Would it be okay to remove the hops that are in my hop spider at some point before the boil is complete? Have the hops given all they will give at some point where it would be okay to dump the hop gunk out of the spider before adding my late additions?
Okay to remove 60 min hops from boil at 20 min?
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Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
I think it's ok. Most of the oils and alpha-acids will already be out of the hops by then, but the boil will continue to isomerise the alpha-acids. I've done it and it worked, but haven't tried a side-by-side with and without removing at 20mins to see if there is a real difference, so can't say definitively. Sounds like a good exbeeriment!
Thanks for the advice. I will give it a try this weekend.
I've gone to only doing a 30 minute boil with the hops in the wort. It seems to work fine. I've read the 90% of the bittering happens in that 30 minutes.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
There have been a couple of recent podcasts (Master Brewers #123, Basic Brewing Radio November 1, 2018) that support this (links available on request).
Drifting way off topic
, but ... ... do we 'need' to boil (some) hops longer (say 30 minutes vs 15 minutes) to remove undesired flavors / aromas?
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
My last 2 beers I skipped 60 minute altogether and added my bittering hops a 5 minutes and the rest at 150. I dont think the beer tastes less bitter. If anything it thinks it taste more balanced and smoother. I've also dropped my boil to 30 minutes with no ill effect.
Just to confirm for newer brewers, you mean at 150 degrees Fahrenheit while chilling, correct?
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
correct...except not WHILE chilling...Chill to 150, stop the chiller add hops for 45 minute steep while the temp naturally drops over the 45 minute period
Driven by these experiment I mix all hops from recipe and put it in 60 minutes hopstand on 85'C with occasional strong whirlpool and make great APA with, in my opinion, more bitterness and aroma compared to the original recipe.
In addition, the beer was not boil at all (kettle heater problem) but picked up hot breaks as soon as the wort reached 93'C.
I do not think she will have shelf life like boiled for 60 minutes, but it will be consume for less than two months anyway.
This is this beer (gelatin fining without cold crash):
In addition, the beer was not boil at all (kettle heater problem) but picked up hot breaks as soon as the wort reached 93'C.
I do not think she will have shelf life like boiled for 60 minutes, but it will be consume for less than two months anyway.
This is this beer (gelatin fining without cold crash):
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
For me, Kettle Hop vs. Hop Stand is more interesting from a process and estimation perspective than from a test tasting perspective. It looks like their hop stand started at ~212 and ended at 190 after 23 minutes. And the lab measured IBUs matched the estimated IBUs pretty closely.
Basic Brewing Radio's "Hop Sampler" for SMaSH-ish beers is similar. A 30 minute 'hop stand' where the temperature goes from 210 to around 155 (3-7-19 episode between 33:30 & 34:30). This episode also contains some lab measured IBUs for the beers that they sampled.
There are a couple of recent podcast eposodes (Master Brewers #123 & BBR 11-1-18) that talk about how quickly pellet hops "get to work".
Basic Brewing Radio's "Hop Sampler" for SMaSH-ish beers is similar. A 30 minute 'hop stand' where the temperature goes from 210 to around 155 (3-7-19 episode between 33:30 & 34:30). This episode also contains some lab measured IBUs for the beers that they sampled.
There are a couple of recent podcast eposodes (Master Brewers #123 & BBR 11-1-18) that talk about how quickly pellet hops "get to work".
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
The hops don't know that you've got 20 minutes more to boil - all they "know" is that they've been boiled for 60-20 = 40 minutes. And that will reduce your hop utilisation, from around 95% of the theoretical maximum bitterness at 60 minutes to around 70% at 40 minutes.
So if you're happy with 70/95 of your intended bitterness, or are prepared to add 36% more hops to compensate for the lower utilisation, then go for it.
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
But it's not the hops themselves that need to be boiled for the intended duration, it's the alpha acids (to allow isomerisation). So, the question is, are the alpha acids all/mostly removed from the hops in the 40 minutes? If so, isomerisation continues for the 20 minutes after the hops are removed. If not (if alpha acid removal from the hops is a function of time) then you'd only get the bitterness of a 40 minute addition. I suspect the former, but don't have any evidence.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Non-isomerised alpha acids are not very soluble, whereas isomerised alpha acids are soluble, so it's not the case that non-isomerised alpha acids are "washed off" the hops allowing the hops to be removed.
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
The solubility of non-isomerised alpha acids at boiling temperatures is really poorly known. I still suspect that we'd notice no difference between removing after 40 mins and leaving for the duration. Between the hop matter left in the kettle (the fine particles that escape out of the hop spider) and the alpha acids that are left, I'd expect a beer with the hops removed to have a bitterness more like a 60 minute addition than a 40 minute addition. I guess it would take a bit of experimenting to find out.
