Options to avoid a dry hop - increase whirlpool/flameout hops?

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RyPA

RyPA

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I will be pressure fermenting an IPA in a keg in a week or two and my plan is to ferment and serve out of the same keg -- the keg will be sealed upon pitching, never opened until it's serving days are spent.

I considered the magnet drop method for dry-hopping, but I am not sure that I want the hops sitting in the serving keg for 2-3 months (if it lasts that long).

Would adding the hops that I planned for dry hopping to the whirlpool be worthwhile? Or will the hops sitting in the keg for the life of it be ok?

The recipe calls for 3oz of citra at flameout and 3oz of citra for dry hops. Would 6oz at flameout work?

Thanks
 
RyPA said:
Would adding the hops that I planned for dry hopping to the whirlpool be worthwhile? Or will the hops sitting in the keg for the life of it be ok?
Click to expand...
You definitely don't want the hops to be sitting in the keg for the life of the batch.
You would likely get off flavors after 10 days or so.
I dry hopped once in a secondary for 2 weeks and there was an obvious vegetative/grassy taste.

If you want to try hop addition to whirlpool, wait until the temp has dropped to 170f or less.
But you will still lose aroma to the fermentation stage.
 
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You could also serve through a hop rocket (randalizer).
You need whole hops for that but it boosts aroma and flavor as it goes into the glass.
That's one way to avoid the dry-hop hassle. But it adds the maintenance of the hop rocket.
 
I guess I'll provide an alternative view. In my experience, no method of hopping in the kettle, or even an hopback, is a substitute for dry hopping. If all the hops are added in the kettle then the fermentation starts with all of the hop yumminess that would ever be in there. The off gassing from fermentation will strip volatiles while yeast can biotransform some of the hop compounds. The latter is not a problem, but does lead to quite different hop qualities.

As for sitting on hops, for many people, including me, this has not proven to be a problem. Lots of people keg hop where the hops stay in for the life of the keg, and others even serve direct from keg fermenters (i.e. from primary). My personal experience is that the beer can be kept for months this way and this seems to be corroborated by many others. The caveat here is that the beer is stored cold while on the hops.
 
RyPA said:
I will be pressure fermenting an IPA in a keg in a week or two and my plan is to ferment and serve out of the same keg -- the keg will be sealed upon pitching, never opened until it's serving days are spent.

I considered the magnet drop method for dry-hopping, but I am not sure that I want the hops sitting in the serving keg for 2-3 months (if it lasts that long).

Would adding the hops that I planned for dry hopping to the whirlpool be worthwhile? Or will the hops sitting in the keg for the life of it be ok?

The recipe calls for 3oz of citra at flameout and 3oz of citra for dry hops. Would 6oz at flameout work?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Why would you want to pressure ferment?

Why would you want to serve in the same keg you fermented in?

No amount of hops added hotside can replace/replicate dry hopping.
 
couchsending said:
Why would you want to pressure ferment?

Why would you want to serve in the same keg you fermented in?

No amount of hops added hotside can replace/replicate dry hopping.
Click to expand...
Faster grain to glass
No chance of oxidation
Potentially better aroma
No transferring needed
Less cleaning

I've read many threads where once someone has tried it, they never looked back. Why not try it? If it sucks, it's a lesson learned.
 
I'm not sure that fermenting under pressure from the beginning of the fermentation will achieve your goal of going grain to glass in a shorter period of time. Yeast typically ferment a little slower under pressure; however, because ester production is suppressed, you can compensate by increasing the temperature of fermentation. To me it has always been a zero sum game (edit: for the homebrewer). Fermenting under pressure at the very end of the fermentation to capture the CO2 and carbonate the beer does save time though. I agree with everything else you wrote :)
 
Yeah, I was planning to use a blow off for the initial fermentation, once I see it slow down a bit I was going to set the spunding valve to 10-12psi
 
Does anyone have experience with dry hopping in the serving keg for the duration of it's 'service'? I expect this keg to last 4-6 weeks.

I'd drop them in with a magnet towards the end of fermentation.

Edit: I think I'm going to go for it -- dry hop towards the end of fermentation, and leave the hops in there until the end of the keg. I'll create a post for this brew if anyone is interested in the outcome.
 
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I’ll chime in with my experience as well. I have dry hopped in the keg many times and through the life of the beer have not gotten any grassy flavors. When I used the regular dip tube (now I use floating) I put the hops in a hop sock and tired it to the lid hanging about 1/3 off the way which prevented it from being in the beer too long. Once I got the floating dip tube I just put the hops in commando and still no off flavors even after 4 weeks. Recently I have started using hop tea in the keg with amazing results. David Heath has great video on the method. For me, if I’m dry hopping with hops or hop tea, I sanitize the keg, put the dry hops in with 1/4 tsp crushed campden, purge the keg and close transfer the beer on top. It works great and I’m always super happy with the results!
 
Also interested. Is it possible to use a magnet to pull the hops out of the wort? As in slide hop sack into wort, slide back out when you no longer want them in the wort. I’ve only brewed one beer so far so hold your tomatoes hahaha.
 
Thanks @Redhouse Brewing , I will need to look into hop teaing. I will be using a floating dip tube in the fermenting/serving keg.

@Sonofastu - I was thinking about this last night, and am going to try it... after reading up on the hop tea method (or is that what the below is?)

Using magnets - Lets call it "Hop teabagging", if it doesn't have a name yet
- Hold the hops towards the top of the keg (out of the beer) during fermentation
- Slide them down when I want to dry hop
- Slide them back up when I am done dry hopping
 
I think you're right, after re-reading his post " if I’m dry hopping with hops or hop tea "
 
Dr_Jeff said:
I have a few of the screen tubes for hopping in the keg and have never had any off flavors due to leaving it in for the duration of the keg.
Click to expand...
I should also add that I don't perceive any additional benefit in hop flavor or aroma after 4-5 days.
I've gone as long as 10 to see if I could eek out a bit more aroma to no avail.
It's probably my technique, or maybe my nose. Four to five days starting near the end of activity (~1 min. between bubbles), Whole hops or Pellets using a mesh bag. Six gallons into the fermenter, usually 2-3 oz. of hops.
So if I'm not getting any benefit, why leave them in any longer?
Usual brew is an IPA @ 6-8%.
 
@PCABrewing - To avoid exposure to oxygen when you'd go to pull the hops out, this is the only reason my dry hops are going in for the long haul
 
DBhomebrew said:
It's definitely not the same, but I find a healthy dose of first wort hops plus another at flameout/whirlpool gives me all the hop flavor and aroma I need. But no, it's not a substitute for dry hopping.
Click to expand...
I had pretty much quit dry hopping by last year in favor of large whirlpool hopping to compensate. I usually shot for 50~60% of the IBUs coming @ 170F for :20 mins. I'd do a FWH bittering charge that lasted for the full boil, as well as supporting charges @ :15 & :30 mins. It was "O.K.", but not the same

This year I'm incorporating a hop dropper to get back into D.H. Not an easy task when trying to minimize O2, but I think I may have a handle on the situation. I should know more when I get a few brew sessions with this method under my belt.
 
I'm hoping this tea bagging method works. I'm just not sure how well magnets will work going through a torpedo keg.

If this doesn't work, I'm going to end up switching to a fermonster, magnet dry hopping, with a closed transfer to a sanitized keg purged with CO2.
 
Now that I have a picobrew vacuum still, I've been debating to water distill the dry hops and just pour the water in when I pitch the yeast.
 
Another method I heard of with a FermZilla All Rounder, but could be applied to two kegs is this. Haven't tried it, but here's the concept.

Put your dry hops in a second vessel and seal it. Needs to be pressure capable (so a keg, or a FermZilla). Use the offgassing CO2 from fermentation to push into this sealed dry hop vessel, and spunding it so it holds pressure and pushes the oxygen out while you are fermenting in primary. Once fermentation is complete, closed transfer from primary into this purged, pressurized dry hop vessel that already has your dry hops sitting inside. Let it sit for however long you plan to dry hop, then do a closed transfer out to a purged serving keg.
 
On an IPA I typically dry hop by hanging a hop bag from the inside tab of Corny keg lid made for this purpose. Make sure to include a weight inside the bag, I use sanitized glass marbles.

Typically I’ll hook up the CO2 tank to the keg during this process so the general flow of CO2 is outward away from the beer. I also use ascorbic acid on IPA’s. I then purge the keg 15 cycles to purge CO2, and then set the lid o-ring at about 60 PSI for a few seconds.

If bottling I wait until the week of bottling before dry hopping so you are only opening the keg once. I bottle directly off they keg with CO2 set about at 1 PSI pressure. I have a 2’ beer line set up with a picnic tap with about 10” of racking cane attached for bottling onto carbonation tablets.

If the keg is going to be put on tap, I’ll pull the hop bag, again with CO2 flowing into the headspace of the tank diverting CO2 outward away from the beer. I also prefer naturally carbonating IPA kegs for further O2 uptake at this time. Purge the keg again with 15 cycles and set the o-ring.

Using this method, you can avoid oxidation and darkening of the IPA if done carefully. Just keep the CO2 flowing in the headspace of the keg during these procedures.

00BF5E7D-198D-4303-86B1-FD7785F25D48.jpeg
 
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While I appreciate all the little gadgets and ways to minimize o2 while dry hopping it seems like it's overwhelming at a point. I've brewed many heavy hopped beers . At home and at the brewery . It's really not that hard , in fact it's quite simple.

I typically leave beer in the fv for 3 weeks at home . On day 17/18 I dry hop. I've found that dry hopping right before kegging is what I like . The hops shine and pop .

I open the top of the fv while hooked up to co2. Only 2-3 psi. This pressure keeps o2 from filling up the head space. I set the hops in , close the port . Turn up the psi to 10 , purge a handful of times.

I've never had an issue with oxidation. You'd crap your pants if you seen us dry hop at the brewery. It's a small 3bbl brewery. We have a 3bbl unitank , (2) 1bbl SsBrewtech fermenters and (2) 1bbl SsBrewtech Brite tanks.

This is how I dry hop at the brewery. I add the dry hops to the Brite tanks then transfer the beer from the fv to the Brite tanks using co2. The Brite tanks fill from the bottom, the top is vented so air is pushed out . Tanks are purged after they're filled . Temps are dropped then 3 to 4 days later the beer is kegged . Never had an issue with oxidation.

Like I said , nothing wrong with all the gadgets and processes to combat o2 . It's all for the love of brewing , but just know + co2 pressure is a great tool .
 
I think it can be accomplished multiple ways with success, but it gets a little harder without a fancy fermenter. With my track record of all bad tasting IPA's (yes, all), I'm probably going overboard with anti-oxygen. Once I get the satisfaction of an enjoyable IPA, I will likely try other ways.

I was never really aware that oxidation was my issue, but I did notice my beers getting dark and worse over time but never realized the cause -- I always assumed this was just how homebrewed IPA's tasted. When I'd dry hop, I would remove the lid of my fermenter without any consideration for oxygen, taking my time to dry hop. Same on keg day, I'd pop the lid on the fermenter and siphon the beer into the keg. Between both processes, we are talking about 25-30+ minutes of oxygen exposure. Being on the forums more, I am learning a lot and looking forward to making better beer. Thinking back to my first AG batch in September, it tasted and looked excellent on keg day and I thought I accomplished a good beer, only for it to go down hill by the time it was carbonated.

PXL_20211016_180335624.jpg
 
You could also try the Dip-Hop method from the Japanese brewers. When your wort in the BK hits 170F, take about 1 to 1 1/2 qts of it, put it in the fermenter with a WP charge of hops, and let that sit while you do your normal boil. I am amazed at how much of the cat pee aroma from North American "C" hops is pumped out of the fermenter while they sit and make tea during the boil.

I do my normal boil, normal WP, and add a 2nd WP in my recipe for IBU calculation to account for the Dip Hop. I also dry hop my pale ales/ipas, but it adds a level of flavor that helps with really hoppy beers. One caveat: you will have a hard time harvesting yeast from this method, as the hops stay in the fermenter for the entire fermentation duration when you dump your cooled wort on top and pitch yeast.

Best wishes on your hoppy journey!

Reevesie
 
@JAReeves how does it come out this way?

I'm definitely going with the tea bag method on my next batch. I bought really strong magnets and tonight I vacuum sealed them in units small enough to fit into a muslin bag and I tested them on a corny keg. They are super strong and I do not see them having an issue holding up a wet bag of hops.

PXL_20220105_004453321.jpg
 
@RyPA I have used the magnet method you are looking to do with great success (though only during fermentation, i did keg to a separate vessel). It actually works well in two regards 1) as you mentioned you can drag the hops back out of the beer so that it doesn't stay in too long (or in my case I lift back out to get the hop bag out of the way of the dip tube when siphoning out). 2) the magnets help make sure you can get the hop bag completely submerged, otherwise if your magnets aren't heavy enough the hop bag can still float and not get optimal contact with your beer.
 
what about something like this?

https://www.northernbrewer.com/prod...bbn-BTr3i_70QEjULk3XAIl4iabyLAbEaApEDEALw_wcB
i see in the product description 'rocket' is bran and generic term is hopback....

found this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2945073267...u77pLVWZgz2Er7Lewg62585AEuJVzF80aAq4ZEALw_wcB

if you had 2 kegs, and a jumper between them with a spunding valve on the other the fermentation should push the beer through the infuser? maybe?

https://www.amazon.com/BouncerMD-in...ocphy=9030226&hvtargid=pla-349829787746&psc=1
https://homebrewacademy.com/how-to-build-a-randall/
 
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RyPA said:
@JAReeves how does it come out this way?

I'm definitely going with the tea bag method on my next batch. I bought really strong magnets and tonight I vacuum sealed them in units small enough to fit into a muslin bag and I tested them on a corny keg. They are super strong and I do not see them having an issue holding up a wet bag of hops.
Click to expand...
The Dip Hop just adds another layer of flavor to a hoppy beer, like additions at FO & WP 170F would give you different characteristics from the same hop. There are good articles on the method, but I read about it mostly in the Janish book about hops.

As for your method of moving hops in and out of the liquid in the keg, I have never done this. If I DH in the keg, I go commando and haven’t noticed any grassy flavors. But once I DH, my beer is kept at 45F if still in the fermenter or 36F if in the keg. The grassy flavor doesn’t come through even after a month or two, as far as I taste.
 
@bracconiere - I think I have a plan for this batch, maybe I'll revisit that if this doesn't work. I do have 2 kegs, but there's no guarantee both will be empty at the same time.
 
The magnet method would certainly reduce oxygen exposure in a brite tank type arrangement, but if you are purging your brite/secondary keg before transferring from the fermenter, the hops aroma will also be getting purged as well.

If the goal is to reduce oxygen exposure and enhance hop flavor and aroma, the best approach would probably be a Randall, a hop dropper, or a liquid post infuser for hop oil or a hop tea.
 
I am fermenting and serving out of the same vessel, so it will be sealed from the time I pitch until the last pint is poured and consumed.

Here's my plan:

1. Pitch yeast
2. Secure hops to wall of keg using magnets, above wort so there is no contact.
3. Seal keg, add blow off tube for first few days of fermentation, then switch to spunding valve set to 10-12 psi.
4. When I am at the dry-hop time, slide the magnets down, so that the hops are sitting midway into the keg, saturated in liquid goodness.
5. When dry hopping is complete, slide magnets back to where they were originally, towards the top, out of the beer.
6. Put keg in kegerator and add CO2.
7. Drink beer.
 
RyPA said:
1. Pitch yeast
2. Secure hops to wall of keg using magnets, above wort so there is no contact.
3. Seal keg, add blow off tube for first few days of fermentation, then switch to spunding valve set to 10-12 psi.
Click to expand...

Just thinking that doing step two that early will lose a lot of hop aroma as air and co2 is pushed out, right? Especially in those first few days of vigorous fermentation.

If you're going to go with the magnet method, would it be better to secure the hops after those first few days, but also while co2 is still being produced before fermentation ends? Then when you're ready, theoretically the O2 from the hops would be pushed out from those remaining days of fermentation, you can drop the hops in. I imagine you'll still lose some aroma from the remaining fermentation, which would have started to slow down, but maybe not as much as you would for the entirety of fermentation.
 
The hops would be near the top of the keg, dry, so I don't see how they would lose anything. The goal with this plan is to have them in the vessel, completely dry, with the ability to drop them into the beer, and raise them out of the beer, without opening the fermenter.

I plan to dry hop when fermentation has slowed down a lot, so CO2 will be only be released from the spunding valve at this stage. I don't think there's much else I can do, not that worried about it to be honest. This batch is experimental for me, from a ferment and serve in the same vessel, and pressure fermentation persepective. If it doesn't work, I will try out other things.
 
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RyPA said:
The goal with this plan is to have them in the vessel, completely dry, with the ability to drop them into the beer, and raise them out of the beer, without opening the fermenter.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I understood what your goal was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the hops are still exposed to the environment in the fermenter and aren't "sealed" any longer. If you're putting a blow off tube for a few days I was thinking that some of the aroma of those hops will be pushed out along with the co2 in the keg, especially at a fermentation temp that's close to 68 F.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, and you don't lose much if they're dry. Just a thought that occurred to me when thinking about storing hops.
 

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