Optimum temp for max esters/banana in Weizen?

[JulietKilo]

Recently made two Weizens, a 3068 and a 3638, both were decent but I felt were light on the ester/banana factor. Room was 70degF, 72-73 in the buckets. Higher?? Other factor(s)?

 

[Bobby_M]

Two factors: Acid rest at 110F for 15 minutes (assuming you brew all grain) and then ferment cool, 60-64F.

 

[Qhrumphf]

What was your pitching rate? Overpitching a Weizen is no good.

Cool fermentation and acid rest brings out the clove. That's how I do it as well but requires careful yeast/fermentation management to not destroy the banana entirely.

45 minutes at 110F, conversion at 152F, pitch 0.25 million cells per ml per °P (ie even a single smack pack is too much yeast for a 5 gal batch at typical gravity especially if it's fresh, and a starter WAY too much), completely unaerated, and fermented at 62F.

It's not the most happy yeast for repitching, but big banana and big clove that way (heavier on the clove).

 

[applescrap]

Out of curisity, what was the recipe and water used?

 

[thehaze]

Two factors: Acid rest at 110F for 15 minutes (assuming you brew all grain) and then ferment cool, 60-64F.

Acid rest and cool fermentation is only to bring out the clove and mute the banana.

You need to ferment warm for banana and you need a strain which is known to give a lot of banana at higher temps.

Wyeast writes the following for 3068 WEIHENSTEPHAN : " The balance can be manipulated towards ester production through increasing the fermentation temperature, increasing the wort density, and decreasing the pitch rate. Over pitching can result in a near complete loss of banana character. Decreasing the ester level will allow a higher clove character to be perceived. "

You need to ferment at 75F maybe a bir higher, do a decoction, a thicker wort and keep the grainbill simple, using at least 50-60% Wheat and the rest Pilsner malt.

There will still be plenty of clove left even at higher temps to balance the " hefe " character.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Thehaze beat me to it. I don't think bobby noticed the OP wanting maximized banana.

I did a basic 50/50 wheat recently and wanted to push the banana hard but leave some residual malt flavor without drying it out (it's popular among the neighbor-beer-mooches) but also wanted to balance out some clove. I did a 20 minute rest at 111 then 153 for 60 minutes. Pitched 3068. Stuck the carboy on my garage workbench (crappy hot southern California) and said "it is what it is, go for it, be a banana bomb". Afternoons it hit 82 to 83, very early morning it read 76 to 78. Thank God for blow off tubes! The thing went full retard poofda.

Honestly, it was quite tasty. Got some banana, but not a bomb at all. Used saaz and citra but mildy. The probably held the banana back is I did a starter. I didn't stress the yeast enough. I'm actually thinking about doing it again before things cool down for the winter.

 

[JulietKilo]

Sorry I should have mentioned that I'm extract, so acid rest is unknown to me.

So warmer for esters, that's easy enough.

And wort density, assuming that's OG? Easy enough to increase that. How high for a weizen?

Pitch rate, using 3068 smack pack, I could not smack it to reduce cell count? Or just make a larger wort volume, I've got a 7.8gal fermenter bucket. Could fit 7 in there w/a blow-off. I've had some Belgian yeast need a blow-off but never a weizen yeast.

Applescrap, I'm using 100% RO water.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Sorry I should have mentioned that I'm extract, so acid rest is unknown to me.

So warmer for esters, that's easy enough.

And wort density, assuming that's OG? Easy enough to increase that. How high for a weizen?

Pitch rate, using 3068 smack pack, I could not smack it to reduce cell count? Or just make a larger wort volume, I've got a 7.8gal fermenter bucket. Could fit 7 in there w/a blow-off. I've had some Belgian yeast need a blow-off but never a weizen yeast.

Applescrap, I'm using 100% RO water.

You can manipulate many things with extract brewing to replicate various mash processes. Unfortunately an acid rest isn't one. I suppose you could actually add ferulic acid. How ferulic acid is metabolised by weizen yeast into the clove phenolic, so if it's extra banana you're after it won't help you anyway.

A 5.5 gallon batch at 1.048 at my target rate is about 62 billion viable cells. A smack pack contains 100 billion cells, although the level of viability depends on age. Assuming Mr. Malty's degredation figures (which are the steepest, other models have slower degredation) you'll lose about 25% viability (going off memory here) a month from production (typical homebrew shop age in my experience, although some people get fresher yeast).

You can play with numbers from there- increasing the batch volume is one way, although these are heavy krausen producers so definitely use a blowoff. Simple solution is to sit on the yeast. It's what I've done in the past. Let the pack age until the viability is where I want it. Other models may say it takes longer. Find one that works for you (if you can assess rate/viability via microscope even better).

Not smacking it won't help you. That's simply nutrient to get it active, it doesn't actually alter the cell count.

 

[Smellyglove]

Or you can do a small starter, not for bumping cell count, but just to keep them viable and to split it more easy. Split the starter into two glasses/jars whatever. This way you'll end up with a more "proper" pitch-rate, and you have splitted the one pack you bought so you can make two beers from one pack.

I always split my one pack into three from a starter. So I have three parallell yeast strains going. For hefes I only reharvest once, as I can't get the third gen to sit. So from one pack I get six beers, where the gen 2 are always the best tasting ones. Top crop only, bottom cropping doesn't give me anything close to what I want.

 

[JulietKilo]

For the record, started a Weizen on 10/14 with Lallemand Munich Classic dry yeast, 1.060 OG, and keeping at 75degF, certainly smells more estery at the trap. Just smacked a 3068 and plan the same OG and temp for it. Shall see...

 

[Smellyglove]

For the record, started a Weizen on 10/14 with Lallemand Munich Classic dry yeast, 1.060 OG, and keeping at 75degF, certainly smells more estery at the trap. Just smacked a 3068 and plan the same OG and temp for it. Shall see...

1.060 is pretty high for a Hefeweizen, it's in fact to high comparing the "style profile. Higher OG will yield more esters. I can notice it very clear it from 1.052 to 1.048. where 1.052 gives you more esters.

 

[14thstreet]

For hefes I only reharvest once, as I can't get the third gen to sit.

By sit you mean lower attenuation?

With 50-70% wheat, it seems the more munich/vienna/cara/etc I have as opposed to pale malt, the less banana/clove I get, even with a long ferulic acid rest. Maybe balanced, but definitely lower, with 3068.

 

[logdrum]

Two factors: Acid rest at 110F for 15 minutes (assuming you brew all grain) and then ferment cool, 60-64F.

I agree with both points here. Just finished a Dunkleweizen w a 15 min acid rest, then fermented @ 62*F; perfect mix of banana & clove. This was w/ WLP300

 

[JulietKilo]

1.060 is pretty high for a Hefeweizen, it's in fact to high comparing the "style profile. Higher OG will yield more esters. I can notice it very clear it from 1.052 to 1.048. where 1.052 gives you more esters.

It'll be interesting to find out what it's like. Hopefully not bad...

 

[Smellyglove]

By sit you mean lower attenuation?

With 50-70% wheat, it seems the more munich/vienna/cara/etc I have as opposed to pale malt, the less banana/clove I get, even with a long ferulic acid rest. Maybe balanced, but definitely lower, with 3068.

No they attenuate fully, but flavorwise I can't get them to where I want. Probably my harvesting technique/timing.

 

[dmtaylor]

Did you pitch an entire packet of Munich Classic in about 5 gallons? I need to experiment more to know for sure but I have a feeling that that would be a severe overpitch for a hefe. I'd be using about 1/4 packet in 5 if I wanted a lot of banana.

 

[Smellyglove]

No they attenuate fully, but flavorwise I can't get them to where I want. Probably my harvesting technique/timing.

I've brewed my Hefe 15 times in 12 months now. I've been trying to nail the "perfect" one according to my vision.

One thing I've learnt is that Hefe's are very difficult to brew. I know it's the same with all kinds of beers, when you're into nailing the perfect one, because then you're down to small nuances, in every step. But I got obsessed with it. Hefe's are a yeast-driven beer, so I feel it's harder than a malty beer, where you look mostly at the grist.

Unless the recipe is total crap, which is hard to pull off unless you're in for it. I've noticed that post fermentation matters a lot, which I wouldn't say about an IPA, where you just keep it cold all the way and don't let any oxygen get to it. There are some quirks there too but an IPA is pretty easy to pull off comparing to a Hefe imo.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Hefe's to me are a very simple and easy starter beer because it's easy to brew a passable one. They tolerate and benefit from poor beginner mistakes like lack of aeration and low pitch rates. Plus easy grain bill and hop schedule especially for an extract brewer.

However brewing a great one is the challenge.

 

[Smellyglove]

Hefe's to me are a very simple and easy starter beer because it's easy to brew a passable one. They tolerate and benefit from poor beginner mistakes like lack of aeration and low pitch rates. Plus easy grain bill and hop schedule especially for an extract brewer.

However brewing a great one is the challenge.

That's a good point and you are correct. Just get some banana in there and it's a hefe, more or less.

 

[JulietKilo]

Did you pitch an entire packet of Munich Classic in about 5 gallons? I need to experiment more to know for sure but I have a feeling that that would be a severe overpitch for a hefe. I'd be using about 1/4 packet in 5 if I wanted a lot of banana.

The whole packet in 6gal, I'll have to try less in a future batch. I wasn't sure how far one can underpitch having never tried it, I'm assuming attenuation is not at risk when underpitching? Just slower?

 

[dmtaylor]

The whole packet in 6gal, I'll have to try less in a future batch. I wasn't sure how far one can underpitch having never tried it, I'm assuming attenuation is not at risk when underpitching? Just slower?

Lag time might be an extra 8-12 hours, that's about it. Attenuation won't change at all.

 

[Sadu]

I have worked very hard to brew the perfect hefe (for my tastes). Totally disagree about it being a beginner style, if you are someone who knows what a good hefe should taste like.

I did an interesting pitch rate experiment a while back. If your yeast is super healthy (make a fresh starter, crash and decant) then you can get a solid fermentation with as little as 1ml yeast per liter or 1tsp per gallon. This is far less than the pitch rate calculators suggest. For banana you want to abuse the yeast. Use old slurry, no starter, no aeration, and much less that you would normally use. Combine this with a warm ferment to maximise further.

 

[Smellyglove]

I have worked very hard to brew the perfect hefe (for my tastes). Totally disagree about it being a beginner style, if you are someone who knows what a good hefe should taste like.

I did an interesting pitch rate experiment a while back. If your yeast is super healthy (make a fresh starter, crash and decant) then you can get a solid fermentation with as little as 1ml yeast per liter or 1tsp per gallon. This is far less than the pitch rate calculators suggest. For banana you want to abuse the yeast. Use old slurry, no starter, no aeration, and much less that you would normally use. Combine this with a warm ferment to maximise further.

I disagree. Heavily underpitching can give you more banana, but also more of stuff you maybe don't want, because of an unhealty fermentation. I have a very simple take on this. Pitch correctly, for a hefeweizen. Have a healty fermentation and get a "clean" beer, clean as in the esters and phenols you're after are there, but no off flavors.

Half of the magic in creating a great Hefeweizen is in the mash. Prime the mash to what you want it to taste, given a pitch-rate of x-generation yeast, pitch a healty amount of yeast, and get what you want. But this is very difficult. That's where the art of a Hefeweizen is.

 

[dmtaylor]

The best hefeweizens I have ever made or tasted from friends were the beginner extract batches where they pitched a vial of old yeast, no starter, and just let 'er rip at room temp. It *is* a style that beginners have no trouble with, but "experts" like many of us struggle to death with because we want to be so kind to the yeast. I believe we *need* to be *unkind* to get the best out of this kind of yeast.

 

[Smellyglove]

The best hefeweizens I have ever made or tasted from friends were the beginner extract batches where they pitched a vial of old yeast, no starter, and just let 'er rip at room temp. It *is* a style that beginners have no trouble with, but "experts" like many of us struggle to death with because we want to be so kind to the yeast. I believe we *need* to be *unkind* to get the best out of this kind of yeast.

It all depends on references. Many people call a hefe-grist and a fermentation which has some banana, for a Hefeweizen. I haven't tasted your friends's hefeweizen so I'm not saying that you're wrong. But can they replicate it? And how would they compare to Bavarian Hefeweizens?

 

[JulietKilo]

Guess I'll be finding out what a higher temp yields as my 3068 batch was 80F when I got up today. Usually I don't see much over 70 where I ferment so I put the carboy in a pan of water w/a fishtank heater set to 75, but it got up to 75 in the house, the wort was 80 and the heater off. Been dropping occasional ice cubes in the pan to bring it closer to 75. Usually my weizens while active don't need a blowoff but this one did, though it is 6gal in a 7.5gal Fermonster. Smells good anyway...

 

[Sadu]

I disagree. Heavily underpitching can give you more banana, but also more of stuff you maybe don't want, because of an unhealty fermentation. I have a very simple take on this. Pitch correctly, for a hefeweizen. Have a healty fermentation and get a "clean" beer, clean as in the esters and phenols you're after are there, but no off flavors.

Half of the magic in creating a great Hefeweizen is in the mash. Prime the mash to what you want it to taste, given a pitch-rate of x-generation yeast, pitch a healty amount of yeast, and get what you want. But this is very difficult. That's where the art of a Hefeweizen is.

I think we are basically in agreement here. I advocate for an underpitch, but not so much that you get yourself into stalled fermentation territory. Part of the art / science is figuring how much to underpitch by, and my point is that you can get away with a lot less than you might think. For me my hefes went from poor to amazing by switching to a warmer sacc-rest (in conjunction with a step mash that I was already doing), and using Weyermann malts. I target around 1.015 FG and these to me taste like the real thing, far better than the dry ones.

Just for anyone interested, here is what it looks like at 24 hours with 2ml of super healthy yeast pitched into approx 1.5L of non-aerated wort...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7723530&postcount=10
Side by side with 4ml and 7ml (7ml being what I calculated to be the 'normal' pitch rate).

 

[Murphys_Law]

I brewed my best hefe this summer doing a rest around 114*, pitched around 75% of the recommended pitch rate, and fermented 3068 at 68*

I don’t have my notes but I may have even let it raise to around 72* for the last few days.

It turned out to be a good balance between clove and banana.

And I drank that beer young and fast!

 

[logdrum]

I think we are basically in agreement here. I advocate for an underpitch, but not so much that you get yourself into stalled fermentation territory. Part of the art / science is figuring how much to underpitch by, and my point is that you can get away with a lot less than you might think. For me my hefes went from poor to amazing by switching to a warmer sacc-rest (in conjunction with a step mash that I was already doing), and using Weyermann malts. I target around 1.015 FG and these to me taste like the real thing, far better than the dry ones.

Just for anyone interested, here is what it looks like at 24 hours with 2ml of super healthy yeast pitched into approx 1.5L of non-aerated wort...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7723530&postcount=10
Side by side with 4ml and 7ml (7ml being what I calculated to be the 'normal' pitch rate).

I'm curious about your step mash regimen.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I have worked very hard to brew the perfect hefe (for my tastes). Totally disagree about it being a beginner style, if you are someone who knows what a good hefe should taste like.

I did an interesting pitch rate experiment a while back. If your yeast is super healthy (make a fresh starter, crash and decant) then you can get a solid fermentation with as little as 1ml yeast per liter or 1tsp per gallon. This is far less than the pitch rate calculators suggest. For banana you want to abuse the yeast. Use old slurry, no starter, no aeration, and much less that you would normally use. Combine this with a warm ferment to maximise further.

That's why I said "passable". It's easy to make a wheaty, banana-laden hefe with wheat extract, old liquid yeast, no aeration, and no temp control. It'll be drinkable, and more forgiving to newb process than a Barleywine or a Helles Lager. That doesn't mean it'll be a traditional, great example of a Hefe. A true world class authentic Hefe is one of the more difficult styles to master in my opinion.

Honestly maximizing the banana I think its people's first mistake. Most of the classics I recall (Paulaner, Weihenstephaner, Hacker-Pschorr, etc), show both clove and banana, but either a relatively even balance of both, or a bit heavier on the clove. That's where I've always headed, hence the process I've indicated.

I haven't found a way apart from a careful underpitch (too little and you have ferment problems, too much and you lose banana), no aeration, acid rest, and a cool fermentation. As you said, abuse the yeast. Plus a multi-step decoction mash (acid/protein/beta/alpha/mashout, or acid/protein/alpha/mashout). I've done two step infusion mashes (acid/sacch) with a bit of added melanoidin malt and it works, but it's not as good, but sometimes time/equipment render multi step decoction impractical/impossible.

Newbs abuse yeast all the time. In this case, it's beneficial (albeit without the delicate balance of a classic). That's why I think it's a good starter beer.

 

[dmtaylor]

It all depends on references. Many people call a hefe-grist and a fermentation which has some banana, for a Hefeweizen. I haven't tasted your friends's hefeweizen so I'm not saying that you're wrong. But can they replicate it? And how would they compare to Bavarian Hefeweizens?

I'm a BJCP Certified judge.

My friend took 1st place in the category in competition, and I know he deserved it. This was the second batch he ever brewed.

But maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just another guy from the interwebs. And I'll admit I've been wrong before.

 

[thunderwagn]

But can they replicate it?

^
I think hefe's are tough. I believe it's fairly easy to abuse yeast, temps, etc. and produce bubblegummy banana clove riddled hefe's...sometimes with a bit of sulfur/rotten egg...but are they clean and true to style? I mean if the bubblegum banana bombs are what you're after and that's what your tastes prefer, than by all means. Brew what you want and what you enjoy! But I think actually producing a hefeweizen that's true to style ain't easy. My gut (and taste buds) tell me mash procedures, proper fermentation temps and pitch rates are still vital. Even with a hefeweizen. I know I struggle with this style, and in my opinion, so do a LOT of breweries. Whether they'd like to admit that or not.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

It boils down to style preference and the individuals taste buds. What some consider a banana-bomb, others think are too light on banana.

After all, there are people that think bud light is great beer. I think it tastes like watery dish soap.

Try many and compare recipes and processes. Study the different yeasts and their characteristics. Tweak the recipe for your preference and strive for repeatability

 

[danbrough]

I'm up to about batch #50 of hefes (and quite a few weizenbocks). I've tried all the tricks and the abuse of yeast-stress, under-pitching, hot fermentation etc..
I think everyone has a point. Some of my best results were pitched on the low side without a starter, but that said, I used very fresh top cropped yeast.
(about 50ml of top cropped yeast for a 19L batch that I kept in the fridge for less than a week before using)

Apart from pitching on the low side with very health yeast, all my other experiments at yeast stress were failures with off-flavours/aromas present.

If you're bottle conditioning the most important thing is to not use sugar to prime. Instead use 10-15% of the original wort. (keep it in the freezer).
To improve the esters I keep as little trub getting into the fermenter as possible. I strain the cooled wort into a tall fermenter and leave it for around an hour before racking off to a wide fermenter. Stopped getting the occasional soapy/fatty off-flavour from doing that too.

The other thing that notably increases the banana ester is to produce a wort high in glucose.
To do this you need to produce the maltose at 62c/143.6f using half your grain and then mix it with the other half to rest at 38c / 100f for an hour.
(The enzymes that produce the glucose get denatured at hot (62c) temperatures so thats why you only use half the grain).

Another way to do that is via a decoction.

My perfect mash programme for hefe is now:
Mash in at around 4.1L/KG (very wet mash, soft water with no additives or acid malt, high PH) at 30C/86F for half an hour to wet the grains and get all the starch and enzymes into the liquid. (stirring occasionally).
Pull 1/3 thick mash from the bottom and quickly heat to 62C/143F for 40mins to produce the maltose.
Mix it back (to 35c) and raise to 38C/100F for an hour to produce the glucose.
Pull thick 1/3 decoction again and raise to 70C/158F for 10 mins for some dextrins.
Boil thick for 20mins (for the melanoidins and some colour) while raising the thin mash to 66C/150F.
Carefully mix back to keep below mash-out temp, rest at 70C/158F for 10 mins. (add the hulls)
(boiling the decoction will release more starch that needs to be converted).
Then mash-out at 78C.

Takes all day. Totally worth it.
For more clovey hefe's I find using more (70%) rather than 50% wheat helps and also raising the glucose (38C) rest closer to the ferulic acid rest (43C),
but the main factor for accentuated clove is a lower fermentation temp.

I've also used a variant of this mash for pale weizenbocks with high attenuation (Weiphenstephaner Vitus clone).
Managed to get 80% attenuation out of Wy3068. (Lowered the 70c rests to 65c and "mashed out" at 74C not 78C)
For dark weizenbocks I skip the decoction boil for a shorter mash and then add the specialty malt at recirculation.
I also ferment at 22C for weizenbocks (max 3068 temp) using top cropped yeast and a starter with decent aeration.
As long as you don't stress the yeast you don't get the boozy higher alcohols or the horrid almond/marzipan esters.
I also use 10% of the original wort for priming weizenbocks. Sugar is for the belgians.

Despite all this mash abuse and fermenting in a semi-open fermenter I've had no issues with oxidation.
I still can't make a bottle conditioned IPA as I'm very sensitive to oxidised aroma and flavour.
The trick with getting more banana from removing as much trub as possible actually came from some super-taster here
who kept complaining about banana in their beers even when they were using US-05.
Their solution was adding more trub to the fermenter and so I tried the reverse as I always assumed trub was beneficial
and I noticed an immediate increase in esters.