after all.

Brooo Brother

 

[Lefou]

I'm glad someone can find a double shot of good German festbier locally.
The shops around here wouldn't know WTF that stuff was, let alone being able to pronounce it. I haven't seen Paulaner O-fest Wiesn for almost two years now, even after asking for it. Had to settle for Weihenstephaner brews (excellent stuff, BTW) last year because the distributors don't carry Paulaner seasonals. One local store carried an overstock of the Sam Adams crystal poisoned O-fest and wasn't able to sell the 28 bottle cases into the next summer - even at a discount. I bought a few of the much better Winter Lagers for winter warmers instead.
One of my kids lives in an area where we can get Wernesgrüner Pils at a fifty percent discount to what the local Mob asks for imported sixpacks here in NJ. Now you know why I brew at home when I get a chance.
The wife, bless her, will usually bring a couple sixers back with her after visiting him.

 

[z-bob]

I'm glad someone can find a double shot of good German festbier locally.
The shops around here wouldn't know WTF that stuff was, let alone being able to pronounce it. I haven't seen Paulaner O-fest Wiesn for almost two years now, even after asking for it. Had to settle for Weihenstephaner brews (excellent stuff, BTW) last year because the distributors don't carry Paulaner seasonals. One local store carried an overstock of the Sam Adams crystal poisoned O-fest and wasn't able to sell the 28 bottle cases into the next summer - even at a discount. I bought a few of the much better Winter Lagers for winter warmers instead.
One of my kids lives in an area where we can get Wernesgrüner Pils at a fifty percent discount to what the local Mob asks for imported sixpacks here in NJ. Now you know why I brew at home when I get a chance.
The wife, bless her, will usually bring a couple sixers back with her after visiting him.

The local Costco gets cases of German festbier every year. Usually it's Hofbräu, Paulaner, and Hacker P, then they have a bunch of US versions that I generally avoid because they are too sweet. I'll buy a 6-pack sometimes at the liquor store to try them, especially whatever Sierra Nevada is doing because theirs is different every year, but not a whole case. I bought cases of all three of the Germans this year. (why is the banana green?)

Is a little bit of crystal okay if you're brewing your own and use a highly-attenuative yeast? Or should it all be Pils, Vienna, and Munich? I'm working on a recipe and I have 40-something pounds of a local malt that seems pretty close to Weyermann's Abbey Malt and I was planning to use about 22% that in place of Munich, 22% Vienna, 50% Franco-Belges pils, and 5% 45L carawheat for a more color and foam. And German Tradition hops.

 

[jdauria]

Is a little bit of crystal okay if you're brewing your own and use a highly-attenuative yeast? Or should it all be Pils, Vienna, and Munich? I'm working on a recipe and I have 40-something pounds of a local malt that seems pretty close to Weyermann's Abbey Malt and I was planning to use about 22% that in place of Munich, 22% Vienna, 50% Franco-Belges pils, and 5% 45L carawheat for a more color and foam. And German Tradition hops.

From Bryan Rabe on the LowOxygenbrewing site, Paulaner recipe right from the brewery is 70% Pils, 30% light Munich, so Munich I. Hobrau is 60% Pils, 30% Vienna, 10% Carahell and Augustiner is basically a Helles brewed to stronger gravity, so like 95% Pils 5% Carahell. Nothing listed for Hacker Pschorr's.

 

[Vale71]

Sounds completely made up. It's no wonder considering the source.

 

[MrPowers]

Sounds completely made up. It's no wonder considering the source.

If you have any alternative primary sources to add add value to the discussion, we're all ears.

The 70/30 Pils/Munich I Paulaner recipe is exactly in line with the ingredients they list on their website.

 

[Vale71]

If you have any alternative primary sources to add add value to the discussion, we're all ears.

No, I don't have an alternative primary source simply because there are NO available primary sources at all.

I mean, seriously, are people really so naive as to think that a large brewery would actually divulge trade secrets freely to random people?

Those who really do know what happens there have signed NDAs and will not, under any circumstance, divulge confidential information to anybody. Those that claim to have obtained such information "on the side" are just making everything up, period.

As to the ingredients list here is what they have on their website:

" Pilsner Malz (Helles Gerstenmalz), Münchner Malz (Dunkles Gerstenmalz) "

So by your reasoning a recipe of 10% Pilsner and 90% Munich is also in line with the ingredients list and must therefore be true? In other words, there are an infinite numbers of matching recipes and therefore they must all be true??

 

[Lupulus]

If you have two base malts with a color spec and a beer color spec, there's only one malt combination that would meet the beer color spec. This is likely the way he came up with the percentages.

 

[MrPowers]

So by your reasoning a recipe of 10% Pilsner and 90% Munich is also in line with the ingredients list and must therefore be true? In other words, there are an infinite numbers of matching recipes and therefore they must all be true??

If you have two base malts with a color spec and a beer color spec, there's only one malt combination that would meet the beer color spec. This is likely the way he came up with the percentages.

^^This is exactly it. You have two malts that fall within a specific color range. There is only a narrow range of possibilities for the ways that you can combine them in order get the same spec as the finished beer. That obviously gets more complicated with 3-4 malts, but by applying logical recipe formulation principles for german beers, it's very easy to get into the ballpark. When you do that, you realize that Bryan's recipes make sense.

As far as NDA's go, that's probably true and is a prudent move by any business. However, a lot of the large breweries in germany are using proprietary malts/processes/etc... they know that even if someone has the recipe, the best they are going to be able to do is get close.

 

[z-bob]

It sounds like a little crystal 10 malt is okay but not necessary. Darker crystal is out of place.

I've been playing with the numbers in BrewersFriend. 70% pils and 30% Abbey malt (then throw in about 3% acid malt and mess up the percentages) will get me a nice Märzen. 75% pils and 25% Abbey will get me something just slightly too dark for style for a festbier, but looks a little lighter to me than the Paulaner and HP.

I think I will go with the 75:25 ratio and brew it to about 5.9% ABV and 23 IBUs. I haven't used this malt enough to trust it at 30%, even tho' that's not that much more than 25 and the malter says you can go up to 50%. (I've been putting about 4 ounces in every beer I make for a little extra maltiness)

 

[Vale71]

If you have two base malts with a color spec and a beer color spec, there's only one malt combination that would meet the beer color spec. This is likely the way he came up with the percentages.

They all contract out their proprietary malt so there is no way of knowing what they mean by light and dark malt, making the spectrum of possible combinations quite broad actually. In any case any recipe that is based on that alone is just a wild guess at best. I believe that's a far cry from "straight from the brewery", wouldn't you all agree?

 

[MrPowers]

So an "educated guess" now counts as a "primary source"? Looks to me like you're all trying to win at the "backpedalling olympics".

One thing you got right is that they all contract out their proprietary malt so there is no way of knowing what they mean by light and dark malt, making the spectrum of possible combinations quite broad actually. In any case any recipe that is based on that alone is just a wild guess at best. I believe that's a far cry from "straight from the brewery", wouldn't you all agree?

I didn't make the claim to have gotten the recipes straight from the brewery. I make the claim that Bryan's recipes make sense using publicly available information, therefore I have no reason do doubt the the claim to their validity. Plus, it helps that the recipes themselves actually make good beer.

As far as using Abbey Malt in a Festbier/Marzen, it definitely won't be traditional. Traditional ingredients would be some combination of Pils, Munich I/II, Carahell, Caramunich I/II/III, possibly vienna, and possibly sinamar. I haven't used abbey malt enough to know if 25-30% is too much, but Weyermann's usage charts are usually very helpful. I would probably back it down to the 10% range and make up the balance with munich I. If you've already used it in that range and think you can get away with using more, go for it!

 

[Lefou]

I bought cases of all three of the Germans this year.

Good for you.
Fest 2020 is going to be a bit tighter for me. I scored one case of the Hacker-Pschorr O-fest Marzen for $42 plus tax.
Jersey robbers, I tell ya.
The one good shop I sometimes buy from had no less than five choices this year. Still eyeing a case of Ayinger ....
Small capped twelve ouncers, unfortunately. Last year was a good year because three cases of W-stephaner fell into my paws, but not this time.
Enjoy!

 

[z-bob]

I didn't make the claim to have gotten the recipes straight from the brewery. I make the claim that Bryan's recipes make sense using publicly available information, therefore I have no reason do doubt the the claim to their validity. Plus, it helps that the recipes themselves actually make good beer.

As far as using Abbey Malt in a Festbier/Marzen, it definitely won't be traditional. Traditional ingredients would be some combination of Pils, Munich I/II, Carahell, Caramunich I/II/III, possibly vienna, and possibly sinamar. I haven't used abbey malt enough to know if 25-30% is too much, but Weyermann's usage charts are usually very helpful. I would probably back it down to the 10% range and make up the balance with munich I. If you've already used it in that range and think you can get away with using more, go for it!

Thank-you. Weyermann's also says up to 50%. But I like the idea of backing that down to 10% until I get to know the stuff better, and making up the difference with Munich. (I have some Munich.) That will also lighten the color a little and bring it in range. Next time I can try 20%

 

[Big Monk]

While not a lager brewer myself, I am always amazed at what variety the bigger German breweries can get out of such a similar (and small) ingredient pool. Goes to show you how simplicity is king with lagers and the Trappist ales I love so much.

 

[LokiM4]

Discussions of the grist aside, was there any indication of the hops schedule for the Paulaner by Bryan on the site? I know what they list as the hops used and I’m guessing the Herc is a 60 minute bittering, but what time do they add the H.Tradition and how much?

thanks in advance for any info!

 

[MrPowers]

Discussions of the grist aside, was there any indication of the hops schedule for the Paulaner by Bryan on the site? I know what they list as the hops used and I’m guessing the Herc is a 60 minute bittering, but what time do they add the H.Tradition and how much?

thanks in advance for any info!

I don't believe there is any specific guidance for that recipe. But, aside from Pils, the general guidance for german beers is to have a single hop addition added early in the boil (not necessarily 60 minutes, but definitely before 30 minutes). Pils can have small 30 minute and small late additions. If you aren't boiling too hard, there should be a nice subtle hop flavor/aroma that comes through into the finished beer.

 

[LokiM4]

From Bryan Rabe on the LowOxygenbrewing site, Paulaner recipe right from the brewery is 70% Pils, 30% light Munich, so Munich I. Hobrau is 60% Pils, 30% Vienna, 10% Carahell and Augustiner is basically a Helles brewed to stronger gravity, so like 95% Pils 5% Carahell. Nothing listed for Hacker Pschorr's.

I probably should have quoted you when I asked my question above, any info given by your source on the hops schedule in the Paulaner?

I don't believe there is any specific guidance for that recipe. But, aside from Pils, the general guidance for german beers is to have a single hop addition added early in the boil (not necessarily 60 minutes, but definitely before 30 minutes). Pils can have small 30 minute and small late additions. If you aren't boiling too hard, there should be a nice subtle hop flavor/aroma that comes through into the finished beer.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[-Dan-]

As far as NDA's go, that's probably true and is a prudent move by any business. However, a lot of the large breweries in germany are using proprietary malts/processes/etc... they know that even if someone has the recipe, the best they are going to be able to do is get close.

To go further down this rabbit hole, keep in mind that many breweries, small and large, actually malt themselves (or with local mills) from regional ingredients. After all in Germany, if you go to school to become a brewer you're also a maltster, that goes hand in hand unless you only do a little crash course w/o diploma/degree. So their spec by user Pilsner is pilsner malt but there's more than a little variation when it comes down to it

 

[MrPowers]

To go further down this rabbit hole, keep in mind that many breweries, small and large, actually malt themselves (or with local mills) from regional ingredients. After all in Germany, if you go to school to become a brewer you're also a maltster, that goes hand in hand unless you only do a little crash course w/o diploma/degree. So their spec by user Pilsner is pilsner malt but there's more than a little variation when it comes down to it

Thats true, but there are only so many ways that you can malt Pilsner malt and have it still taste like pilsner malt. There will be some variation in flavor, yes, but you can’t get too far outside of the parameters that contribute that core flavor.

We have a good idea of what those parameters are by looking at products from the major malt houses in Germany. They have to have a marketable product. ie. A product that’s representative of what the widest range of breweries are looking for out of specific malts. If you average those offerings out, you can get a sense of the general range that would be considered Pilsner malt, etc...

 

[monkeymath]

To go further down this rabbit hole, keep in mind that many breweries, small and large, actually malt themselves

"Many" might be a bit of a stretch here. Of the major ones, Augustiner is the only one that I am aware of. And their Tennenmalz is only part of the grist (I have no clue what the percentage might be).
While I love their Helles, I found their Oktoberfestbier overly sweet. Paulaner's was much better.

 

[jdauria]

I probably should have quoted you when I asked my question above, any info given by your source on the hops schedule in the Paulaner?

Thanks for the insight.

You're welcome. From Paulaner's website, it appears they use Herkules and Hallertauer Tradition. I would say 22-26 IBUs probably. Maybe Herkules at First Wort and Tradition at 30 mins? That's just a guess though. They apparently use a special version of Tradition grown for them, but regular Tradition will get you close.

 

[Brooothru]

You're welcome. From Paulaner's website, it appears they use Herkules and Hallertauer Tradition. I would say 22-26 IBUs probably. Maybe Herkules at First Wort and Tradition at 30 mins? That's just a guess though. They apparently use a special version of Tradition grown for them, but regular Tradition will get you close.

I'm surprised that they'd use Herkules in such a traditional style beer, since it was only released in 2005. I've never used it and can't speak to its efficacy, but I frequently use Magnum and Taurus as FWH in German lagers. They're all very high AA% hops, so it doesn't take much to get the job done. My preference is Magnum with good bittering but mostly clean and somewhat neutral in flavor and aroma.

 

[LokiM4]

You're welcome. From Paulaner's website, it appears they use Herkules and Hallertauer Tradition. I would say 22-26 IBUs probably. Maybe Herkules at First Wort and Tradition at 30 mins? That's just a guess though. They apparently use a special version of Tradition grown for them, but regular Tradition will get you close.

That’s the advice I had gotten previously and read previously on traditional German hopping, it makes sense for this application so I think I’ll go with it.

I'm surprised that they'd use Herkules in such a traditional style beer, since it was only released in 2005. I've never used it and can't speak to its efficacy, but I frequently use Magnum and Taurus as FWH in German lagers. They're all very high AA% hops, so it doesn't take much to get the job done. My preference is Magnum with good bittering but mostly clean and somewhat neutral in flavor and aroma.

The Herkules surprised me too, but as a bittering addition it wouldn’t impart much flavor so perhaps there is an economic or contractual reason they’re using it? I had planned on using Magnum as you detail, it’s my go to for bittering German styles and is quite clean which should let the grist shine thru.

Thanks all for the thoughts.

 

[MrPowers]

That’s the advice I had gotten previously and read previously on traditional German hopping, it makes sense for this application so I think I’ll go with it.



The Herkules surprised me too, but as a bittering addition it wouldn’t impart much flavor so perhaps there is an economic or contractual reason they’re using it? I had planned on using Magnum as you detail, it’s my go to for bittering German styles and is quite clean which should let the grist shine thru.

Thanks all for the thoughts.

My opinion, If Paulaner is using Herkules, then there is a reason. They could source magnum if they wanted to, but they prefer the flavor out of Herkules (even out of bittering additions).

Edit: Herkules, not Taurus.

 

[LokiM4]

My opinion, If Paulaner is using Taurus, then there is a reason. They could source magnum if they wanted to, but they prefer the flavor out of Taurus (even out of bittering additions).

I assume you mean Herkules? Paulaner list Herkules as the hop they use, not Taurus.

 

[MrPowers]

I assume you mean Herkules? Paulaner list Herkules as the hop they use, not Taurus.

Yes, I misspoke. Herkules. Taurus is a different high alpha German hop.

 

[Big Monk]

Keep in mind, hops are also agricultural products. Tradition won’t keep any brewery from using what keeps thier flavor profiles intact.

 

[LokiM4]

Keep in mind, hops are also agricultural products. Tradition won’t keep any brewery from using what keeps thier flavor profiles intact.

While also maintaining their bottom line-as I alluded to based in the mention that the Tradition could be a strain specially grown for them-that in order to maintain it the hop grower may have gotten them to contract for their Herkules crop as well.

 

[Brooothru]

Keep in mind, hops are also agricultural products. Tradition won’t keep any brewery from using what keeps thier flavor profiles intact.

You're exactly right. We tend to think of these breweries as unchanging icons since they have been established and in business for literally hundreds of years. But at their core they are, after all, commercial enterprises.

It reminds me of what we used to say about the U.S. Navy: "240 years of Tradition totally unencumbered by Progress."

Brooo Brother