Not getting that juicy hop "pop" in my IPA's

[zippyclown]

The IPA's I'm making don't have that juicy taste or aroma no matter what I do. The hops just always come across muted. My process is nailed down, from controlling temps, to sanitation, to everything in between. So yes I think it's my water.

After reading the water "sticky" and various other recommendations, I bought 10 gallons of spring water (poland springs). I added 2 teaspoons of gypsum and 2 teaspoons calcium chloride. 2% sauermalz as well, because what the hell.

I had a cleaner tasting IPA for sure. It tasted fine. No off flavors, etc. But still very muted hops despite a 3 oz flameout addition & hopstand that lasted 45 mins. I was expecting that "in your face" character.

Here's the water analysis for the spring water I started with . Any ideas about what might be happening? I'd really like to finally get over this dumb hump.

Page 4:
http://www.nestle-watersna.com/asset-library/documents/ps_eng.pdf

 

[theheroguy]

You need to provide the full recipe including hop varieties. Mash PH and also final beer ph would be nice. You water seems fine I know that Stone says they use a water profile that would be considered way too soft by most in the industry.

EDIT
For what its worth I do a hopstand for 30 min starting at 180 F and this gives my beers lot of hop flavor but not the bright in your face notes. For that you need to dry hop. Both of those combined make a great IPA.

 

[zippyclown]

You need to provide the full recipe including hop varieties. Mash PH and also final beer ph would be nice. You water seems fine I know that Stone says they use a water profile that would be considered way too soft by most in the industry.

Good point as I wasn't sure that would play into it as much as the water profile, but:

Total grain 13.77lb
This was a 6 gallon batch starting with 10-ish gallons of spring water

80% pale 2-row
7.26% flaked oats
6.54% cara-pils
4.53% c-10
2.18% sauermalz

edit: OG 1.060 / FG 1.009

Yeast us-05

Hops are Citra, Chinook, Centennial in equal doses at 10 mins and flameout. 0.3oz summit at 60 mins. 3 oz of each (EDIT: 1oz each for 3 oz) again for dry hopping (7 days)

PH I don't currently measure.

zc

 

[TechyDork]

Can you post your recipe? That might help us help you.

3 oz at flameout is a nice addition, but i think some people do quite a bit more than that to get that character.

did you dry hop at all? a good dry hop will also help bring out that in your face hop character.

I have also found, and read, that using some wheat malt in place of some of the base malt helps bring out that juicy quality.

yeast can contribute to this as well.

Post up your recipe and maybe we can help you out.

 

[theheroguy]

So one of the main reason for managing water is to get an appropriate mash PH. I did a rough estimate of you mash ph on brewers friend ( I had to guess the water amount and amount of grain). I think it should be within range but honestly I have no real good idea. I would recommend completely dropping the carapils because the oats and c10 give you all the body booster you need but that is a different story. Double your dry hop addition for each and do it for only 4 days. If you bottle like I do and can't purge your bottles for O2 then you need an absolutely huge ridiculous dry hop additions because you're going to lose a ton of aroma and flavor due to oxygen exposure.

 

[zippyclown]

So one of the main reason for managing water is to get an appropriate mash PH. I did a rough estimate of you mash ph on brewers friend ( I had to guess the water amount and amount of grain). I think it should be within range but honestly I have no real good idea. I would recommend completely dropping the carapils because the oats and c10 give you all the body booster you need but that is a different story. Double your dry hop addition for each and do it for only 4 days. If you bottle like I do and can't purge your bottles for O2 then you need an absolutely huge ridiculous dry hop additions because you're going to lose a ton of aroma and flavor due to oxygen exposure.

Total grain 13.77lb
This was a 6 gallon batch starting with 10 gallons

Believe it or not I kegged half and bottled half. No difference either way!

So you're thinking I just need more dry hopping? Seems entirely possible, I guess...

zc

 

[jekeane]

I get noticeably more aroma from doing a hop stand after flameout. 30 minutes @ 180° is what I have been doing. I generally have a 60m bittering addition of magnum a small 10-15m addition and then save everything for a hop stand and dry hopping. I have had similar results with and without whirlpooling during my hopstand.

 

[Calichusetts]

A few issues here:

I'm using more hops in my 3.5 gallon recipes than you are with your 6. If you want in-your-face, you need to up the amounts. My latest 3.5 gallon barleywine had a 3 oz flameout addition and I expect it to be very subtle at best. At least for my palate.

Double dry hop. Avoid oxygen if you can.

Cold crash BEFORE dry hopping. I can't explain it (possibly the yeast binding to oils and dropping out) but my hoppiest beers all had pre-dry hop cold crashes.

Keg hop as well. A few recent batches of my DIPAs were insanely hoppy. You could smell it across the room. After a week or so, while still hoppy, it would hardly compete with any top commercial example. Try adding an ounce or so to your keg in those little tea balls you can get online. Fixed it for me.

Whirlpools are all the rage lately and I'm sure they work. But I've never needed it. Some of hoppiest beers have had a flameout addition, then I simply go and prep for fermentation (10-15) minutes, chill and pitch. I guess that counts as a hop stand but I don't consider it. Something that really did help me was small additions from 20 minutes to flameout, usually every 5 minutes. Flavor is important when considering aroma.

Final point, hop crop. We don't get the best of the best like most commercials do. We also don't have access to their equipment or techniques. We can mimic some of it but it makes it harder to match commercial examples. Especially the best IPAs, or at least the most hoppy. I distinctly remember 2012 to be the best year I ever had with hoppy beers. I figure that year, homebrewers simply got better access to better hops. At least the ones I bought. Several harvest in a row have dissapointed me with certain hop strains. Just something to consider

 

[Callacave]

Final point, hop crop. We don't get the best of the best like most commercials do. We also don't have access to their equipment or techniques. We can mimic some of it but it makes it harder to match commercial examples. Especially the best IPAs, or at least the most hoppy. I distinctly remember 2012 to be the best year I ever had with hoppy beers. I figure that year, homebrewers simply got better access to better hops. At least the ones I bought. Several harvest in a row have dissapointed me with certain hop strains. Just something to consider

This is a really good point, and besides all of the other great recommendations that were already given in this thread, sometimes the one overlooked thing is the actual hops themselves. How old are they? How do you store them? (vacuum sealed and in the freezer?) Do they smell great? This is where a lot of the commercial guys have an advantage over us.

 

[Mexibilly]

I've been doing a 60 minute 1.5oz chinook
Then .5oz each, last one was centennial and cascade, at 30, 20, 15, 10, 5 and 0, steep for 20 minutes.
Ferment about a week and dry hop 1.5oz each for about a week.
This one is an orangey citrus bomb. Huge aroma and huge flavor.
I'd advise more late additions and a big dry hop 5 - 7 days before keg or bottle

Edit: As for water, I like the RO water from Kroger. Mash Ph comes in at about 5.4 with the light grain bill. And rehydrated US 05.
The one in the keg now is version 3 of this recipe and it just keeps getting better.
Version 4, tweaked again for more grapefruit and darker color, is in beersmith and my LHBS online shopping cart is full and ready for payment as soon as my wife gives me my allowance

 

[pvpeacock]

For a real "juicy" hop IPA, I like to make hop tea in a french press and just pour it into the carbonated keg. I use from 1 - 3 oz., let it sit in the french press with 150 degree water for an hour, press and pour. Works great. Also when the hop aroma/flavor starts to fade over time, I just make up a new batch of hop tea and pour more into the keg.

 

[m00ps]

I agree with those that have pointed to the hop schedule and amounts being the issue. If you truly want an "in your face" hop character, those amounts aren't going to cut it

 

[RustyHorn]

I like to make hop tea in a french press and just pour it into the carbonated keg.

Do you call a 'cafetiere' a French press?!
How sweet :-D

 

[troxerX]

Not sure what's the latest in this conversation but wanted to give some suggestions for juicy IPAs:

1) avoid hopstanding at all cost! many wc purist hopheads will argue this but from my experience it will leach too much bitterness, chill beer quickly and get it into the fermentor ASAP -- some will say that you need to boil to extract alfa acids -- if that's true, place a couple hop pellets in a cup with room temp water and drink from it , you'll understand

2) for hazyness and juicyness use a grist with 85% golden promise and about 15% flaked wheat -- mash between 154 - 156F and do not exceed an OG of 1.074, use 1056, London Ale III or any other yeast with >75% attenuation, aim at a FG of NMT 1.012

3) start with distilled water and adjust for more CaCl than SO4 (around 2.5 tsp CaCl and 1.25 tsp gypsum for 4 gals of starting distilled) scale up for other volumes

4) stay with the following hops (any combinations) -- galaxy, mosaic, citra, bravo, simcoe or falconers flight

5) avoid hop additions on FWH, and anything prior to the last 10 min of boil, do not exceed 1 oz at 10 min, and do not exceed 2oz per gallon of wort for flameout, you will be surprised how a few ounces will take you a long way

6) do 3 dry hops, do the 1st dry hop at 3/4 a long the way of fermentation, the 2nd at the end of ferm and 3rd after ferm is over, do not exceed 4 days each dry hop, place hops in a double muslin bag with a weight and tie it with a string, let it drop into the beer and then pass the string between the stopper and fermentor, once the time is over for the dry hop pull the string to separate the hops from the beer and let it hang on the headspace (wrap the string on the carboy handle), repeat by adding a new bag with new hops three times (1 for each dry hop) this will help you dry hop and separate the beer from hops without the need to transfer/oxygenate the beer during each dry hop session

Do not exceed 1oz of dry hops per gallon of wort, if you do less amount of hops then let it sit for a longer period of time... juicyness is about malts, hops and water minerals, more hops does not means more juicyness -- avoid unnecessary bitterness at all cost

Cheers!

 

[beernutz]

I get my juiciest IPAs when I use all Citra for aroma, hop stand, and dry hop additions. The type of bittering hops doesn't matter so much. Also I initially put my dry hops in a cylindrical SS mesh container and agitate it several times per day, periodically adding more hops every few days over a 7 to 14 day period.

 

[bootlegnjack]

Not sure what's the latest in this conversation but wanted to give some suggestions for juicy IPAs:



1) avoid hopstanding at all cost! many wc purist hopheads will argue this but from my experience it will leach too much bitterness, chill beer quickly and get it into the fermentor ASAP -- some will say that you need to boil to extract alfa acids -- if that's true, place a couple hop pellets in a cup with room temp water and drink from it , you'll understand



2) for hazyness and juicyness use a grist with 85% golden promise and about 15% flaked wheat -- mash between 154 - 156F and do not exceed an OG of 1.074, use 1056, London Ale III or any other yeast with >75% attenuation, aim at a FG of NMT 1.012



3) start with distilled water and adjust for more CaCl than SO4 (around 2.5 tsp CaCl and 1.25 tsp gypsum for 4 gals of starting distilled) scale up for other volumes



4) stay with the following hops (any combinations) -- galaxy, mosaic, citra, bravo, simcoe or falconers flight



5) avoid hop additions on FWH, and anything prior to the last 10 min of boil, do not exceed 1 oz at 10 min, and do not exceed 2oz per gallon of wort for flameout, you will be surprised how a few ounces will take you a long way



6) do 3 dry hops, do the 1st dry hop at 3/4 a long the way of fermentation, the 2nd at the end of ferm and 3rd after ferm is over, do not exceed 4 days each dry hop, place hops in a double muslin bag with a weight and tie it with a string, let it drop into the beer and then pass the string between the stopper and fermentor, once the time is over for the dry hop pull the string to separate the hops from the beer and let it hang on the headspace (wrap the string on the carboy handle), repeat by adding a new bag with new hops three times (1 for each dry hop) this will help you dry hop and separate the beer from hops without the need to transfer/oxygenate the beer during each dry hop session



Do not exceed 1oz of dry hops per gallon of wort, if you do less amount of hops then let it sit for a longer period of time... juicyness is about malts, hops and water minerals, more hops does not means more juicyness -- avoid unnecessary bitterness at all cost



Cheers!

Sweet info, I've also had bad results and don't rate hopstands to be honest

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I agree with those that have pointed to the hop schedule and amounts being the issue. If you truly want an "in your face" hop character, those amounts aren't going to cut it

Eliminate chlorine and chloramine from your brewing water, increase the CaSO4, get the sulfate level between 200-300 and hop at a rate of 10 ounces or more per 5 gallons.

 

[Ozzy2001]

Agree with earlier to up the dry hop amount. I used 3 ozs in my last 2.5 gal batch and it's pineapple city . Just toss them in as the ferm is winding down for 4-5 days, crash and bottle/keg.

 

[GotPushrods]

3) start with distilled water and adjust for more CaCl than SO4 (around 2.5 tsp CaCl and 1.25 tsp gypsum for 4 gals of starting distilled) scale up for other volumes

I agree with all of this, although I'm wondering if this is a typo. Depending on who you believe for grams-to-tsp conversions, that's a metric butt-load of Ca and Cl.

I get roughly:
Ca: 230 ppm
Cl: 270 ppm
SO4: 184 ppm

Even if it's just mash and you're diluting with RO sparge water....

Is this in fact what you're brewing IPAs with?

 

[RichBenn]

So one of the main reason for managing water is to get an appropriate mash PH. I did a rough estimate of you mash ph on brewers friend ( I had to guess the water amount and amount of grain). I think it should be within range but honestly I have no real good idea. I would recommend completely dropping the carapils because the oats and c10 give you all the body booster you need but that is a different story. Double your dry hop addition for each and do it for only 4 days. If you bottle like I do and can't purge your bottles for O2 then you need an absolutely huge ridiculous dry hop additions because you're going to lose a ton of aroma and flavor due to oxygen exposure.

I also think u should drop the carapils. Not sure why the Sauermaltz either. If you want to control your water, use distilled or RO water with a spreadsheet.

To highlight hops, keep the total Crystal below 5%, like the Pliny brewer says.

 

[schatzke]

FWIW my IPAs get a small 60 min dose(usually around .5 oz depending on AA%) then 3-4 oz @ 5 min, 3-4 oz @ flameout, and another 3-4 oz dry hop, sometimes a 2nd dry hop of a couple of oz's. This is for a batch that results in 5 gal of finished beer. I love me some hop bombs but not the extreme bitter side.

 

[brewprint]

Not sure what's the latest in this conversation but wanted to give some suggestions for juicy IPAs:

1) avoid hopstanding at all cost! many wc purist hopheads will argue this but from my experience it will leach too much bitterness, chill beer quickly and get it into the fermentor ASAP -- some will say that you need to boil to extract alfa acids -- if that's true, place a couple hop pellets in a cup with room temp water and drink from it , you'll understand

2) for hazyness and juicyness use a grist with 85% golden promise and about 15% flaked wheat -- mash between 154 - 156F and do not exceed an OG of 1.074, use 1056, London Ale III or any other yeast with >75% attenuation, aim at a FG of NMT 1.012

3) start with distilled water and adjust for more CaCl than SO4 (around 2.5 tsp CaCl and 1.25 tsp gypsum for 4 gals of starting distilled) scale up for other volumes

4) stay with the following hops (any combinations) -- galaxy, mosaic, citra, bravo, simcoe or falconers flight

5) avoid hop additions on FWH, and anything prior to the last 10 min of boil, do not exceed 1 oz at 10 min, and do not exceed 2oz per gallon of wort for flameout, you will be surprised how a few ounces will take you a long way

6) do 3 dry hops, do the 1st dry hop at 3/4 a long the way of fermentation, the 2nd at the end of ferm and 3rd after ferm is over, do not exceed 4 days each dry hop, place hops in a double muslin bag with a weight and tie it with a string, let it drop into the beer and then pass the string between the stopper and fermentor, once the time is over for the dry hop pull the string to separate the hops from the beer and let it hang on the headspace (wrap the string on the carboy handle), repeat by adding a new bag with new hops three times (1 for each dry hop) this will help you dry hop and separate the beer from hops without the need to transfer/oxygenate the beer during each dry hop session

Do not exceed 1oz of dry hops per gallon of wort, if you do less amount of hops then let it sit for a longer period of time... juicyness is about malts, hops and water minerals, more hops does not means more juicyness -- avoid unnecessary bitterness at all cost

Cheers!

You're against hopstands/whirlpool say after the wort has cooled to 150F?

I've never done this. I've only done late additions and KO additions. My understanding is that if the wort is chilled that much then there will be no IBU extracted.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

Last batch I did was my first go at both whirlpool and keg hopping. There was plenty of hop aroma and flavors (citra and amarillo). I will eventually do a batch of beer that is only hopped with whirlpool hops and also a batch that is only kegged hopped.

Tis really helps me get flavor additions straight in my head, for future recipes. I've done FWH only, Late edition only, etc.

I'd say go and keg hop. So far the hop flavors have not gone bad, or grassy

 

[crusader1612]

I tell you what, there are some interesting comments on here, and they're all starkly different. from removing hopstandas to increasing hopstandas more dryhops more often and so on.

for me, its all personal preference, what works for others may not work for you, but i'll throw my 2 cents in.
your obviously looking for a NEIPA type beer.
so keep the grist simple
pale malt
wheat malt
flaked Oats
get to your desired OG.

FWH for smoother bitterness (smaller 60min charges work too)
then add most hops late - i'll leave it up to you if you add flameout hopstand hops.
big dryhops are key (that seems to be a consensus based on that other comments)

most NEIPA's tend to be using the new world hops rather than the "american classic"
so think Nelson Sauvin, Galaxy, Mosaic, Citra etc.

In regard to your existing grist.
i'd get rid of your C10 or carapils ( i hate too much crystal in bigger IPA's, they end up overly sweet and they hide the hops too much)

Also as a side note look at your fermentation, while your process and temps are good make sure your pitching rates are up to scratch, and you have healthy yeast, any issues with your yeast, and your hops disappear. almost completely.
especially if your using US-05 - US-05 can be pretty bad for things like diacetyl etc. especially if under pitching or not doing a D-Rest.
Like other said that juicy taste has somethingto do with the unique LA III (WY1318) or Conan yeasties. so consider that as well.

 

[Ike]

For a real "juicy" hop IPA, I like to make hop tea in a french press and just pour it into the carbonated keg. I use from 1 - 3 oz., let it sit in the french press with 150 degree water for an hour, press and pour. Works great. Also when the hop aroma/flavor starts to fade over time, I just make up a new batch of hop tea and pour more into the keg.

To the OP: this. I've made some AWESOME hop-forward but not-too-bitter brews with hop teas lately. I went down the same road as you: being disappointed by my hop recovery, adjusting water, trying dry hopping, trying hopstands... it all helped but the results from the tea addition at bottling/kegging have been night and day. My usual target temp and time is 160 for 30 mins instead of the 150/hr pvpeacock uses, but I really bet that doesn't make much difference.

@pvpeacock: you mention adding to the carbed keg. Is that on purpose? Did you try it when initially kegging and find you lost flavor/aroma during the carbing period? ALSO, how bad is the "boilover" tendency when adding the tea to a carbed keg?

THANKS!