Partial/Mini Mash vs Steeping

[skokott]

I started brewing by steeping crushed grains at ~150F for 1/2 hour.

I'm having difficulty understanding the difference between partial mash and steeping. In this case the grains are crushed and my LHBS guy said it's to allow the fermentable sugars to be more easily accessible.

That seems to imply that fermentation rather than just flavoring (steeping) is going on.

So is this a partial mash or is soaking and sparging required? Especially for the recipes on this board when it says partial can I simply read "Crushed Grain Soaking" can also be done?

Very dumb question I know but I've googled here, elsewhere and gone through HTB again and I can't find it. It's probably right in front of my nose. (Sorry)

I used 1 qt per pound grain when I did this also.

 

[Bramstoker17]

A partial mash consists of a base malt with or without some specialty grains steeped in a specific amont of water for a specific time. Thats a pretty simple way of looking at it, but that's the gist. If you steep some crystal malt in a few gallons of water, you'll get color and flavor and unfermentable sugars, but there wont be any fermentable sugars. However, add some two row base malt with some crystal at about 1.25 quarts of water per pound (just an example) and steep that for an hour at a consistant temp (usually between 145 and 160 depending on stye), then you'll have the enzymes from the two row converting into fermentable sugars, and getting some fermentables from the crystal

 

[Bramstoker17]

What was the malt you used? Base malt needs to be mashed, crystal and many other specialty malts can be steeped. Grains will be crushed regardless of steeping or mashing. If you just did a grain steep on an extract brew, then you don't need to worry about sparging.

If you held your grains at 150 for about a half hour, and you used 1 qt/lb, if you had base malt then yes, you did a partial mash. A sparge in this situation probably isn't required, but you'll get more sugar if you do.

 

[skokott]

Basically I had some base malt like Pale DME (and some other LME I can't recall) and added the crushed grains that I steeped in a bag for 1/2 hour and then added remaining water along with the base malt.

Is that then a partial mash? If so why not call it Steeping since you'd never steep without a base malt/base grain(all grain) anyway?

Trying to reproduce this

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f72/supplication-clone-339205/

and wondering if I need to soak and sparge equipment / procedure etc.

BS17 I was told not to pour water over grain bag because it would release tannins.

 

[Bramstoker17]

When I say base malt, I'm not referring to extract, but something like 2 row malt. It sounds like you had some crushed specialty grains for flavor/color, then got your fermantables from the DME/LME. If this is the case, then no, it would not be a partial mash, just a grain steep as you are not extracting sugars from the grain

 

[Ridire]

Steeping and mashing are essentially the same thing. What you are doing with your grains here is nearly identical to how BIAB all grain brewers mash. The only difference is that temperatures are more important when you are mashing than when you are just steeping.

The difference = if you are getting fermentable sugars from your grain, then you are mashing. If you are just getting flavor and color from your grains then you are steeping.

If your steeping/mashing water is too warm, then the sugars you get from your base malts will not be fermentable. That is why he is telling you ~ 150F.

EDIT: and to clarify, "Base Malts" just means the grains you can extract fermentable sugars from (2-Row, for example) while "Specialty Malts" are just grains that give off no fermentable sugars...they are for taste and color only.

 

[Bramstoker17]

If you used Vienna malt, which is a base malt, than yea you did a partial mash, as that has some starches that can convert to fermantable sugars, and helped to converts some sugars from the specialty grains. You probably won't get a lot out of them, but you probably got some. Most of your fermantables in that recipe come from the extract.

As far as pouring water and tannis, keep the water under 170 and you wont. Sparging is essentially just rinsing the grains.

Hope this clears things up!

 

[skokott]

Sorry, again.

So basically if you have the right temperature range ~150F, the right water to grain ratio and if the grain is crushed *and* the grain is a base grain capable of providing sugars for fermentation then it is a partial mash.

If any of these factors are missing it is just a steep.

Is that accurate?

 

[Ridire]

Sorry, again.

So basically if you have the right temperature range ~150F, the right water to grain ratio and if the grain is crushed *and* the grain is a base grain capable of providing sugars for fermentation then it is a partial mash.

If any of these factors are missing it is just a steep.

Is that accurate?

I'd say you're mashing even if you don't have the proper water to grain ratio. But you basically have it. My understanding is that you will still get fermentable conversion with improper water to grain ratio; the water to grain ratio (I believe) is only important for the mouth feel of the beer. Someone who knows more about the science behind the conversion of the starches may correct me here. But if you look at the guys who do BIAB, they are not using what is traditionally thought of as the proper water to grain ratios, yet they are getting fermentable sugars from their mash.

BIAB (Brew in a Bag) brewing is basically doing the same thing you are doing except that you are not using any extract and instead you are adding 10 lbs. or so of 2-Row (or some other base grain).

Once I figured that out, I immediately jumped into all grain. It's not as complicated as some on this board make it out to be.

EDIT: for full disclosure, I am still somewhat of a newbie but I have made several all grain BIAB batches now and have read more on the topic than is healthy over the past few months.

 

[skokott]

Awesome, thanks you guys.

BTW I'm jealous you're in Michigan. My favorite Great Lakes Edmund Fitzgerald is there. I gotta have it shipped at a hefty premium, so I'm gonna try to clone it at some point.

 

[Bramstoker17]

That's pretty much it, yep! The range that those things can be in is fairly wide though, and each thing can change the beer. For example, Mashing a beer at 150 vs 158 will result in different characteristics of the beer, depending on the style youre brewing. Same with water/grain ratios. Some people use thicker mashes than others, and that can influence the final beer. That's why they say that going all grain and even partial mashing gives you much more control over your beer. Its not as daunting as it seems once you start putting these things into practice, I promise!

 

[Ridire]

Awesome, thanks you guys.

BTW I'm jealous you're in Michigan. My favorite Great Lakes Edmund Fitzgerald is there. I gotta have it shipped at a hefty premium, so I'm gonna try to clone it at some point.

That was my favorite porter until this past weekend when I bought a sixer of Atwater Brewing's Vanilla Java Porter.

 

[Bramstoker17]

And like Ridire said, Brew in a Bag is an awesome way to get into all grain/mostly grain partial mashes. Look at this thread, it was a HUGE help to me:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

 

[unionrdr]

Too much water in the mash is said to alter the PH,& too little can mess with the enzymes in the base grains from converting fully. 1.25-2 quarts per pound of grain is the normal range. 145-155 is a decent range depending on style. I usually mash 5-6pounds of grain in 2 gallons of spring water @ 153F.
Mashing is also done in 1 hour typically,but some for 90 minutes when doing pilsners & the like. I've gotten good results mashing for an hour,unlike steeping which goes for 30 minutes & can use more water.

 

[Ridire]

Too much water in the mash is said to alter the PH,& too little can mess with the enzymes in the base grains from converting fully.

This makes sense based on what I've learned from playing with Bru'nwater to get my water profile right. The grains (according to what Bru'nwater calculates) add a lot of acid to the water and drop the ph considerably. Obviously more water per pound of grain would offset that decrease in ph to some degree...or at least it seems like it should.