Oxidation Risk During Sparging?

[RPh_Guy]

They have a valid reason for what they are doing

Namely:

• Fresh grain flavors (only obtainable through low oxygen brewing)
• Unique flavors from biological acidification (only obtainable through low oxygen brewing)
• Longer flavor stability, including a more clean taste and more prominent hop flavor, if applicable.

I have seen numerous presentations on HSA and just about everyone agrees that hot side aeration doesn't really effect the wort

... Well-accepted and well-studied brewing science as well as empirical results from a lot of brewers ranging from state-of-the-art macro breweries to us lowly home brewers clearly show that in fact oxygen does have a negative effect.

Besides, you are going to boil the wort anyway which will drive off any disolved O2.

Oxidation damage occurs during the mash.

However, most commercial breweries use a spray ball mounted a couple feet above the grain bed to sparge with and it works fine for them. The brewery I worked at for 6 years did that will no ill effects on the finished beer. As has been mentioned, the time you really need to worry about O2 is post fermentation and during packaging.

Very few small-scale US breweries produce low-oxygen beer. That's completely fine if that's the bar you set for yourself. However, there's no reason to twist the facts to suit that practice.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I personally asked Mitch Steele about HSA in a recent IPA webinar with him. Not only did he pick have me ask the question personally, he chose my question as the best and I walked away with 110lbs of hops.


This is just one of literal hundreds if not 1000's of people/prefessionals who don't discount HSA.

Here are also 3 blog articles discussing this..

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-brewing-and-hops/
http://www.********************/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-brewing-malt-antioxidants/
http://www.********************/brewing-methods/flavour-stability-in-home-brewing/
This last on being guest written on my blog from this Gentleman:
https://ejdfoodsci.eu/phd-students/tuur-mertens/I think his credentials will speak for themselves.

"
Education background:
University Degree: Master Of Science In Bioscience Engineering Technology (Food Industry) – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2015-2016 – GPA: Cum Laude
University Degree: Bachelor Of Science In Bioscience Engineering Technology (Food Industry) – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2012-2015 – GPA: Cum Fructu
Academic Education: Bachelor Of Science In Bioscience Engineering – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2009-2012
Secondary Degree: Biotechnical Sciences – Scheppersinstitute Wetteren (Belgium) – 2003-2009 – GPA: Magna Cum Laude
Field of study for your BSc:
Bachelor of Science in Bioscience Engineering Technology
University of your BSc: Ghent University, Belgium

University 1 (employer):
Technische Universität Berlin, Germany "

 

[Nubiwan]

If you're going to go to the effort of boiling your mash water, you might as well dose your mash with NaMETA (cheap and easy) and keep splashing to an absolute minimum to try to keep the benefits of the O2 free mash. IMO though, you'd be better off tightening up cold side processes first.

Yes, it appears I may be "pissing into the wind", as they eloquently put it, by just preboiling, as I am limited to bottles, so cannot spund. Not sure if any steps I can take beyond reducing any agitation from the kettle into my fermentor. Bottling is simply another oxygen infusion for me.

Interesting to read that LODO beers don't travel very well.

 

[Nubiwan]

If you think thats a "good honest investigation"...... Yikes.

Why so? It's 2 independent reviews of LODO versus regular oxygenated beer, that rather imply - to me at least - that there is much merit in LODO process. That the tester felt his LODO process might have been flawed in the first experiment I listed, since the results in the second were so emphatic, and that his other anecdotal experience with LODO process has also been positive.

So why, is that not good? You suggesting LODO threads on HBT offer more mature, independent opinion? It's the reason I went to Brulosophy into the first instance.

 

[Nubiwan]

I personally asked Mitch Steele about HSA in a recent IPA webinar with him. Not only did he pick have me ask the question personally, he chose my question as the best and I walked away with 110lbs of hops.


This is just one of literal hundreds if not 1000's of people/prefessionals who don't discount HSA.

Here are also 3 blog articles discussing this..

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-brewing-and-hops/
http://www.********************/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-brewing-malt-antioxidants/
http://www.********************/brewing-methods/flavour-stability-in-home-brewing/
This last on being guest written on my blog from this Gentleman:
https://ejdfoodsci.eu/phd-students/tuur-mertens/I think his credentials will speak for themselves.

"
Education background:
University Degree: Master Of Science In Bioscience Engineering Technology (Food Industry) – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2015-2016 – GPA: Cum Laude
University Degree: Bachelor Of Science In Bioscience Engineering Technology (Food Industry) – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2012-2015 – GPA: Cum Fructu
Academic Education: Bachelor Of Science In Bioscience Engineering – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2009-2012
Secondary Degree: Biotechnical Sciences – Scheppersinstitute Wetteren (Belgium) – 2003-2009 – GPA: Magna Cum Laude
Field of study for your BSc:
Bachelor of Science in Bioscience Engineering Technology
University of your BSc: Ghent University, Belgium

University 1 (employer):
Technische Universität Berlin, Germany "

Dont mean to derail the topic, but Interesting quote about the crystal in IPA's. What does he substitute crystal with in his IPA, I wonder? Anyone care to suggest? PM me to keep it off topic if you like.

 

[effeffe]

I want to add to this thread. I do not want to dis any of the LODO guys. They have a valid reason for what they are doing and I respect that.

However, most commercial breweries use a spray ball mounted a couple feet above the grain bed to sparge with and it works fine for them. The brewery I worked at for 6 years did that will no ill effects on the finished beer. As has been mentioned, the time you really need to worry about O2 is post fermentation and during packaging.

I sparge here at home with a high tempertaure hose that lies on top of the mash bed and gravity feed sparge liquor into the mash tun that way (got the idea from a SABCO BrewMagic user. My efficiency numbers are good and I don't have any off flavors from hot side aeration (I have seen numerous presentations on HSA and just about everyone agrees that hot side aeration doesn't really effect the wort). Besides, you are going to boil the wort anyway which will drive off any disolved O2.

Just my $0.02 worth

It's not much about introducing off-flavors but rather losing existing ones, and that's not something I can detect, unless I try the same recipe avoiding hot-side oxidation.

Detecting the absence of a flavor is impossible if one does not have that specific flavor in mind to begin with, and the way that flavor can be expressed though a specific process.

(besides, I wouldn't use "most commercial breweries" as a good reference if we're talking about craft breweries, but that's just me, and it probably depends on the geographical area anyway)

 

[RPh_Guy]

I am limited to bottles, so cannot spund.

FYI you can spund in bottles, and spunding is not an absolute requirement, even for bottling, just a big help.

Not sure if any steps I can take beyond reducing any agitation from the kettle into my fermentor.

Check out the low oxygen brewing website. The basic steps when mashing are to deoxygenate strike water, add water to grain from below (underlet), use active oxygen scavengers (sulfites + BrewTan B ± ascorbic acid), and use a mash cap.
The cold-side process also needs to be tight, of course.

Why so? It's 2 independent reviews of LODO versus regular oxygenated beer, that rather imply - to me at least - that there is much merit in LODO process. That the tester felt his LODO process might have been flawed in the first experiment I listed, since the results in the second were so emphatic, and that his other anecdotal experience with LODO process has also been positive.

So why, is that not good? You suggesting LODO threads on HBT offer more mature, independent opinion? It's the reason I went to Brulosophy into the first instance.

Brulosophy obviously did not execute the process correctly.

Quote from their write-up:
"I perceived a rather strong sulfur component in the LODO beer"

Beer should NOT have a strong sulfurous note and this fact completely invalidates their results. It's "experiments" like these that show how bad Brulosophy is at science.

Cheers

 

[Gnomebrewer]

"I perceived a rather strong sulfur component in the LODO beer"

Beer should NOT have a strong sulfurous note and this fact completely invalidates their results. It's "experiments" like these that show how bad Brulosophy is at science.

Cheers

Was that from back in the early LoDo days, when the recommended NaMeta dose was too high? I brewed my first LoDo beer (a pils) using that original recommended dose, and it ended up being a dumper (tasted like burnt match). I dropped the dose to about a third (IIRC) of what was recommended at the time and the following beers were WAY better. No sulphur.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Was that from back in the early LoDo days, when the recommended NaMeta dose was too high? I brewed my first LoDo beer (a pils) using that original recommended dose, and it ended up being a dumper (tasted like burnt match). I dropped the dose to about a third (IIRC) of what was recommended at the time and the following beers were WAY better. No sulphur.

Improper oxygenation of the beer is what causes this.

You must first oxygenate to expend all the sulfites, then you start at 0 and have to re-oxygenate the wort as normal. The dosage could be 10000ppm, you just have to oxygenate to expel all the sulfites and then oxygenate the wort as normal.

If you dropped to 1/3 and things were fine, that means you were only oxygenating a 1/3 of the way you should have been.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Improper oxygenation of the beer is what causes this.

It's arguing semantics, but no, improper oxygenation didn't cause it. Too much sulfite caused it, more oxygen may have fixed it.

 

[Die_Beerery]

It's arguing semantics, but no, improper oxygenation didn't cause it. Too much sulfite caused it, more oxygen may have fixed it.

Not really. As I said there is no "too much sulfite" its not enough oxygen.

Hell, I currently use 50ppm (more than your dose without issue) AND purge grist/vessels/piping sub 10ppb and have zero issues. If using your thought process, I would have nothing but issues.

You can get overly sulfury beer dumpable without sulfites. Which points to oxygen/fermentation issues. Case in point.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Not really. As I said there is no "too much sulfite" its not enough oxygen.

Are you saying I would still have had issues with that beer if I didn't have sulfites in it? I think not. Therefore, sulfites caused the issue. Oxygen (more than normal - i.e. extra on top of a proper dose) may have fixed it. It's like saying
'it wasn't eating pizza, beer and ice-cream everyday that made me overweight, it was not enough exercise. I can eat as much bad food as I want as long as I do enough exercise to counter it'.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Are you saying I would still have had issues with that beer if I didn't have sulfites in it? I think not. Therefore, sulfites caused the issue. Oxygen (more than normal - i.e. extra on top of a proper dose) may have fixed it. It's like saying
'it wasn't eating pizza, beer and ice-cream everyday that made me overweight, it was not enough exercise. I can eat as much bad food as I want as long as I do enough exercise to counter it'.

I'm not 100% sure why you are not quoting my whole posts explaining, and only the ones that fit your narrative. However, you saying it wouldn't is pure speculation.

I will state again. "You can get overly sulfury beer, dumpable without sulfites. Which points to oxygen/fermentation issues. Case in point."

To rule out improper oxygenation, what did your DO meter say when you oxygenated?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I'm not 100% sure why you are not quoting my whole posts explaining, and only the ones that fit your narrative.

It's not to fit a narrative. I always only quote the portion of the post that is relevant to set the context for my reply.

I will state again. "You can get overly sulfury beer, dumpable without sulfites. Which points to oxygen/fermentation issues. Case in point."

Except in over 500 batches of beer the only other one that I've had get the same sulfury issue was a sour beer fruited with passionfruit. Apparently (I found out after brewing it) that can be an issue with passionfruit. That was not anywhere near as bad as the pils - it was still quite a nice beer. So I'm certain that sulfites were the issue.