Off taste

[jtrux]

Nearly every beer I make has a faint off flavor hard to describe but kind of like stale bread. Is this what people refer to as extract twang? I am careful during the boil to only gently stir to avoid oxidation. I quickly cool to pitching temp after boil with an immersion chiller and ice water circulating through it. Transfer to glass carboy, give 30 second blast of pure o2. Pitch 2 rehydrated packs of US-05. Ferment for 21 days even though blowoff tube stops burping at day 8-10. Fermented at 65f. Day before kegging I put cane suger in glass jar with vodka (just enough vodka to cover the suger) and let sit overnight. Pour mixture into keg, carefully transfer beer to keg with auto siphon. Tube all the way to bottom of keg to avoid splashing/oxidation. Seal keg and purge with co2 2-3 times then set 30psi to set the seals. Then leave sealed in keg for 2-3 weeks.

Trying to determine if it’s caused by old DME from my LHBS or if it’s caused by my technique.

The only recent batch I’ve made that didn’t have the off flavor was a kit from Williams Brewing. But it finished with a high fg 1.028 (target level) so I don’t know if it was there but masked by the heavier flavor or if it wasn’t there at all

 

[Jag75]

Just curious but do you need 2 packs of dry yeast ?

Maybe it's the sugar and vodka. Have you tried not using it and just force carbing for a few days ?

What kind of beer was it . Kinda sounds like slight oxidation but not sure . If I were you I'd be doing closed transfers . Fill with starsan and water then push out to a different keg , the transfer . Oxygen free . You have kegs and co2 so I would use it to your advantage.

 

[RM-MN]

Things to try.
1. Only use 1/4 of the extract at the start of the boil. It's really hard to get extract to mix well and it is possible that the extract is sinking to the bottom and scorching a little due to its much higher density than the water it is added to. At the end of the boil, turn off the heat, then add the remainder of the extract, stirring it well. If you only stir gently it will all sink to the bottom.
2. You are probably giving the wort too much oxygen. The dry yeast doesn't need any. It doesn't even need rehydrating according to one of the largest manufacturers. Unless this was a very high gravity beer, it doesn't need 2 packs either. No oxygenation, no rehydrating, and only one pack of yeast.
3. Yeast needs the temperature controlled while it is eating the easy sugars. Once the fermentation slows down, usually by day 4 or 5, warm the beer to the low 70's so the yeast consume the byproducts of fermentation. By day 10 the beer should be fairly clear. You can use your hydrometer to verify that fermentation is over and bottle at any time after you have verified that it is done.
4. Your beer needs a clean key to be put into. Wash it, rinse it, use a no-rinse sanitizer, then transfer the beer to it and hit it with CO2. No sugar, no vodka. Leave it sealed at room temp for a week or two before cooling to serving temp.

 

[IslandLizard]

stale bread

That sounds like oxidation. But could be a mixture of things.

Good advice already given above.

Are you only using your brew shop's DME? Nothing else?
Does it come in manufacturer sealed plastic bags with LD Carlson on it or so?
Or are they repackaged by your local homebrew shop?
Do you steep grain?
Why add the sugar and vodka?
Does the keg carbonate in your keezer/kegerator or at room temps?
What do samples taste like before you keg it?
Do you take samples often?

Have others tried your beer? What do they say? Is there a brew club around, or a brewery to get some feedback?

 

[jtrux]

Thanks for the suggestions. The recipe was a pale ale. 4oz 60l crystal malt steeped in 1/2 gallon @150f for 30 min. Then add water to 5 gallons 4lbs extra light DME @60min. 1oz cascade 60min. 1/2 oz perle 15min, 1 tsp Irish moss 15min. 1 oz cascade @1 min. 3lbs extra light DME @1min. Add 1 gallon cold water along with immersion chiller to bring temp down. Dry hop 1 oz cascade @ 7 days into fermentation.

Next batch I will try force carbing and see what happens.

The DME used was sealed from LHBS. Not repacked. I did steep grains
The keg carbonated at 70f in a fermentation chamber (freezer with temp controller).

Others like my beer but they are friends and not looking for off flavors.

 

[IslandLizard]

Are you using tap water? Do you treat it?
If municipal water, chances are there is Chlorine (or Chloramine) in it. They can play havoc with beer flavor.

 

[jtrux]

Are you using tap water? Do you treat it?
If municipal water, chances are there is Chlorine (or Chloramine) in it. They can play havoc with beer flavor.

Used distilled water.

 

[IslandLizard]

What was different in the William's kit ingredient-wise from your local ones? Did they contain a different extract? Different yeast?
Why did it finish at 1.028? That's crazy high unless it's a HG ale like a Barleywine.

US-05 has a very detectable flavor not everyone likes. Think Sierra Nevada.

 

[jtrux]

What was different in the William's kit ingredient-wise from your local ones? Did they contain a different extract? Different yeast?
Why did it finish at 1.028? That's crazy high unless it's a HG ale like a Barleywine.

US-05 has a very detectable flavor not everyone likes. Think Sierra Nevada.

This is the Williams kit
https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Fireside-Ale-Home-Brewing-Beer-Kit-P698.aspx

Main differences are LME vs DME and liquid yeast vs dry yeast.

Can the freshness of the extract cause the off flavor? Although I didn’t think that was as much of an issue with DME.

Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[IslandLizard]

This is the Williams kit
https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Fireside-Ale-Home-Brewing-Beer-Kit-P698.aspx

Main differences are LME vs DME and liquid yeast vs dry yeast.

Can the freshness of the extract cause the off flavor? Although I didn’t think that was as much of an issue with DME.

DME is much more stable than LME. LME doesn't age well, but most depends on how it's packaged and stored. When fresh it's as good as DME. Williams apparently uses a 'house blend' of LME for that recipe, possibly with a large percentage of Maris Otter extract, which makes it taste bready and complex.

I couldn't find which yeast they use, but it's a WYeast strain (smack pack). The instructions, IMO, are the pitts. Leaving smacked yeast on the counter for 3-5 days? No starter? <ugh>.
Now an FG of 1.028 means something went wrong. Secondary perhaps? Underpitch? Not viable enough yeast? No aeration/oxygenation?

I'd brew again, using a different kind of yeast this time. Scrutinize your processes, paying extra attention to cleaning and sanitation, and prevent oxygen exposure except when pitching yeast.

There's a large variety of liquid yeasts around, but they really need a starter before pitching, regardless of what they claim. But it introduces another variable to the equation.

What beer have you been brewing that's been tasting off? Recipe?

 

[jtrux]

DME is much more stable than LME. LME doesn't age well, but most depends on how it's packaged and stored. When fresh it's as good as DME. Williams apparently uses a 'house blend' of LME for that recipe, possibly with a large percentage of Maris Otter extract, which makes it taste bready and complex.

I couldn't find which yeast they use, but it's a WYeast strain (smack pack). The instructions, IMO, are the pitts. Leaving smacked yeast on the counter for 3-5 days? No starter? <ugh>.
Now an FG of 1.028 means something went wrong. Secondary perhaps? Underpitch? Not viable enough yeast? No aeration/oxygenation?

I'd brew again, using a different kind of yeast this time. Scrutinize your processes, paying extra attention to cleaning and sanitation, and prevent oxygen exposure except when pitching yeast.

There's a large variety of liquid yeasts around, but they really need a starter before pitching, regardless of what they claim. But it introduces another variable to the equation.

What beer have you been brewing that's been tasting off? Recipe?

It’s the pale ale recipe listed above.

Steep 4 oz crushed (in blender) 60L American crystal at 150f for 30 min in 1/2 gallon spring water

Add 5 gallons distilled water bring to boil
4 lbs DME @60min
1 oz cascade @60
1/2 perle @ 15
1 tsp Irish moss @ 15
1 oz cascade @1 min
3 lbs DME @1 min

OG 1.068
FG 1.011

Cool to pitching temp and pitch 2 packs us-05 (maybe pitching too much yeast. Just noticed mr malty was set to lager not ale. When I switched to ale it said 1.1 packs not 2).

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks! Sorry I did see it before, but it was in a paragraph not in a list I was looking for.

I'm still leaning toward oxidation, possibly yeast strain (more remote). Overpitching by only 2x shouldn't have a pronounced effect.

3 headspace purges at 30 psi is not sufficient. You need at least 5 purges, 10 is better, and still leaves quite a bit of O2 in there.
Those 2-3 weeks at 70F in the keg with your vodka sugar syrup is not standard, so I'd skip that next time.

Instead, cold crash, rack, or better, fill through the liquid QD/post into a 100% liquid pre-purged keg. Then force carbonate @30psi (roll for 10'), vent off excess and let sit for 2 days at 12 psi in the keezer. Let's see if that tastes better. You'll get perfect pours after 3-7 days.

 

[Jag75]

Everytime I've done extract kits it's called for steeping between 150 and 165 if I recall. And I dont know how you can steep in 1/2 gallon of water . I usually steep in 2-3 gallons for the time on recipe then bring up to a boil and add the LME or DME . The boil stops and I stir until the boil starts and go through hop additions . Then I top off with cool RO water so that way it cools down to pitch temp faster . I use the immersion with ice water via pump as well . The thing I'm really curious is if you toss in grain at 150 its gonna drop, especially in 1/2 gallon . Does steeping to low or to high of temp cause tannins ?

 

[IslandLizard]

Everytime I've done extract kits it's called for steeping between 150 and 165 if I recall. And I dont know how you can steep in 1/2 gallon of water . I usually steep in 2-3 gallons for the time on recipe then bring up to a boil and add the LME or DME . The boil stops and I stir until the boil starts and go through hop additions . Then I top off with cool RO water so that way it cools down to pitch temp faster . I use the immersion with ice water via pump as well . The thing I'm really curious is if you toss in grain at 150 its gonna drop, especially in 1/2 gallon . Does steeping to low or to high of temp cause tannins ?

He's only using 4 oz of crystal malt, 1/2 a gallon of water for steeping that is plenty. A sparge is recommended to rinse more goodness from the bag.

Steep in too little water, extraction efficiency will certainly suffer, and good sparging becomes more important. Just don't oversparge, as the pH may rise and starts extracting tannins.

Mini mashes (partial mashes) are such a small step up from steeping, I always wonder why not many more extract brewers do them. You can easily double the number of recipes you can brew. Mash in pot or kettle placed into a preheated, turned off oven.

When steeping grains the temp should not exceed 170F, but any lower temp is fine, it just may take longer. 150-155F is about the lower limit for steeping before it takes a toll on the time required. Some brewers cold steep (roasted) grains overnight.

Now pH is actually much more important than temperature to limit tannin extraction. pH should remain under 6.8 to prevent extracting excessive tannins. If both the pH AND the temp are higher than those limits, tannin extraction will increase a lot. It's more going to taste like sucking on a teabag.

Using very soft, RO, or distilled water, all low in or devoid of alkalinity and minerals, will keep the pH under 6.8 since all malts will acidify water to some degree. Alkalinity buffers that, counteracting proper acidification. Or acidify your water a little so it drops to pH 6.8. The steeping malts will add the rest.

So yes, dropping room temp grains in 150F water will lower its temp. Letting it stand for 30 minutes lowers it more. If you steep in 3 gallons, there is more mass to keep temps higher. But malt acidification is lower (it's more diluted).

 

[Jag75]

Nicely put @IslandLizard
pre heated oven is a really good idea!

 

[jtrux]

Everytime I've done extract kits it's called for steeping between 150 and 165 if I recall. And I dont know how you can steep in 1/2 gallon of water . I usually steep in 2-3 gallons for the time on recipe then bring up to a boil and add the LME or DME . The boil stops and I stir until the boil starts and go through hop additions . Then I top off with cool RO water so that way it cools down to pitch temp faster . I use the immersion with ice water via pump as well . The thing I'm really curious is if you toss in grain at 150 its gonna drop, especially in 1/2 gallon . Does steeping to low or to high of temp cause tannins ?

I use a small stainless sauce pot heated to 155, drop grains in. It settles at 150-152. I also kick on the stove every now and again to maintain the 150 for 30 min. Then pour this in my brew pot with the additional 5 gallons distilled water.

 

[jtrux]

Thank y’all for all the suggestions.