Other Half Daydream (oat cream IPAs) - all grain clone attempts

[TravelingLight]

My brewclub dropped a Clone Wars in my lap (Oskar Blues Ten Fidy) for mid March, so I had to bump that to top of the list. Looking at weekend after the SB for this brew now. Will share pics and stickiness of mash (looking at 25% malted and flaked each).

Anyone ever toast flaked oats in the oven? Good or bad idea for an IPA, versus say an oatmeal stout?

Awesome, looking forward to it!

I toast roughly half the oats for a maple-bacon-coffee-breakfast stout I do at least once a year. I love it in dark beers. Not sure I'd enjoy it in an IPA...

 

[TravelingLight]

i’ve just done 50% oats - all malted - and I upped the lactose. The mouthfeel is by far the best I’ve had. And that’s despite it being the lowest ABV NEIPA I’ve done - 4.5%. Defo better than when I’ve had part flaked and part malted, but increased lactose could be the reason.

i’ve still not seen anything scientific to support this popular notion that flaked will have any advantage over malted when it comes to mouthfeel. So, particularly after this beer, I’m struggling to make a case (other than cost) for not going all malted. It reduces oxidation risk too.

Are you also putting wheat in the grist, or just base and malted oats? How much lactose are you using?

 

[Dryyourbeers]

Are you also putting wheat in the grist, or just base and malted oats? How much lactose are you using?

4% lactose, so 270g in 6.7kg grain bill (sorry for the metric!)

I don’t use wheat normally but have in the past. I’ve heard Other Half saying they use it a lot less than oats and I really don’t think it’s necessary, so I keep it simple. Plus, I’m not a big fan of the flavour wheat brings (although I don’t pick that up until the percentage is getting pretty big)

 

[Dgallo]

i’ve still not seen anything scientific to support this popular notion that flaked will have any advantage over malted when it comes to mouthfeel. So, particularly after this beer, I’m struggling to make a case (other than cost) for not going all malted. It reduces oxidation risk too.

Can you please explain how malted oats reduces oxidation verse flaked oats and/or provide a resource

 

[Dryyourbeers]

Can you please explain how malted oats reduces oxidation verse flaked oats and/or provide a resource

It’s covered in The New IPA by Scott Janish. I’ve included some quotes pasted from the ebook below.

“Oxygen needs to be converted to a radical activated form before it can react with other species in beer. This activation can be caused by trace metals in beer, like iron, copper, or manganese.”

Unlike iron and copper, which reduce considerably by the time fermentation is complete, maganese sticks around making it a bigger cause of concern.

Now why are malted oats safer than flaked oats?

“Unmalted grains have more manganese than malted grains.”

There’s a whole chapter on the nuances of oxidation and much focus on the role of these trace metals. There are multiple studies cited that support the notion that swapping any malted grain (not just oats) for it’s unmelted equivalent will lead to great oxidation if the beer is exposed to oxygen. Many of them specifically look at the role of flaked oats and the maganese levels in flaked oats seem to be amongst the worst of any type of grain (malted or otherwise).

“Interestingly, the grains that showed the highest manganese potential were flaked oats, which had more than three times the amount compared to a pale 2-row variety. Another malt that had slightly greater-than-average manganese content was malted wheat with 18 ppm.”


I can’t comment on the validity of any of this, but until I see some evidence of a benefit of using flaked oats over malted oats, I think I’d rather spend more and stick to malted.

 

[Dgallo]

It’s covered in The New IPA by Scott Janish. I’ve included some quotes pasted from the ebook below.

“Oxygen needs to be converted to a radical activated form before it can react with other species in beer. This activation can be caused by trace metals in beer, like iron, copper, or manganese.”

Unlike iron and copper, which reduce considerably by the time fermentation is complete, maganese sticks around making it a bigger cause of concern.

Now why are malted oats safer than flaked oats?

“Unmalted grains have more manganese than malted grains.”

There’s a whole chapter on the nuances of oxidation and much focus on the role of these trace metals. There are multiple studies cited that support the notion that swapping any malted grain (not just oats) for it’s unmelted equivalent will lead to great oxidation if the beer is exposed to oxygen. Many of them specifically look at the role of flaked oats and the maganese levels in flaked oats seem to be amongst the worst of any type of grain (malted or otherwise).

“Interestingly, the grains that showed the highest manganese potential were flaked oats, which had more than three times the amount compared to a pale 2-row variety. Another malt that had slightly greater-than-average manganese content was malted wheat with 18 ppm.”


I can’t comment on the validity of any of this, but until I see some evidence of a benefit of usin oats over malted oats, I think I’d rather spend more and stick to malted.

Oh right, I remember reading that elevated manganese levels might increase the risk of oxidation.

With the amount of flaked oats oh uses in their beers and now that treehouse is beginning to brew with large amounts of it, I can’t imagine it is that much cause for concern, otherwise you’d know they’d avoid it

 

[BeerFst]

Oh right, I remember reading that elevated manganese levels might increase the risk of oxidation.

With the amount of flaked oats oh uses in their beers and now that treehouse is beginning to brew with large amounts of it, I can’t imagine it is that much cause for concern, otherwise you’d know they’d avoid it

I’m fairly certain that OH uses a centrifuge and I’ve been wondering if that’s why they have such great stability. I agree their beers rarely seem to oxidize like others do. Granted it was over a year ago but I had some Citra+galaxy cans that held up for like 5 months and aroma degraded slightly but nothing like I’ve had in other beers sitting that long

 

[TravelingLight]

Oh right, I remember reading that elevated manganese levels might increase the risk of oxidation.

With the amount of flaked oats oh uses in their beers and now that treehouse is beginning to brew with large amounts of it, I can’t imagine it is that much cause for concern, otherwise you’d know they’d avoid it

Most people are thinking OH is using malted oats instead of (or a much larger portion than) flaked oats.

 

[Dgallo]

Most people are thinking OH is using malted oats instead of (or a much larger portion than) flaked oats.

In oat creams yes i would think most is malted but there are many beers they have made where they stated Flaked oats on their boards.

 

[Dryyourbeers]

In oat creams yes i would think most is malted but there are many beers they have made where they stated Flaked oats on their boards.

I never knew they quoted specifically flaked oats. And I guess it still doesn’t mean it isn’t a largely malted.

i also suspect it won’t apply to someone like Other Half as much as does to us home brewers. I’d guess their process will be so tight they will get such a low level of dissolved oxygen in the first place.

 

[Dryyourbeers]

I’m fairly certain that OH uses a centrifuge and I’ve been wondering if that’s why they have such great stability. I agree their beers rarely seem to oxidize like others do. Granted it was over a year ago but I had some Citra+galaxy cans that held up for like 5 months and aroma degraded slightly but nothing like I’ve had in other beers sitting that long

They say in an interview I’ve heard exactly that. That the centrifuge is great for stability because it drops out all the yeast matter and that stops it making it to cans. Because if it was in the cans it would drop out eventually and pull hop particles with it.

 

[sicktght311]

I never knew they quoted specifically flaked oats. And I guess it still doesn’t mean it isn’t a largely malted.

i also suspect it won’t apply to someone like Other Half as much as does to us home brewers. I’d guess their process will be so tight they will get such a low level of dissolved oxygen in the first place.

Theres a local brewery by me that is very popular with Hazy NEIPAs and Milkshake IPAs and they test their cans for DO and it always comes up barely detectable. This is a local brewery that uses a mobile canning company. So i have to imagine Other Half who is well known in the IPA game, is at their level if not exceeding. They have their canning procedure dialed down to as close to absolutely zero DO as possible i'm sure

 

[TravelingLight]

In oat creams yes i would think most is malted but there are many beers they have made where they stated Flaked oats on their boards.

Gotcha. I've also never seen them specify flaked oats. I haven't been to OH since March 2019, but I just pulled up my picture of the taplist and it mentions oats plenty, but never specifies flaked oats. You've definitely been there more than I have though I'm sure, so it could have just been the day I was there.

 

[Dgallo]

Gotcha. I've also never seen them specify flaked oats. I haven't been to OH since March 2019, but I just pulled up my picture of the taplist and it mentions oats plenty, but never specifies flaked oats. You've definitely been there more than I have though I'm sure, so it could have just been the day I was there.

Don’t get me wrong, I know most of their oat usage is now malted oats as they started pushing the % so high that sparging would have been impossible without the husks on the malted oats but prior to 2018 almost all their grain bills would be flaked. They do specifically tell you what oats they are using though

 

[TravelingLight]

Don’t get me wrong, I know most of their oat usage is now malted oats as they started pushing the % so high that sparging would have been impossible without the husks on the malted oats but prior to 2018 almost all their grain bills would be flaked. They do specifically tell you what oats they are using though View attachment 664400View attachment 664401View attachment 664402

Man, damn you posting those cans just making me wish I had some!! I brought back a case of their All Citra Everything last March that was absolutely phenomenal.

 

[beervoid]

Theres a local brewery by me that is very popular with Hazy NEIPAs and Milkshake IPAs and they test their cans for DO and it always comes up barely detectable. This is a local brewery that uses a mobile canning company. So i have to imagine Other Half who is well known in the IPA game, is at their level if not exceeding. They have their canning procedure dialed down to as close to absolutely zero DO as possible i'm sure

Their brewsheet stated 38 of DO pre packaging which is actually quiet high but still really good in comparison to industry standard which is below 150 if I remember correct. Canning will add another 20 to that.
If you do a really good job you can get under 20ppb tpo post packaging in the can but this seems more an exception then the norm as far as I know.
There is some science paper out there that has showed that storage temps have more of an impact on flavor/aroma then DO does.

 

[TBryerton]

I’m fairly certain that OH uses a centrifuge and I’ve been wondering if that’s why they have such great stability. I agree their beers rarely seem to oxidize like others do. Granted it was over a year ago but I had some Citra+galaxy cans that held up for like 5 months and aroma degraded slightly but nothing like I’ve had in other beers sitting that long

That’s correct, centrifuge in both locations. And when asked they responded like it was a necessity - “of course we do”.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Tomorrow I’ll be brewing the following:

8.5 pounds 2-row
8.5 pounds malted oats
6 ounces acidulated

8 ounces Citra
8 ounces Nelson
1 pound lactose

I’ll come back with an update once the beer is ready.

 

[HopsAreGood]

They say in an interview I’ve heard exactly that. That the centrifuge is great for stability because it drops out all the yeast matter and that stops it making it to cans. Because if it was in the cans it would drop out eventually and pull hop particles with it.

This is why people roll their cans/flip them upside down before opening them. If the hop particles and yeast both make into the cans they just need to be agitated a bit before being poured into a glass. Many of my hardcore beer trader/collector friends will never open a can without gently rolling it and turning it upside down a few times.

 

[BeerFst]

This is why people roll their cans/flip them upside down before opening them. If the hop particles and yeast both make into the cans they just need to be agitated a bit before being poured into a glass. Many of my hardcore beer trader/collector friends will never open a can without gently rolling it and turning it upside down a few times.

It's become such a regular habit for me, I do it with almost all cans without even thinking. Also towards the end of the can ill give it a slight swirl to pickup anything missed. Eventhen, rinsing out the cans the next morning there is plenty of beautiful smelling hop sludge

 

[HopsAreGood]

It's become such a regular habit for me, I do it with almost all cans without even thinking. Also towards the end of the can ill give it a slight swirl to pickup anything missed. Eventhen, rinsing out the cans the next morning there is plenty of beautiful smelling hop sludge

I do the same thing. Once you start doing it it just becomes second nature. I want to get every last bit of the goodness that I can.

 

[brew703]

Does someone have a link to the malted oats being used? Is this a flaked version or whole?

 

[BeerFst]

Does someone have a link to the malted oats being used? Is this a flaked version or whole?

https://www.homebrewing.org/Fawcett-Oat-Malt-1-lb_p_4021.html

It comes like any other malted grain, whole, but of course you can get it pre-milled. It is not flaked, that refers to a different process

 

[TravelingLight]

Alright, so I'm designing one to brew this weekend with a heavy portion of malted oats. However, I am also planning to work in a small amount (5ish%) raw wheat. I'm seeing more and more people use raw wheat, I have yet to use it, so wanted to give it a shot. My question is, would you use raw and malted wheat? I always use some malted wheat in my NEIPAs. Wondering if I still should or if it's pointless or anything like that to use it in addition to raw wheat?

Currently I'm looking at something like this:

50% Pils
38% Malted Oats (Fawcett)
6% Raw Wheat
6% Malted Wheat
(Considering adding a 1-1.5 pounds flaked oats to push my total oats closer to 50%. At the same time, I'd love to get away from flaked oats all together, it just seems so weird to not put any flaked oats in a NEIPA after using them religiously for years!)

 

[isomerization]

Alright, so I'm designing one to brew this weekend with a heavy portion of malted oats. However, I am also planning to work in a small amount (5ish%) raw wheat. I'm seeing more and more people use raw wheat, I have yet to use it, so wanted to give it a shot. My question is, would you use raw and malted wheat? I always use some malted wheat in my NEIPAs. Wondering if I still should or if it's pointless or anything like that to use it in addition to raw wheat?

Currently I'm looking at something like this:

50% Pils
38% Malted Oats (Fawcett)
6% Raw Wheat
6% Malted Wheat
(Considering adding a 1-1.5 pounds flaked oats to push my total oats closer to 50%. At the same time, I'd love to get away from flaked oats all together, it just seems so weird to not put any flaked oats in a NEIPA after using them religiously for years!)

My two cents, I’m doing my 50% oat beer with no wheat, to try and amplify the oat flavor profile as much as possible (whatever it may be).

 

[TravelingLight]

My two cents, I’m doing my 50% oat beer with no wheat, to try and amplify the oat flavor profile as much as possible (whatever it may be).

Thanks, Iso. I think I may stick with what I've got now and adjust from there. I'll report back in this thread. Brewing this weekend, fermenting with voss hot, so it'll be done quick.

 

[Dgallo]

Alright, so I'm designing one to brew this weekend with a heavy portion of malted oats. However, I am also planning to work in a small amount (5ish%) raw wheat. I'm seeing more and more people use raw wheat, I have yet to use it, so wanted to give it a shot. My question is, would you use raw and malted wheat? I always use some malted wheat in my NEIPAs. Wondering if I still should or if it's pointless or anything like that to use it in addition to raw wheat?

Currently I'm looking at something like this:

50% Pils
38% Malted Oats (Fawcett)
6% Raw Wheat
6% Malted Wheat
(Considering adding a 1-1.5 pounds flaked oats to push my total oats closer to 50%. At the same time, I'd love to get away from flaked oats all together, it just seems so weird to not put any flaked oats in a NEIPA after using them religiously for years!)

Raw wheat is unmalted and actual produces less body and a more crisp beer. For this style I’d stay away from it.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Tomorrow I’ll be brewing the following:

8.5 pounds 2-row
8.5 pounds malted oats
6 ounces acidulated

8 ounces Citra
8 ounces Nelson
1 pound lactose

I’ll come back with an update once the beer is ready.

Update: I fermented this with kveik hothead at 90 and it was completely finished in 72 hours. 1.076 - 1.019. Tasted the sample while checking the gravity and it is incredibly full bodied, soft, and luscious. I’m very excited to see how it is after dry hopping and then carbing.

 

[Dgallo]

Update: I fermented this with kveik hothead at 90 and it was completely finished in 72 hours. 1.076 - 1.019. Tasted the sample while checking the gravity and it is incredibly thick, soft, and luscious. I’m very excited to see how it is after dry hopping and then carbing.

What was the mash temp? Im surprised hothead finished with only around 70% attenuation. Typically get 80% easy

 

[HopsAreGood]

What was the mash temp? Im surprised hothead finished with only around 70% attenuation. Typically get 80% easy

152...but there is a pound of lactose so I look at it more like 1.068 - 1.011 which would be 83%. I could be doing this calculation wrong, but because it’s unfermentable I don’t really factor it into the attenuation percentage. Happy to be corrected though.

 

[Dgallo]

152...but there is a pound of lactose so I look at it more like 1.068 - 1.011 which would be 83%. I could be doing this calculation wrong, but because it’s unfermentable I don’t really factor it into the attenuation percentage. Happy to be corrected though.

No, you’re correct, I completely overlooked the lactose because I only glanced at the grains

 

[HopsAreGood]

Update: Here’s a photo of the finished beer. This beer went grain to glass in only 7 days so it will definitely mature as it conditions. I will say that it is incredibly soft and full bodied without being slick or oily, which is what I have experienced with high percentages of flaked oats. So I’d say this experiment was definitely a success. 50% malted oats and a pound of lactose all the way.

 

[beervoid]

View attachment 665912Update: Here’s a photo of the finished beer. This beer went grain to glass in only 7 days so it will definitely mature as it conditions. I will say that it is incredibly soft and full bodied without being slick or oily, which is what I have experienced with high percentages of flaked oats. So I’d say this experiment was definitely a success. 50% malted oats and a pound of lactose all the way.

Did you need any rice hulls?

 

[HopsAreGood]

Did you need any rice hulls?

I do brew in a bag and didn’t use any. I ask the people at my lhbs to crush everything extra fine, but I’m sure you could use them if you want.

 

[BeerFst]

Did you need any rice hulls?

the malted oats have a very hard husk, and basically act as rice hulls. I think i read that in the UK they use Oat hulls in place of Rice hulls.

I just did a 50% oats beer myself on Saturday, though split between malted (31%), flaked (15%) and GNO (4%) and it was a very quick and easy lauter.

The malted oats in general are very "hard" and skinny, so you need to drop down the gap on your mill or double mill to accommodate. I had mine set to .026". Even after that small gap, the hull is still very much in tact, but missing all its interior bits. Hit all my gravities spot on and at 75% efficiency.

 

[TravelingLight]

the malted oats have a very hard husk, and basically act as rice hulls. I think i read that in the UK they use Oat hulls in place of Rice hulls.

I just did a 50% oats beer myself on Saturday, though split between malted (31%), flaked (15%) and GNO (4%) and it was a very quick and easy lauter.

The malted oats in general are very "hard" and skinny, so you need to drop down the gap on your mill or double mill to accommodate. I had mine set to .026". Even after that small gap, the hull is still very much in tact, but missing all its interior bits. Hit all my gravities spot on and at 75% efficiency.

I'm thinking this is what happened on the beer I brewed Saturday. Grist:

49% Pilsner
42% Malted Oats
6% White Wheat
3% Raw Wheat

I double milled the raw wheat (More Beer milled it, then I ran it through my mill again). Missed my OG 7 points low. As I milled the malted oats I was thinking maybe I should mill those twice? But I didn't. My mill is set to .035, IIRC. I didn't have trouble with malted oats before today, but this is the first time I've used such a high percentage.

 

[BeerFst]

I'm thinking this is what happened on the beer I brewed Saturday. Grist:

I double milled the raw wheat (More Beer milled it, then I ran it through my mill again). Missed my OG 7 points low. As I milled the malted oats I was thinking maybe I should mill those twice? But I didn't. My mill is set to .035, IIRC. I didn't have trouble with malted oats before today, but this is the first time I've used such a high percentage.

I MIAB so I like to keep it around .028, but I'm not religious about it. funny thing happened saturday, i had filled the grain hopper and then started my drill, but it sounded like full grains smacking the bottom of my bucket. made me double take and say wtf, i made it so narrow. turns out drill was still in reverse from whatever i had done before....

 

[flintoid]

I've been trying to figure out why my efficiency drops off when my malted oat content rises in the grain bill, and I think you guys just nailed it. I'm stuck using the mill at my local HBS, so I'll give it a shot of double milling just the malted oats before mixing in everything else.

 

[Dryyourbeers]

Did you need any rice hulls?

i’ve had no issue using 50% naked malted oats and that’s with Grainfather too. Just doesn’t seem to cause the same issues that flaked oats do.

 

[isomerization]

So I brewed my take (described above) this past weekend as well. Do to an unforeseen inventory error, I had less malted oats than expected and had to up the Flaked to keep it at 50% oats. Ended up with 32% flaked, 18% malted.

I do BIAB and after a LOT of squeezing, hit my pre-boil volume. Efficiency wasn’t affected, but combined with an unexpected boil over (triggering the smoke alarm) and the wiring on my IC pump unexpectedly dying, this wasn’t my favorite brew night. I also ended up with a lot more trub than normal (combination issue from extra squeezing and high level of flaked oats?), so this beer better taste damn good lol.