Only StarSan for cleaning?

[coonmanx]

It's fine if that "works" for you and you just don't want to change, but Star San does not adequately remove organic residue and therefore should not be used by itself as a cleanser.
This recommendation is backed by both science and empirical evidence -- plenty of brewers report contamination when using only Star San for cleansing.

Each to his own. I go by what my eyes see and I am not running a brewery either. It works as a cleaner. At the restaurant where I work we use an oven cleaner that contains an acid as well. It smells horrible and you are not supposed to breathe it in. So the StarSan has similar cleaning properties but without the smell.

 

[coonmanx]

https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/28/28a453b5-4926-4fd9-a19c-59766287c746.pdf

Not exactly the same thing but they both are phosphoric acid and it has cleaning properties.

The bottom of my brew kettle is shiny when I am done using the StarSan on it. Same with the keg. I have never had any sanitation issues at all. So I don't see a problem here.

Also if you read my earlier posts I am not using it to clean my fermenter. For that I am using OxiClean. Big difference. Also I am not using it to sanitize my fermenter either.

 

[RPh_Guy]

https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/28/28a453b5-4926-4fd9-a19c-59766287c746.pdf

Not exactly the same thing but they both are phosphoric acid and it has cleaning properties.

Just read the instructions on that document. It requires scrubbing and they suggest other agents are needed as well.

I go by what my eyes see

We're working to prevent microscopic contamination, so we can't exactly trust our eyes when determining the best practice.

There's no reason to use different cleaning processes for fermenters and kegs, they're both cold side equipment and both have extended contact with the beer/etc.

 

[coonmanx]

Just read the instructions on that document. It requires scrubbing and they suggest other agents are needed as well.


We're working to prevent microscopic contamination, so we can't exactly trust our eyes when determining the best practice.

There's no reason to use different cleaning processes for fermenters and kegs, they're both cold side equipment and both have extended contact with the beer/etc.

I will go with my 33 years experience and the fact that I have not once ever had a sanitation issue. But please. let's create problems when none exist. The proof is in the final product and I recently served up a 5 gallon keg to friends that lasted all of 3 hours....

Just sharing my experience. If someone does not want to do things that way then that is their choice. Nobody is forcing anyone to listen to anything that I say or do anything the way I do. It's still a free world.

 

[RPh_Guy]

When evaluating risk using a certain practice, it's important to look at failures more so than successes. The first 2 guys playing russian roulette might recommend it as a fun game good for parties.

If your Star San only process works for you, that's fine, but it's not a good process to recommend to everyone. Others might have other differences in their methods that make it more risky. Hope that makes sense.

 

[coonmanx]

When evaluating risk using a certain practice, it's important to look at failures more so than successes. The first 2 guys playing russian roulette might recommend it as a fun game good for parties.

If your Star San only process works for you, that's fine, but it's not a good process to recommend to everyone. Others might have other differences in their methods that make it more risky. Hope that makes sense.

The only thing I want to add is that recently we had an "Ice Bowl" disc golf event here in Colorado Springs. I brought a keg of my brew and there were two kegs from a local brewery. My keg was gone in 3 hours time and the other two kegs were not even close. I got comments like "You should bottle and sell this beer". So I have a certain amount of confidence in how I do things and sleep pretty well at night. I am pretty meticulous when it comes to cleaning and sanitizing. You may disagree and that is fine but I'm not going to worry about something that is a theoretical possibility. That is just not in my nature.

 

[coonmanx]

You know, I don't remember whether I have ever used some OxiClean or PBW on the keg for cleaning it. I might have. I might even do it next time before using the StarSan. I have plenty of it.

I do have a bunch of One Step cleaner that a friend gave me.

 

[IslandLizard]

The first 2 guys playing russian roulette might recommend it as a fun game good for parties.

Now that cracked me up!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm not going to worry about something that is a theoretical possibility.

It's not just theoretical. Other people using just Star San actually do get contaminations.

 

[coonmanx]

Of course I would generally say "prove it". Also you don't know their procedure, how they actually sanitized or failed to do so....

Here is something to know about me. My great grandfather was a brewer, although in a time when it was probably not as legal as today. My dad told me stories about the beer being "ready" when the bottle caps from the bottles stored in the basement would shoot off and hit the bottom of the floor. So obviously they didn't have that great of carbonation control back then.

I am a brewer but consider myself to be much like a chef. I create a recipe from raw ingredients much like a chef. A chef creates a dish while I create a beer. It also takes longer for me to "serve" the final product.

I don't sweat the small stuff. In Russian roulette someone could get their head blown off. If something happened to one of my batches I might lose 5 gallons of beer and have to start over. This recently happened but had nothing to do with sanitation. I had a fresh keg of Apricot Honey Ale that was delicious. I told some dics golfers down in Pueblo, CO that I would bring it the next morningto share with them. But first I wanted to share it with a friend. So I took it over there in my "new" car which I recently got (a 1999 Ford Escort ZX2). When I went to hook it up I realized that I didn't have a flashlight to check the keg connections. I tried to get my friend to use his smartphone for a flashlight but he didn't know how. LOL. So we sat and drank for a few hours and when I went to leave the keg was almost empty. I soon figured out what happened, that there was a serving side leak while I was applying serving pressure. I usually disconnect the gas from time to time on a keg but this keg never got too foamy and that should have raised an alarm bell. But it didn't. So the entire keg got wasted on the ground. I was super depressed for a day and then immediately ordered the ingredients for a Mango Honey Ale, which I brewed about a week later. Got right back on that horse.

I don't really sweat the small stuff and maybe that is just me. I only have so many days left on this rock so why not enjoy them? Life is too short.

My 2 cents....

 

[coonmanx]

You know, technical brewers can make technical beers but maybe they don't make that one beer that sweeps you off of your feet. There is something to brewing, much like cooking, that doesn't come from a book but from the heart. I brew from the heart and usually don't drink the majority of the beer that I make. It all gets shared because that is my way of giving back to the community. And to me, if they like it, then I like it.... Maybe that helps others understand my point of view. If I make a mistake then I will learn from it. But right now things in the brewing world are going pretty well. I plan on then staying that way....

 

[coonmanx]

It's not just theoretical. Other people using just Star San actually do get contaminations.

In order for this to be a relevant statement you would have to provide actual data from all people who just use StarSan and what percentage of them actually get contaminations. That would actually be providing evidence and not just a blanket statement about "other people".... I would actually like to see that data set.

 

[fendersrule]

I used to use only Star San in the past. I "thought" it was a cleaner as well as a sanitizer.

Six batches in, I started to get infections. Took me forever to figure it out. I went from improving fermentation temps, to doing other "improvements" that were completely unrelated to the problem at hand.I told everyone who was trying to figure it out with me that I've been cleaning everything.

I went through a "bleach" cycle on everything and re-brewed.

Infected again.

Then I found out the problem: I wasn't using a cleaner for my fermenters. Ever since I started using PBW, I haven't had an infection since (about 8 batches so far since). My beers have never tasted better.

If you only use Star San to clean, it will come up and bite you eventually like it did me.

 

[IslandLizard]

https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/28/28a453b5-4926-4fd9-a19c-59766287c746.pdf

Not exactly the same thing but they both are phosphoric acid and it has cleaning properties.

Miracle Sealants Company - Phosphoric Acid Cleaner

From their MSDS:
Specific gravity: 1.22

That comes out to a concentration of around 45% 35% Phosphoric Acid.
No mention of other ingredients.

From the product data sheet:
Deep Cleaning Action for Most Concrete/Masonry Surfaces

Mold, Mildew and Bacteria Sanitation:
For best results in killing mold, mildew, bacteria and other micro organisms, use Miracle Wipes as directed.

 

[coonmanx]

A couple of things that have not been mentioned here. First is the fact that when I use the StarSan for clening the keg and removing debris I have my arm inside the keg and I am using a green scrubbie and physically removing debris by scrubbing. The StarSan is used full stregth. I have no idea how fendersrule was doing it or if he was in any way using a similar method to the way I am doing things. That matters.

Secondly, it is just as important how the keg is handled once all of the cleaning, sanitizing and rinsing has been completed. How is the keg dried and then stored?

Here is what I do. After I run everything through the keg I turn it upside down and rinse it by holding it over the bottle washer. I then let it sit for a minute or two upside down on the divider between the two sink halves to drain. Keeping it upside down is very important so that nothing can get in it. When it has drained for a few minutes I then take it, still upside down, and put it on a clean towel to dry. It dries for a few days and then after that I flip it over and there is usually a small amount of water in the bottom of it that probably came from the pickup tube. I reach in with clean hands and a clean paper towel and mop that up. Probably the only way I could prevent that small amount of water from staying there during the process would be to run some gas backwards through that small tube to blow it out while upside down. That should work.

After I am confident that the keg is fully dry I then seal it off and store it until I am ready to use it. This means two things. First, nothing can get inside the keg at this point in time. And second, bacteria needs moisture to survive. The keg being completely dry prevents bacteria from existing in the keg as it can not live on a dry surface for any amount of time. That is the science.

Not trying to beat a dead horse here and I doubt that I will convert anyone to doing things exactly like I do. I also may use some cleaner on the keg the next time I go through the process. But I will soon have another batch in the keg and I am confident that it will be just fine. But that is me.

Also as far as mold and mildew go.... I used a small green scrubbie with some StarSan on it in the bathroom to combat some black mildew that I saw growing on the ceiling above the shower. Before that I had only ever tried using bleach and it would kill it off for a small period of time before it came back. When I used the StarSan the black mildew not only disappeared but it never came back. Also remember that I am basically using it full strength in these situations. When I am reaching into the keg to use it to remove buildup I am putting it full strength on a green scrubbie. It's acidic power is a lot stronger when used like that. These details are very important to the discussion. Did fendersrule physically reach into his keg and scrub the sides down with a green scrubbie and some StarSan while cleaning the keg? I don't know.

You may now return to your regular programming. Just wanted everyone to have all of the information and not make any assumptions.

 

[kh54s10]

In order for this to be a relevant statement you would have to provide actual data from all people who just use StarSan and what percentage of them actually get contaminations. That would actually be providing evidence and not just a blanket statement about "other people".... I would actually like to see that data set.

I highly doubt in the world of homebrewing that reporting contaminations is ever going to be something that anyone could put into a report.

Read the "is my beer ruined" threads. A ton of them are because of improper cleaning and sanitation.

Remember that once Starsan dries it is no longer effective as a sanitizer. Thus sanitizing and then storage of an open container is a waste of Starsan. (Closed containers would remain sanitary - inside) You need to do sanitize again before use. If not you are like those kids playing Russian Roulette.

We are not really saying your procedure is not effective - for you it is. We are saying that just because it has worked for you doesn't make it good advice. I have used utensils that I forgot to sanitize without infection, but I would not advise doing that. I would not say the unsanitized utensils are not a concern based on my experience.

 

[coonmanx]

I highly doubt in the world of homebrewing that reporting contaminations is ever going to be something that anyone could put into a report.

Read the "is my beer ruined" threads. A ton of them are because of improper cleaning and sanitation.

Remember that once Starsan dries it is no longer effective as a sanitizer. Thus sanitizing and then storage of an open container is a waste of Starsan. (Closed containers would remain sanitary - inside) You need to do sanitize again before use. If not you are like those kids playing Russian Roulette.

We are not really saying your procedure is not effective - for you it is. We are saying that just because it has worked for you doesn't make it good advice. I have used utensils that I forgot to sanitize without infection, but I would not advise doing that. I would not say the unsanitized utensils are not a concern based on my experience.

And I get that but please can we stop using the Russian Roulette analogy. We are not talking about people getting their heads blown off. We are talking about beer. Also bacteria needs moisture to survive so storing a clean, dry and sanitized keg sealed up is a good way to do things no matter how you get there. Bacteria can not live for very long without moisture. That is science. And long ago they figured out that bacteria can not get into a sealed system. We learned that back in eighth grade biology. So in fact, the longer my keg sits there sealed up and dry, the less the likelihood of any contamination surviving and that is science. Go look it up.

I have never seen dried up StarSan so I don't even know what that means....

 

[coonmanx]

Pasteur's experiment... And he did not even used a sealed system but one in which things could not fall down into the liquid....

https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/scientific-experiments/scientific-method5.htm

But this is why I dry things upside down. Because it is a simple and effective way to prevent anything from falling into it. I also run a HEPA air filter in the room where I dry my keg.

 

[kh54s10]

And I get that but please can we stop using the Russian Roulette analogy. We are not talking about people getting their heads blown off. We are talking about beer. Also bacteria needs moisture to survive so storing a clean, dry and sanitized keg sealed up is a good way to do things no matter how you get there. Bacteria can not live for very long without moisture. That is science. And long ago they figured out that bacteria can not get into a sealed system. We learned that back in eighth grade biology. So in fact, the longer my keg sits there sealed up and dry, the less the likelihood of any contamination surviving and that is science. Go look it up.

I have never seen dried up StarSan so I don't even know what that means....

Sealed is the key here.

Dried up Starsan is not just dried up Starsan. It is a utensil that had been sanitized with Starsan and allowed to dry. An example of what I am describing would be a stir spoon. You sanitize it with Starsan and use it while it is still wet. If you then clean and rinse it and store it for use on your next brew day it is only still sanitary until the Starsan dries. Once dry it is no longer sanitary.

 

[coonmanx]

Sealed is the key here.

Dried up Starsan is not just dried up Starsan. It is a utensil that had been sanitized with Starsan and allowed to dry. An example of what I am describing would be a stir spoon. You sanitize it with Starsan and use it while it is still wet. If you then clean and rinse it and store it for use on your next brew day it is only still sanitary until the Starsan dries. Once dry it is no longer sanitary.

And once again that depends on how you store it. If it were stored in a sterile environment then it should still be sterile unless there was something there that had recontaminated it. In my case the keg has been fully dried upside down and then sealed. Once that happens nothing can get in and nothing can get out and bacteria needs moisture to survive.... Please show me an example of bacteria living for more than a short anount of time on a dry surface. You can't because it does not happen.

 

[kh54s10]

And once again that depends on how you store it. If it were stored in a sterile environment then it should still be sterile unless there was something there that had recontaminated it. In my case the keg has been fully dried upside down and then sealed. Once that happens nothing can get in and nothing can get out and bacteria needs moisture to survive....

OK. Your sealed or upside down container. But I doubt anyone brews in a clean room where a spoon would stay sanitized....

 

[coonmanx]

Pasteur's experiment way back when demonstrated that organisms don't just self generate out of thin air.

 

[coonmanx]

OK. Your sealed or upside down container. But I doubt anyone brews in a clean room where a spoon would stay sanitized....

And why would anyone stick a spoon into finished beer? They wouldn't. They would use a spoon in a brew kettle while boiling. If you stick an unsanitized spoon into beer at any point when it is in the fermenter then you should not be brewing....

 

[coonmanx]

I think I will bow out of this discussion now because enough has already been said and we are beating a dead horse. I even said that I might use some cleaner next time I scrub down the keg. But I won't be getting paranoid worrying about the "what ifs". Too many of them in life and I only have so many days left. If you walk outside tomorrow you could get hit by a car. But I bet you will still walk outside tomorrow. Unless of course you are self quarantining....

 

[IslandLizard]

@coonmanx, when you mention using "StarSan," are you using the Five Stars brand StarSan or the Phosphoric Acid Cleaner from HomeDepot you linked to earlier?

 

[kh54s10]

And why would anyone stick a spoon into finished beer? They wouldn't. They would use a spoon in a brew kettle while boiling. If you stick an unsanitized spoon into beer at any point when it is in the fermenter then you should not be brewing....

Really??? I can think of a couple right off the top of my head. Stirring the wort while it is cooling to make an IC more effective. Stirring a beer in a bottling bucket to more thoroughly mix a priming solution.

You ARE right that you shouldn't be putting an unsanitized spoon in beer - but S#!t happens. Not a spoon but I dropped the package of yeast into my fermenter once and picked it out as carefully as I could with my unsanitized hand. It did not get infected, but I would not say that is an OK practice.

 

[coonmanx]

@coonmanx, when you mention using "StarSan," are you using the Five Stars brand StarSan or the Phosphoric Acid Cleaner from HomeDepot you linked to earlier?

StarSan. I only linked to the other one because I was Googling the cleaning properties of phosphoric acid. And like I said I used StarSan to permanently remove black mildew on the ceiling above the shower when bleach had previously failed.

 

[coonmanx]

Really??? I can think of a couple right off the top of my head. Stirring the wort while it is cooling to make an IC more effective. Stirring a beer in a bottling bucket to more thoroughly mix a priming solution.

You ARE right that you shouldn't be putting an unsanitized spoon in beer - but S#!t happens. Not a spoon but I dropped the package of yeast into my fermenter once and picked it out as carefully as I could with my unsanitized hand. It did not get infected, but I would not say that is an OK practice.

I did not say "sanitized spoon". I clearly said "unsanitized spoon" and sh*t does not happen unless you are not careful. But that is not what we are talking about and you know it.

LOL. It tried to change the word sh*t to poopy. How ridiculous is that?

 

[coonmanx]

Also nobody here has produced a single bit of evidence that bacteria can survive on a dry surface for more than a few days. If you have that evidence then post it up for all to see. Just saying. It's easy to make a claim but harder to actually back it up.

 

[IslandLizard]

I did not say "sanitized spoon". I clearly said "unsanitized spoon" and sh*t does not happen unless you are not careful. But that is not what we are talking about and you know it.

LOL. It tried to change the word sh*t to poopy. How ridiculous is that?

We try to keep our forums clean, but can't really sanitize it or we would.

We do flush out incessant potty mouths and abusive members, and those who question moderation actions.
Keep that in mind!

 

[Nate R]

Man oh man... i should just keep my darn mouth shut... but...
I know a lot brewers argue PBW brand vs. other options for costs.
I would think undiluted starsan is even more expensive than PBW right?
I would think PBW or similar then diluted star san would save a good deal of money. But not time- it is an extra step.
Please don't anyone take this personally!!

Now back to finding some toilet paper....

 

[IslandLizard]

I know a lot brewers argue PBW brand vs. other options for costs.
I would think undiluted starsan is even more expensive than PBW right?
I would think PBW or similar then diluted star san would save a good deal of money.

A tablespoon of Washing Soda, Oxiclean, or PBW weighs around 22-24 grams depending on how much moisture it absorbed, so about 20 tablespoons per pound.

Washing Soda, (generic) Oxiclean are indeed relatively cheap, around $1-2 a pound.
Around $0.05-0.10 per tablespoon (average use).

Homemade PBW (70% Oxiclean/30% Metasilicate) runs anywhere between $2-4 a pound. All depending on source, brand, and mixture used of course.
Around $0.10-0.20 per tablespoon (average use).

Brand name PBW runs you $4-16 a pound, depending on size and store you buy from. At our group grain buy the (real) Five Stars PBW in 50# buckets runs us a tad under $4 a pound.
Around $0.20-0.80 per tablespoon (average use).

Starsan runs anywhere between $0.50 (gallon jug) and $2.00 (4 oz bottle) an ounce depending on container size and place you buy it at.

 

[Nate R]

Is there "black market" PBW? I snagged a replacment 4# tub from The amqmazon for about what an online store woild charge, but free prime shipping.

The label is just a touch different than my last bucket. Maybe a new printer, but... i dunno.

Anyone heard of this??

 

[IslandLizard]

Is there "black market" PBW? I snagged a replacment 4# tub from The amqmazon for about what an online store woild charge, but free prime shipping.

The label is just a touch different than my last bucket. Maybe a new printer, but... i dunno.

Anyone heard of this??

Can you post a picture of that container/label? What's the quality of the label? Does it look like a "photocopy?"

 

[kh54s10]

Also nobody here has produced a single bit of evidence that bacteria can survive on a dry surface for more than a few days. If you have that evidence then post it up for all to see. Just saying. It's easy to make a claim but harder to actually back it up.

So you believe that a dry surface will only get bacteria on it once?? And then it will die and there will be no more??

 

[fendersrule]

A couple of things that have not been mentioned here. First is the fact that when I use the StarSan for clening the keg and removing debris I have my arm inside the keg and I am using a green scrubbie and physically removing debris by scrubbing. The StarSan is used full stregth. I have no idea how fendersrule was doing it or if he was in any way using a similar method to the way I am doing things. That matters.

Dude, I was scrubbing only with star san, just like you were. Like, spending a good 10 minutes with a sponge and/or a carboy brush, for each vessel I tried to "clean". Star San does not clean! Just because something "looks" clean doesn't mean it's clean. PBW completely removes things on the microscopic level that you don't see! If you read my post I got away with doing that for the first few brews, but it will catch up with you after you keep reusing the same vessel that hasn't got a good, warm, oxygen-cleaner soak!

Secondly, it is just as important how the keg is handled once all of the cleaning, sanitizing and rinsing has been completed. How is the keg dried and then stored?

I honestly don't fret about storage. I just throw all PBW cleaned and rinsed (but not sanitized) things in my closet. When it's time for brew day, I will re-clean it again with PBW (usually not a soak this time, but a simple wipe down followed by a hot water rinse) and then fill it all with Star San and go about my brew day. I basically clean things twice, and I don't have any problem doing that because it assures I will not have infections.

The only problem with what you're doing is you're not really "cleaning". You're going through the motions of "cleaning", but you are not using a cleaner to clean.

The fact that you are "scrubbing" is proof of this. With PBW, there is no "scrubbing", only "wiping". That tells you it's a cleaner right away.

 

[kh54s10]

And why would anyone stick a spoon into finished beer? They wouldn't. They would use a spoon in a brew kettle while boiling. If you stick an unsanitized spoon into beer at any point when it is in the fermenter then you should not be brewing....

I was noting that you do use tools in the beer AFTER the boil.

 

[RPh_Guy]

And second, bacteria needs moisture to survive. The keg being completely dry prevents bacteria from existing in the keg as it can not live on a dry surface for any amount of time. That is the science.

Also nobody here has produced a single bit of evidence that bacteria can survive on a dry surface for more than a few days. If you have that evidence then post it up for all to see. Just saying. It's easy to make a claim but harder to actually back it up.

I'm sorry you haven't heard of dry yeast cultures, dry bacteria cultures, probiotic pills, or kveik.
Dry microbes can be viable for months or years.

That's the science.

 

[kh54s10]

Exactly. And bacteria is everywhere.

Also nobody here has produced a single bit of evidence that bacteria can survive on a dry surface for more than a few days. If you have that evidence then post it up for all to see. Just saying. It's easy to make a claim but harder to actually back it up.

So you believe that a dry surface will only get bacteria on it once?? And then it will die and there will be no more??

Just because it is dry and the initial bacteria on it might die, doesn't mean that there is no live bacteria present. What does die will be constantly replaced.

Yes your upside down or sealed keg is not going to be contaminated on the inside. But anything that is not sealed will not stay sanitary.

 

[ncbrewer]

I don't sweat the small stuff. In Russian roulette someone could get their head blown off. If something happened to one of my batches I might lose 5 gallons of beer and have to start over.

This might be the key to the disagreement. If you're not too worried about a contaminated batch, you can be more laid back. I had a contamination once. It lasted through some future batches as I tried various cleaning/sanitizing methods. I hated life for several months. So to me, life is more enjoyable if I sweat the small stuff and take every precaution possible to keep things clean and sanitized.