Notre Dame

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Gadjobrinus

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Hello mods - I hope it's OK here. I just wanted to express some pretty strong feelings to any French brewer here, on the deep tragedy of Notre Dame's almost total loss. Though it was built in the 12th century, the island it stands on - Île de la Cité - is literally the historical center of French national life. The Parisii were there when Caesar was waging his gallic war against the incredibly valiant, brilliant and, against all odds for well past its time given Caesar's raw strength, indomitable tribal chieftain and first French statesman, the Unifier, Vercingetorix.

*******

À tous les gens Français: mon cœur se brise avec vous. Je connais l’importance de cette belle cathédrale dans votre vie nationale, que ce soit des Catholiques ou non. Je sais qu’il a peut-être été construit il y a 800 ans, mais il se dresse sur une île remontant au moins au Parisii, et la vaillante lutte de Vercingetorix contre les envahisseurs de César. J’aime votre peuple, je porte votre sang à cause de ma mère, et je vous souhaite une force durable dans le temps à venir.
 
Even as a non-religious non-French person, it's such a beautiful, iconic structure with such deep history. I visited last year during a trip to Paris and Brussels and it was absolutely breathtaking.

It sounds like little beyond the towers and shell could be saved.
 
It will be re-built, I heard they already stripped off some of the carvings for the current renovation and everything has been well documented. In 20 years no one will know the fire happened.
 
Oof. I did not see this in the news until I saw this post (and I'm a news junky :) ). I'm a little shocked.

That small island on which is stands was the tribal center of paris - it's where the city began. I've walked past it so many times, really taking it for granted (I was usually on my way to Champs Elysee). I spent a year in Paris.

I suggest anyone who has a fascination with large cathedrals, Notre Dame being prototypical, should read Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follet. It's a fantastic book and you'll be an expert in cathedral architecture in the end. (very long book)
 
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Oof. I did not see this in the news until I saw this post (and I'm a news junky :) ). I'm a little shocked.

That small island on which is stands was the tribal center of paris - it's where the city began. I've walked past it so many times, really taking it for granted (I was usually on my way to Champs Elysee). I spent a year in Paris.

I suggest anyone who has a fascination with large cathedrals, Notre Dame being prototypical, should read Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follet. It's a fantastic book and you'll be an expert in the architecture in the end.

Nice tribute, Andrew. And oh my god, that is a fantastic book. The CFO of Goose Island at the time turned me on to it. I had no idea about the lineage of the designer-builder until reading this book. Fantastic, agreed.

Tribes - yep, I mention them above (in the french section), the Parisii. It's impossible to put into words this loss - but I'm not even french (though strongly french-blooded on my mom's sign) - but yep, with you, I have a deep feel for the fact that this is where Paris began and, ultimately, this is where the center of France began.

It's a terrible thing to see these monuments perish in our lifetime. When the pyramids? Tower of Pisa? I always wonder because though they seem eternal, like Rome's great monuments dotted around the Mediterranean, now rubble, these works of our species' history will fall.

And we have one of the greatest, in our lifetimes. Just devastated for the French People, and for all of us.
 
Even as a non-religious non-French person, it's such a beautiful, iconic structure with such deep history. I visited last year during a trip to Paris and Brussels and it was absolutely breathtaking.

It sounds like little beyond the towers and shell could be saved.

Yep, towers and structure. The supporting timber everywhere obviously destroyed, but somehow the structure (and the towers like you said), are holding. That's an amazing piece of luck. Though I have to admit my sadness that even if it is rebuilt beautifully, the whispers of history it held are now gone.
 
It's been rebuilt before, has it not?

That's a great question, Qhrumphf, and I actually don't know. Much like St. Paul's in London, it astounds me Notre Dame survived first the French Revolution, with its massive vengeance on all things clerical, then WWI and WWII. (I don't know if Notre Dame was ever in danger with the 1870 Prussian War). That seems almost impossible to me, but there it is, a historical, happy accident. God, until today. Then a conflagration and centuries wiped out in so little time.
 
Some cursory research, it's had some iconography/artwork/statues damaged/destroyed (Huguenots and then during the French Revolution), but the structure itself has been alterations, restoration, and repairs. Somehow in 800 years, nothing of this scale.
 
Some cursory research, it's had some iconography/artwork/statues damaged/destroyed (Huguenots and then during the French Revolution), but the structure itself has been alterations, restoration, and repairs. Somehow in 800 years, nothing of this scale.

My understanding was the artwork and iconography got really hammered during the Revolution, as all over France (except the Vendée maybe), and I seem to recall them talking about that in one of the channels. But even then, theft and destruction, if I heard it right, was little compared to other religious statuary in other cathedrals, etc. Maybe they, too, held it as a national treasure.

That's interesting about the Huguenots. Didn't even come up on my radar but that makes sense, especially if it was in reprisal for St. Bartholomew's Day. Do you happen to know the timing on that? More reading.

Still stunned. The stupidity of one of Napoleon's troops firing off the nose of the Sphinx, the mindless destruction of the Great Buddha by the Taliban. We never get these back and that rips a hole in all of us.

Thanks for posting everyone.
 
I've heard others reference it, and the Wikipedia article on the cathedral mentions it as well. I didn't dig further and I'm not enough a student of history to know more on my own.
 
That's a great question, Qhrumphf, and I actually don't know. Much like St. Paul's in London, it astounds me Notre Dame survived first the French Revolution, with its massive vengeance on all things clerical, then WWI and WWII. (I don't know if Notre Dame was ever in danger with the 1870 Prussian War). That seems almost impossible to me, but there it is, a historical, happy accident. God, until today. Then a conflagration and centuries wiped out in so little time.

If you've seen the 3rd Reich marching under the arch de triumph during WWII and wondered why the french didn't stop the Germans from reaching Paris, the answer is simple: the french could not accept the bombing of Paris, and would rather fall back and let it be occupied (and saved). The germans had obliterated similar cities.

I used to be very critical of the French lack of resistance until I learned that. They valued their cultural legacy so much that they were willing to take this gamble. Ultimately, they made the right bet (thanks in no small part to a burgeoning force from the west coming to their aid through Normandy).
 
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If you've seen the 3rd Reich marching under the arch de triumph after WWII and wondered why the french didn't stop the Germans from reaching Paris, the answer is simple: the french could not accept the bombing of Paris, and would rather fall back and let it be occupied (and saved). The germans had obliterated similar cities.

I used to be very critical of the French lack of resistance until I learned that. They valued their cultural legacy so much that they were willing to take this gamble. Ultimately, they made the right bet (thanks in no small part to a burgeoning force from the west coming to their aid through Normandy).

That's very interesting, Andrew, I wasn't aware of that. In addition to that, my pet theory has always been the French played by their WWI playbook, trying to force the Germans through a narrow corridor through Belgium, where they'd be met by superior French forces. No one in the world, in my opinion, was ready for blitzkrieg and the ridiculous mobility of the German army. No one (including Ike) would have thought Germany would mount a panzer offensive not 1, not 2, but 3 times through the Ardennes. Insane. So the entire allied Battle Plan was obliterated, literally. Germany swung north, isolated the British, and hammered the French.

I think the French fought valiantly and paid a terrible price. They just got outfoxed. In terms of the miracle of Dunkirk, it's not often talked about that a good many French military stayed behind strictly as human roadblocks, basically, to give as much time as possible to the evacuation. They knew what that meant. I think it's about just over 15,000 French soldiers and somewhere around 1000 British soldiers who were killed in the evacuation. The men of both nations were heroes on that day.

No one wanted the war, just what Hitler banked on and he was right. For France, I'd probably toss in the fact they suffered defeat at German hands with the 1870 war, the final war of German unification. It is much lost to history but it was a terrible, terrible war. Paris starved. Rats, dogs, cats, even animals from the Paris zoo were consumed. I have a book somewhere but I can't recall it's name. Paris During the Siege? B/W photos say it all.

Anyway, sorry for the length but that's my take. Thank you for the perspective on preserving national treasures. I would like to look into this.

Speaking of this, regarding Paris, do you guys know of Hitler's command to obliterate Paris? He ordered the German Governor-General, von Choltitz, to raze the city to the ground in advance of allied arrival, before evacuating the city. He wanted nothing left. About a week later, hearing reports, Hitler called von Choltitz in a customary fit and screamed the famous "Is Paris Burning?!!!" von Choltitz, I think, bravely, disobeyed Hitler's order and the city was saved. von Choltitz admired the French people, and loved the city. He also knew it was any day for the allied arrival, and the not inconsequential fact der fuehrer was batsh!t crazy.

There is controversy whether he was or wasn't involved in the liquidation of Jews. As a staff officer, it's very likely he was. Anyone watch Hogan's Heroes? LeBeau? He has tattoos on his arms and talks mournfully still of that time. Hard to square a General who had the courage and character to refuse to destroy one of the West's greatest cities, who also sent countless innocents to their deaths.
 
I used to be very critical of the French lack of resistance until I learned that. They valued their cultural legacy so much that they were willing to take this gamble. Ultimately, they made the right bet
Made the right bet? The Germans started rounding up Jews and shipping them off to concentration camps as soon as the ink was dry on the surrender papers. The Germans also sought out German Jewish refugees that had fled the Nazis in the 1930's.
The French police aided the Germans in this effort.
The relatively easy victory in France led to further Nazi conquests including the invasion of Russia which led to an estimated 20 million civilian and military casualties.
The French "Vichy" Government opposed Allied landings in North Africa, causing needless casualties.
On June 6 1944, "A "company of the 116th Infantry, 29th Division was in the first wave of the landings on Omaha beach. In 30 minutes, 2/3 of the men were casualties, mostly dead and dying including all the officers and sergeants.
No one that landed on Omaha beach on D-day would agree that the French "made the right bet" by surrendering to the Nazis in 1940.
I could go on with many more examples, but I think its better to agree to disagree about your statement.
 
From some of the photos on the BBC, most of the stone vaulted ceiling survived, with a partial collapse above the crossing, directly under the spire. If that is the case, the most of the interior should be intact and while the vault will have to be examined and rebuilt where it collapsed or is weakened, it isn't a total loss like Coventry cathedral was.
 
Made the right bet? The Germans started rounding up Jews and shipping them off to concentration camps as soon as the ink was dry on the surrender papers. The Germans also sought out German Jewish refugees that had fled the Nazis in the 1930's.
The French police aided the Germans in this effort.
The relatively easy victory in France led to further Nazi conquests including the invasion of Russia which led to an estimated 20 million civilian and military casualties.
The French "Vichy" Government opposed Allied landings in North Africa, causing needless casualties.
On June 6 1944, "A "company of the 116th Infantry, 29th Division was in the first wave of the landings on Omaha beach. In 30 minutes, 2/3 of the men were casualties, mostly dead and dying including all the officers and sergeants.
No one that landed on Omaha beach on D-day would agree that the French "made the right bet" by surrendering to the Nazis in 1940.
I could go on with many more examples, but I think its better to agree to disagree about your statement.

I was referring to saving the architecture of Paris (which is the topic here). I thought I was clear on that.
 
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