Oxidized?

[Mustard]

Drinking my 2nd batch of all grain. Doing a recipe I found on HBT Whitetail Amber Ale. 2nd attempt at this beer. 1st attempt I borrowed a corona mill and didnt' have the crush fine enough and did not have alot of conversion.
2nd Attempt everything seemed to go well but the beer tastes flat. There is carbination when you pop the top. You can see SOME bubbles when poured into a glass. Zero head. My PH was high in the mash (did not try to adjust PH, just let it be where it was) Primary fermentor in a bucket lid was on tight. I transfered to secondary when my auto syphon ran dry it put some air into the beer, Also I tilted the auto syphon upside down to get all beer into the secondary and it bubbled up a fair amount. Secondary was a 6.5 Gallon glass carboy. Airlock was on it tight as well. Would the bubbling from the auto syphon be enough to ruin the beer? What else could I be doing wrong? I have a batch of Black IPA ready to bottle this week, that I made sure the syphon hose wasn't in the bottle of the fermentor so it didnt' bubble. SO HOPEFULLY thats all it was?

 

[mrgrimm101]

When I started I had a few oxidized batches that were bad. They started great, but after a few weeks they were drain pours. However, the carbonation was fantastic..maybe a little overly carbonated. The head was actually much bigger than I was used to.

The bubbling could have harmed it. If it was just a quick bubble before you stopped it, I would say its doubtful.

Can you explain your bottling process? When I started, I didn't know how to properly bottle using a hose and bottling wand..I just bottled straight from the spigot and ended up with a couple terribly oxidized batches.

Can you explain what you mean by "I made sure the syphon hose wasn't in the bottle of the fermentor"?

 

[Mustard]

When I started I had a few oxidized batches that were bad. They started great, but after a few weeks they were drain pours. However, the carbonation was fantastic..maybe a little overly carbonated. The head was actually much bigger than I was used to.

The bubbling could have harmed it. If it was just a quick bubble before you stopped it, I would say its doubtful.

Can you explain your bottling process? When I started, I didn't know how to properly bottle using a hose and bottling wand..I just bottled straight from the spigot and ended up with a couple terribly oxidized batches.

Can you explain what you mean by "I made sure the syphon hose wasn't in the bottle of the fermentor"?

I had my primary on the counter with the auto syphon in and my secondary on the floor with the syphon hose laying on in the bottom of the carboy. So when I tilted up the auto syphon to get the beer out of the syphon into the secondary a rush of air comes afterwards and it bubbles up. Maybe a second or two. For my black IPA when I was near the end of the syphon I brought the end of the syphon hose up to the top of the carboy. ( JUST ontop of the beer not draining from top and splashing in.) SO that when I tilted the auto syphon up I wouldn't get any bubbling from the air. This beer is ready to bottle at the end of the week so I will know within a month if it was from the auto syphon.

For my bottling, I use the auto syphon with a bottling wand. I used 5 oz of dextrose boiled in 2 cups of water. Syphoned into bottling bucket gently stirred the beer to mix the sugar. Filled my bottles up about 1" from the top (Grolsch bottles) and closed the bottle. (Side note: I just thought of this. This would be about the 4th beer I've used the gaskets with. Could be I need new gaskets?) Anyway stored bottles in dark basement at 64 degrees.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Really the only way to answer this question is for you to intentionally create some oxidized beer. Perhaps a bit of a pain, but trust me -- once you experience the flavor, you'll never forget it. Personally, I perceive it as honey, and honey malt has a similar flavor to me.

You can try buying some really old lager from a grocery store, but it could have other problems on top of oxidation (e.g. light/skunk).

So try aerating a beer by shaking or O2 injection, then carbonating it. Quite easy if you have an O2 aerator and CO2 system with Carbonator cap. A little more involved if you don't.

 

[mrgrimm101]

5 oz seems like a lot, but that wouldn't explain why it's oxidized. Do you fill from the spigot using a hose and bottling wand, or do you stick the siphon back into the bucket and attach a hose and bottling wand to that?

Yes, those gaskets can wear out. I've never used a swing-top bottle, but I know that they need replacing every so often.

How long did you let it sit and condition before you opened it? 64F is a bit low, but I've had beers carb up at that temp just fine. It just takes an extra week or 2.

 

[Mustard]

The taste of the beer isn't terrible, Its even OK. But maybe more of a stale taste i'm not sure. I know something isn't right but not sure where I went wrong. I keep it in the back of my basement with a blanket over to make sure no light gets in ( green bottles and all)

 

[Mustard]

5 oz seems like a lot, but that wouldn't explain why it's oxidized. Do you fill from the spigot using a hose and bottling wand, or do you stick the siphon back into the bucket and attach a hose and bottling wand to that?

Yes, those gaskets can wear out. I've never used a swing-top bottle, but I know that they need replacing every so often.

How long did you let it sit and condition before you opened it? 64F is a bit low, but I've had beers carb up at that temp just fine. It just takes an extra week or 2.

I stick the auto syphon into the bucket and attach the wand. I've heard the gaskets should be replaced at least every 5 brews. I did only let it sit for 2.5 weeks so maybe I'll leave it sit another couple weeks. First cracked one on the 29th of May. So mid June should be good? Will be around 4 weeks in the bottle.

 

[rodwha]

I think I've had similar results, and have certainly had my auto-siphon gurgle at the end. I've also, at times, noticed my bottling wand (attached to spigot) will get small bubbles.

I read that oxidation tastes like wet cardboard. I don't get that, but in he batches I've had issues it seems a similar taste. Maybe it's wet cardboard mixed with the flavor of the beer?

These beers will start off good but after several weeks develop this taste.

 

[EJay]

Whats the timing of all this? How long in fermentor? How long conditioning in bottles? At what temps?

 

[Mustard]

I think I've had similar results, and have certainly had my auto-siphon gurgle at the end. I've also, at times, noticed my bottling wand (attached to spigot) will get small bubbles.

I read that oxidation tastes like wet cardboard. I don't get that, but in he batches I've had issues it seems a similar taste. Maybe it's wet cardboard mixed with the flavor of the beer?

These beers will start off good but after several weeks develop this taste.

Did you fix the issue you had with the siphon? any tips?

 

[Mustard]

Whats the timing of all this? How long in fermentor? How long conditioning in bottles? At what temps?

Can't give exact times and temps until I get home. But 5 days in primary 14 days in secondary 64 degrees and 2.5 weeks in bottles same temp. I normally ferment a bit higher 65-68 but being cold season for the basement thats what its at. Summer time it gets aroudn 68 and with the woodstove in the late fall winter I can keep it around the same.

Edit: I think maybe while in primary might of been down closer to 62 degrees.

 

[Brew_G]

Drinking my 2nd batch of all grain. Doing a recipe I found on HBT Whitetail Amber Ale. 2nd attempt at this beer. 1st attempt I borrowed a corona mill and didnt' have the crush fine enough and did not have alot of conversion.
2nd Attempt everything seemed to go well but the beer tastes flat. There is carbination when you pop the top. You can see SOME bubbles when poured into a glass. Zero head. My PH was high in the mash (did not try to adjust PH, just let it be where it was) Primary fermentor in a bucket lid was on tight. I transfered to secondary when my auto syphon ran dry it put some air into the beer, Also I tilted the auto syphon upside down to get all beer into the secondary and it bubbled up a fair amount. Secondary was a 6.5 Gallon glass carboy. Airlock was on it tight as well. Would the bubbling from the auto syphon be enough to ruin the beer? What else could I be doing wrong? I have a batch of Black IPA ready to bottle this week, that I made sure the syphon hose wasn't in the bottle of the fermentor so it didnt' bubble. SO HOPEFULLY thats all it was?

Assuming you're doing less than 6-gallon batches, then this is almost certainly a problem. That much headspace in secondary can result in oxidation, especially considering the other issues you had.

 

[mcbar]

... 2nd Attempt everything seemed to go well but the beer tastes flat. There is carbination when you pop the top. You can see SOME bubbles when poured into a glass. Zero head.

OP is not describing oxidation. No mention of off flavours. Later in the thread, he says that the beer tastes OK. What is being described is beer that hasn't carbonated after 2.5 weeks in the bottle.

5 oz of priming sugar is definitely sufficient. Give it another few weeks and see if that solves the problem - I usually sample one bottle after 2 weeks, but don't expect the beer to be finished until 3.

Edit: He does mention that the beer maybe tastes stale - which could be oxidation, but could also be flat, green beer.

 

[Mustard]

Assuming you're doing less than 6-gallon batches, then this is almost certainly a problem. That much headspace in secondary can result in oxidation, especially considering the other issues you had.

I'm doing a 23L batch. Although it turned out to be more like 21L. Still playing around with mash/sparge amount and boil off.

 

[Mustard]

OP is not describing oxidation. No mention of off flavours. Later in the thread, he says that the beer tastes OK. What is being described is beer that hasn't carbonated after 2.5 weeks in the bottle.

5 oz of priming sugar is definitely sufficient. Give it another few weeks and see if that solves the problem - I usually sample one bottle after 2 weeks, but don't expect the beer to be finished until 3.

Edit: He does mention that the beer maybe tastes stale - which could be oxidation, but could also be flat, green beer.

Thanks for the input. I'm starting to wonder if that is all it is? It will be bottle conditioned for 4 weeks this friday. I will write back and let you guys know if its any better.

 

[justenoughforme]

look forward to hearing if it improves.

flat beer just kills it for me.

 

[rodwha]

Mustard: Like you I try to pull the end of the hose up before it's finished. It's a real juggling act trying to tilt the fermentor, hang on to the siphon, keep an eye on each end, and time it well. It would be most helpful with an extra set of hands. SWMBO quit on me a long time ago...

I've only somewhat recently been doing this.

I don't understand why my bottling wand might aerate though. It only happens every now and again, and only when the tip is depressed nearly all the way.

 

[justenoughforme]

rodwha,

the bottle wand aerating, is that noted by a rattling sound while it disperses into the bottle?

if so my next batch is in serious trouble.



btw, if your siphon has air in it it can also add a lot of D.O. , so pinch the siphone and make sure it's all liquid, no bubbles.

 

[balrog]

5 oz seems like a lot, but that wouldn't explain why it's oxidized. Do you fill from the spigot using a hose and bottling wand, or do you stick the siphon back into the bucket and attach a hose and bottling wand to that?

Yes, those gaskets can wear out. I've never used a swing-top bottle, but I know that they need replacing every so often.

How long did you let it sit and condition before you opened it? 64F is a bit low, but I've had beers carb up at that temp just fine. It just takes an extra week or 2.

+1 all 3 points. I suspect 64° first, you'll need more time at that low temp.

That much headspace in secondary can result in oxidation, especially considering the other issues you had.

This maybe, I don't regularly "secondary", but when I do, there is always a little yeasty action, brought on by the act of transferring from primary, and gives a little CO2. But if you're letting it sit many weeks in secondary where you have several inches of headspace, that would be sub-optimal but not necessarily automatically bad.

... a rattling sound while it disperses into the bottle?

I get that sound myself, just from the flow of beer going through the little springy plunger thingy on the end of the wand, submerged in the bottle, as it fills.

 

[justenoughforme]

thanks balrog, its a huge pain to hold it careful so that doesn't happen

 

[rodwha]

I've not heard a rattling noise with mine.

 

[Mustard]

Its suppose to be a little over 6 gallons but It boiled down more then expected. So I need the big carboy. My thinking is and please correct me if I'm wrong. The amout of CO2 after I transfer should be enough to start the airlock again. Which would push out all air. So I shouldn't be getting oxidization from the carboy?

 

[justenoughforme]

the CO2 gas distrubtuion in the carboy is never 100%, it's not like the co2 pushes out 100% of the gas, just higher and higher percentages as it bubbles out.

so oxidation with a lot of head space is a viable concern ... (maybe based on how vigorous fermentation was)

 

[rodwha]

Something I forgot to mention is that I cannot seem to get a good full siphon started with just one pump. It takes two or three. I'm guessing having what seems like air in the line will only oxidate it, but pumping a few times seems to as well, though for a short period.

 

[slym2none]

I need to start an "Out Of Context" quotes thread elsewhere...

 

[Mustard]

Ok it looks like maybe I was just over eager its so much better. Still not much for a head I'm thinking from the high mash ph but it is at least carbonated! Thanks guys