Oxygenation = Over Attenuation?

[Korben]

Was thinking about purchasing an oxygenation system. I was reading reviews and saw this one (the first review). Can over oxygenation really lead to fusel alcohols? I thought fusel formation was mostly the result of too many simple sugars or high fermentation temps that were too high.

Also what is the difference between the oxynator and the economy besides the "higher quality components."

 

[malkore]

I don't know where you're getting info about over oxygenation and fusels. Too much pure O2 will 'burn' the yeast just like pure O2 will burn your lungs.

fusels really come from higher primary temps.

the only difference i see in those 2 items is the airstone.

that said, for $50 at Williams brewing you can get the same thing but the airstone's on a 22" long stainless steel 'wand' which means you can oxygenate from the bottom of the primary. the airstone on a hose has a tendancy to float from what I've heard. I have the Williams system.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I never get fusels and I always use O2 (for the last 90 or so batches I guess). I turn it down very low and give 60-90 secs of O2.

My beers DO tend to attenuate well but I've never had one that I consider over attenuated.

I basically use that first one, the Oxynator, though my system's tweaked now as the bottles here are different. I still use that tubing and stone though and it doesn't float. That one's heavy enough not to float. But the Williams system sounds cool.

 

[Korben]

I don't know where you're getting info about over oxygenation and fusels. Too much pure O2 will 'burn' the yeast just like pure O2 will burn your lungs.

fusels really come from higher primary temps.

the only difference i see in those 2 items is the airstone.

that said, for $50 at Williams brewing you can get the same thing but the airstone's on a 22" long stainless steel 'wand' which means you can oxygenate from the bottom of the primary. the airstone on a hose has a tendancy to float from what I've heard. I have the Williams system.

I thought that fusel's came form fermentation temps. But I just read that first review and wanted to ask since that is what the review said. Also, I will check out that williams systems sounds great.

 

[Revvy]

More than likely the poster is like a typical new brewer on here who only knows enough to mis diagnose the source of his issue. He thinks the stone is the cause of his problems, when in reality it's any number of OTHER reasons, like and infection or too high of fermentation temps, or something else.


you notice the latin slogan under my pic? "Post hos ergo Proptor hoc." google it, it's their for a reason, and the reason is exactly the issue here. Like other's have said, oxygenating your wort with this will not cause what he is experiencing. The same thing happens on here as well, a lot of new brewers diagnose what they think is causing the problem when they actually have little understanding of the brewing process yet, so they think because they change one thing, that that is the only thing that could cause the problem, when in reality there are outside factors, like poor temp control of sanitization or other things that could REALLY be the cause.

 

[samc]

More than likely the poster is like a typical new brewer on here who only knows enough to mis diagnose the source of his issue. He thinks the stone is the cause of his problems, when in reality it's any number of OTHER reasons, like and infection or too high of fermentation temps, or something else.


you notice the latin slogan under my pic? "Post hos ergo Proptor hoc." google it, it's their for a reason, and the reason is exactly the issue here. Like other's have said, oxygenating your wort with this will not cause what he is experiencing. The same thing happens on here as well, a lot of new brewers diagnose what they think is causing the problem when they actually have little understanding of the brewing process yet, so they think because they change one thing, that that is the only thing that could cause the problem, when in reality there are outside factors, like poor temp control of sanitization or other things that could REALLY be the cause.

Don't think the OP has any issues, he is just reading and trying to be proactive. A good quality in anyone. Cut him some slack.

The only thing funky (I have the Williams set up) is that the valve can be a bit flaky IMO.

 

[KevinW]

Don't think the OP has any issues, he is just reading and trying to be proactive. A good quality in anyone. Cut him some slack.

+1
The OP was asking if over-oxygenating could cause problems. Is that not one of the reasons we come to this site?

 

[Revvy]

Don't think the OP has any issues, he is just reading and trying to be proactive. A good quality in anyone. Cut him some slack.

The only thing funky (I have the Williams set up) is that the valve can be a bit flaky IMO.

I think I was pretty clear in my previous post.

I'm not giving the OP any slack...basically I said for him not to believe everything he reads. Especially if 9 out of 10 folks there are saying nothing is wrong, then more than likely person #10 us simply full of crap, pissed off, or doesn't know what he's talking about. Like attributing his problems to using the oxygen, not any factors such as infection, fermentation temps or any other factor.

Besides I'm sure the OP is a bigboy, and doesn't need defending, If he even took offense to what I wrote.

 

[Korben]

I think I was pretty clear in my previous post.

I'm not giving the OP any slack...basically I said for him not to believe everything he reads. Especially if 9 out of 10 folks there are saying nothing is wrong, then more than likely person #10 us simply full of crap, pissed off, or doesn't know what he's talking about. Like attributing his problems to using the oxygen, not any factors such as infection, fermentation temps or any other factor.

Besides I'm sure the OP is a bigboy, and doesn't need defending, If he even took offense to what I wrote.

I don't have any problems. I was just thinking about getting an oxygenation system just to improve my brewing no other reason. I came across that review and tried to find some info on it and really couldn't find anything. So I thought I would ask. I thought in my original post I mentioned I thought it was more likely fermentation temperature. Also, I wasn't offended by what Revvy said, but thanks for the defense anyway guys!

 

[Revvy]

I don't have any problems. I was just thinking about getting an oxygenation system just to improve my brewing no other reason. I came across that review and tried to find some info on it and really couldn't find anything. So I thought I would ask. I thought in my original post I mentioned I thought it was more likely fermentation temperature. Also, I wasn't offended by what Revvy said, but thanks for the defense anyway guys!

There's actually a ton of threads on that system here. I'm a big fan of it. I bought that one, but I took a broken piece of racking cane, cut a tiny piece of the hose as a bridge connect and rigged up my own. That way the stone doesn't float to the surface, and you can easily stick it in carboys, or even flasks if you are makign starters.

The only issues I have is that the regulator is cheap, and you have to crank it all the way open to get flow, and you do have to boil it every few batches or so, because the micropores do get clogged with wort and stuff.

 

[MVKTR2]

As to Revvy's "Post Hoc Ergo Proctor Hoc" tag line. Wikipedia put's it simple in the following summation, "The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection."

Fwiw I don't use an oxygenation system, and don't begrudge anything or disagree with those that do. I pour the heck out of my wort from boiler to fermenter and back about 6 or 8 times. Even with 1.090+ biers I get superb attenuation. Of course I'm using fermentation buckets and not carboys for primary which is an issue for many. Go for it, the research I did suggest oxygenation is superb and is only a bad thing if you're over-doing it, that's where you could put some reading into.

Schlante,
Phillip

 

[wendelgee2]

Jamil talks repeatedly about OVER oxygenation leading to fusels.
Even he and JP seem stumped as to why that might be...then again, their evidence for it being the fault of the over oxygenation is strictly anecdotal.
I think this might be what the reviewer is referring to.

 

[Revvy]

Jamil talks repeatedly about OVER oxygenation leading to fusels.
Even he and JP seem stumped as to why that might be...then again, their evidence for it being the fault of the over oxygenation is strictly anecdotal.
I think this might be what the reviewer is referring to.

They speak a lot of stuff like that that turns out to be a a bunch of hot air.

 

[SPLASTiK]

Jamil talks repeatedly about OVER oxygenation leading to fusels.
Even he and JP seem stumped as to why that might be...then again, their evidence for it being the fault of the over oxygenation is strictly anecdotal.
I think this might be what the reviewer is referring to.

I guess it makes sense to me. Over oxygenating with Pure 02 is toxic and could potentially damage/stress/kill yeast cells so it's sort of like underpitching in a way.

Wyeast Powerpoint Presentation:
Fusel Alcohols
# Conditions that favor formation include;
* Increase Oxygen
* Decrease Pitch Rate
* Increase Temp
* Increase Gravity
* Amino Acid Supplementation or Deficiency

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I guess it makes sense to me. Over oxygenating with Pure 02 is toxic and could potentially damage/stress/kill yeast cells so it's sort of like underpitching in a way.

Wyeast Powerpoint Presentation:
Fusel Alcohols
# Conditions that favor formation include;
* Increase Oxygen
* Decrease Pitch Rate
* Increase Temp
* Increase Gravity
* Amino Acid Supplementation or Deficiency

Great link. Thanks!