Not getting enough carbonation

[crossmr]

Hello all,
I've started homebrewing root beer and ginger ale here in South Korea. Both are extremely hard to find, root beer is almost non-existent. Once in awhile there are some import A&W 12 packs, but that's it. Ginger ale only shows up in Canada dry or schweppes, but both inconsistently.

The problem I've had is carbonation.
I'm following this guide:

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/Cheese/ROOTBEER_Jn0.htm

I managed to get some Zatarains imported here.

The first thing I noticed is that my batch seemed to carbonate very quickly. On the surface. The bottle got extremely hard within a few hours. By the next morning it was almost like a rock. I made two bottles at once. So I tried one when at that point and it wasn't that carbonated. like a bottle of rootbeer that had been open 2-3 days. So I left the other one over night again and tried that (it hadn't been opened at all) and while it was somewhat carbonated, it wasn't anywhere near what we'd like.

Can I expect much more out of home carbonation? I'm using Fleischman's yeast (also had to import that), it's fine though, I use it for baking.

They mention being careful that it doesn't explode, so I'm worried about leaving it the 3-4 days they recommend, because they also indicate giving it a feel test.

1. Am I just being impatient?
2. Can this kind of home brewing generate carbonation on par with commercial sode or do you need a machine for that?
3. Should I double the yeast to give it more of a kick or will that really increase the yeast taste/alcohol content?

Thanks in advance

 

[Yooper]

Can I expect much more out of home carbonation? I'm using Fleischman's yeast (also had to import that), it's fine though, I use it for baking.

They mention being careful that it doesn't explode, so I'm worried about leaving it the 3-4 days they recommend, because they also indicate giving it a feel test.

1. Am I just being impatient?
2. Can this kind of home brewing generate carbonation on par with commercial sode or do you need a machine for that?
3. Should I double the yeast to give it more of a kick or will that really increase the yeast taste/alcohol content?

Thanks in advance

Yes, it should be carbed up more. Leave sit longer, until the bottles are rock hard, but before they explode.

1. Not impatient, but let them carb up in a warm place and then chill.
2. Yes, you can make it very well carbonated. I did it for years and years.
3. NO. Do not add more yeast- you have enough yeast. Just let the bottles sit longer in a warm place, until they are rock hard. Make sure your caps aren't leaking, and fit very tightly. Maybe put a balloon over them to make sure c02 isn't escaping.

 

[crossmr]

Thanks. I'm just about to start another bottle. I'll try to get it to 3 days and see if that makes anymore difference. I just know if one blows up on me, I'll have a hard time getting the wife to stay on board

 

[Yooper]

Thanks. I'm just about to start another bottle. I'll try to get it to 3 days and see if that makes anymore difference. I just know if one blows up on me, I'll have a hard time getting the wife to stay on board

Sorry, but you made me laugh. How about putting your bottles in a warm place in a pot or bin, or something that can contain a mess if it happens?

Root beer is slower to carb up than ginger ale, probably because there are more nutrients in ginger ale. I've had ginger ale carb up in 12 hours in the summer, but root beer has always taken several days to even a week in my cool house.

Are you using small bottles, or larger 2L ones? I've had 20 ounce PET bottles with tight caps that worked out great for soda, but I have done some larger ones as well. I like the smaller ones, because you can decant the soda off of the spent yeast and sediment easier in one pour.

 

[crossmr]

I've got a large pot I'll toss over the next bottle. I'm using 1.5 liter bottles. You can't get soda in a 2L bottle here in Korea. I can get 2L water bottles, but I think the plastic is different. I'm not sure if it's made to withstand the pressure of carbonation or not.

 

[Yooper]

I've got a large pot I'll toss over the next bottle. I'm using 1.5 liter bottles. You can't get soda in a 2L bottle here in Korea. I can get 2L water bottles, but I think the plastic is different. I'm not sure if it's made to withstand the pressure of carbonation or not.

Yes, I would use those 1.5 L bottles also, then! You don't want water bottles, as they won't stand up to carbonation.

Soda is more highly carbonated than beer, so beer bottles (glass) wouldn't be advisable either. I like 16-20 ounce bottles, but 1.5L is ok.

 

[crossmr]

Follow-up question here:

I started a new bottle yesterday at noon. It's midnight the next day now. About 36 hours later. This is just a little longer than the last time I did it, but already at this point the bottle is rock hard. I can't even dent the side and can only make the smallest of dents near the top where there is space. Yet this is about where it was before and the carbonation was nowhere near enough. how exactly am I supposed to tell if this is ready or not?

 

[aruzinsky]

Follow-up question here:

I started a new bottle yesterday at noon. It's midnight the next day now. About 36 hours later. This is just a little longer than the last time I did it, but already at this point the bottle is rock hard. I can't even dent the side and can only make the smallest of dents near the top where there is space. Yet this is about where it was before and the carbonation was nowhere near enough. how exactly am I supposed to tell if this is ready or not?

Why don't you loosen the cap, thereby relieving the pressure, in order to visually determine whether the liquid fizzes like normal soda? If it doesn't fizz properly, tighten the cap and continue fermenting until it fizzes properly.

 

[crossmr]

Why don't you loosen the cap, thereby relieving the pressure, in order to visually determine whether the liquid fizzes like normal soda? If it doesn't fizz properly, tighten the cap and continue fermenting until it fizzes properly.

Does that in any way impact the on-going carbonation? I know it lets the pressure out of the bottle and I'm worried doing so would set back the carbonation, thus making this an even longer process. I noticed when I released the previous bottle it didn't really seem to build back up as fast as it had before being released.

 

[Yooper]

Does that in any way impact the on-going carbonation? I know it lets the pressure out of the bottle and I'm worried doing so would set back the carbonation, thus making this an even longer process. I noticed when I released the previous bottle it didn't really seem to build back up as fast as it had before being released.

Yes, if you open the cap it will lose carbonation.

Just like when you buy a bottle of soda. If you open it up, it will go flat in a few days but if it remains sealed it will remain highly carbonated.

It's not doable for this time, but what about next time doing a couple of small soda bottles, so you can open one (and drink it!) without having to drink a whole 1.5 liters?

 

[crossmr]

Right, but the yeast and sugar are still in there doing their thing. Opening it doesn't deactivate it.

So at the 48 hour mark. I decided to crack it open. The bottle seemed to be as hard as it could be. I honestly felt like it could explode. It was that tight. When I cracked it, I got a nice foam on top, but upon pouring a small amount, I was rather disappointed. It was not that much more carbonated than before. I only poured out a small amount, and have resealed it. Hopefully the yeast and sugar will keep going. The bottle has mostly firmed back up, and I'll leave it another 48 hours before opening (or is their no point?)

 

[MrFoodScientist]

There is a point. Don't worry, you can keep going. Have you squeezed a commercial soda bottle lately? They are pretty tight. When you cracked it open, did you refrigerate it first? Warm soda loses carbonation faster than cold soda.

Also, did you open it slowly to keep it from foaming up too much? Remember that some sodas opened warm end up on your kitchen counter.

I'd recommend letting it go another 24-48 hours (in the pot just to be safe) and then refrigerating for 24. As it chills the liquid will absorb more of the CO2 and if you pour it cold it should stay carbonated a bit better.

 

[aruzinsky]

If you haven't already, do this now and thank me later.

Squeeze all of the air out of the plastic bottle before tightening the cap. Why? Because leaving air in the bottle results in a substantially higher pressure than necessary and that is why your bottles feel "rock hard" with low carbonation.

The concentration of carbon dioxide in a beverage is NOT proportional to the total pressure of the gas inside the bottle, but, instead, proportional to the partial pressure of the carbon dioxide. For example, if, at the desired degree of carbonation, half the volume of gas inside the bottle was air, the total pressure would be twice what it would have been, had the air been eliminated. When commercial sodas are bottled, the soda fizzes enough to drive out the air before the bottles are capped.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_pressure#Henry.27s_Law_and_the_solubility_of_gases .

 

[crossmr]

Thanks. It's been 24 hours more. I'll leave it another 24 hours and then toss it in the refrigerator. I did open it slowly. but didn't refrigerate it because I wasn't sure if it was done and didn't want to damage the yeast too much.

Next bottle I'll squeeze out the little bit of air. I only leave a small air gap in the top, less than an inch as recommended, but I'll squeeze the liquid to the top and cap it.

I should mention our house is running around 22 Celsius, about 72.

if that helps you figure how long I should let it go.

 

[MrFoodScientist]

How long you let it go depends largely on the vitality of the yeast, not just temperature. I've had some, even the same recipe at the same temperature go longer than others.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks. It's been 24 hours more. I'll leave it another 24 hours and then toss it in the refrigerator. I did open it slowly. but didn't refrigerate it because I wasn't sure if it was done and didn't want to damage the yeast too much.

Next bottle I'll squeeze out the little bit of air. I only leave a small air gap in the top, less than an inch as recommended, but I'll squeeze the liquid to the top and cap it.

I should mention our house is running around 22 Celsius, about 72.

if that helps you figure how long I should let it go.

Next time, chill at least 24 hours before opening- do not open warm soda and expect it to be nicely carbed as the foaming and air escaping when opening causes the c02 to come out of the bottle. Chilling it for 24 hours ensures that the c02 is "forced" into the liquid as cold liquids hold co2 better.

Opening it means that all of the c02 that was formed will escape, just like commercial soda. If you open a commercial soda, and then reclose, it will be flat in a day or two. While the yeast will still "work", it has to start over and you will have a much higher alcohol level as a result if you open the bottle and reclose.

 

[crossmr]

Well it was in the fridge about 4 hour when my wife got home and insisted we try some. I think she's getting impatient.

Anyway, much better. Finally. I poured a little in a cup, we had a taste, and it was really good. It foamed a lot when pouring, and you could really see the bubbles in the cup.

Next time I'll squeeze the air out, and let it go about 3.5-4 days. Without that mid-break it should be well done by then.

 

[crossmr]

Okay guys I got 3 bottles just done up. 2 root beer and one ginger ale.

I've done them up and squeezed the air before tightening the cap. The ginger ale I'm going to try to get it to 24 hours. The root beer I'm going to leave minimum 3 days, hopefully 3.5 straight before I crack either one.

One more question:
If I want to do up 5 or 6 bottles at once, can I pasteurize them at a high temperature for 10 minutes or so as per the other thread I read? Will that make the plastic bottles safe to leave outside the refrigerator?

 

[crossmr]

I'll say this. The root beer I opened at 48 hours and the root beer I opened at 96 hours + 4 hours of refrigerator were not the same. The second time I opened it it was substantially more carbonated. Not to the level I want, but I'm not sure it started completely at 0. I think some of the carbonation in the root beer must have remained.

 

[Yooper]

I'll say this. The root beer I opened at 48 hours and the root beer I opened at 96 hours + 4 hours of refrigerator were not the same. The second time I opened it it was substantially more carbonated. Not to the level I want, but I'm not sure it started completely at 0. I think some of the carbonation in the root beer must have remained.

Good to hear it!

Warmer temperatures help as well, and that's a challenge for people like me in the winter when my house is so cool. I get much faster carbonation in the summer.

 

[crossmr]

Good to hear it!

Warmer temperatures help as well, and that's a challenge for people like me in the winter when my house is so cool. I get much faster carbonation in the summer.

Thanks, so can I do the hot water bath (I think 140) for the plastic bottles at the end of carbonation to deactivate the yeast? Will they then be safe to leave out? For how long?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks, so can I do the hot water bath (I think 140) for the plastic bottles at the end of carbonation to deactivate the yeast? Will they then be safe to leave out? For how long?

I've never tried to stop yeast that way. I don't think it would be safe, as soda is very highly carbonated. I'm not sure how much the bottles would hold before blowing up, or if PET plastic leaches chemicals at 140. Most people who make soda put the bottles in the fridge when they are carbed up, or they keg.

 

[crossmr]

At 48 hours, oddly the rootbeer seems more carbonated than the ginger ale. The ginger ale is being made in an old sprite bottle. It's a different style of bottle than the other two, so that might have something to do with it, but it doesn't quite feel rock hard, the root beers are both like stone, but I'm leaving them. I squeezed the air out of all of them before capping, and the sprite bottle is tight, doesn't seem to be leaking. All are 1.5L.

I'm thinking to toss the ginger ale into the fridge at this point. I don't think it should take much more than 48 hours at 72 fahrenheit to get us to where it should be. I might leave it to morning (evening here) , another 8 hours or so and see how it feels.

root beer is in bottles like this:
http://www.exelfoods.com/91-thickbox/7up-bottles-12-x-15l.jpg

ginger ale in a bottle like this:
http://nightrunners.eu/brixen/images/product_images/original_images/sprite.jpg

 

[Yooper]

At 48 hours, oddly the rootbeer seems more carbonated than the ginger ale. The ginger ale is being made in an old sprite bottle. It's a different style of bottle than the other two, so that might have something to do with it, but it doesn't quite feel rock hard, the root beers are both like stone, but I'm leaving them. I squeezed the air out of all of them before capping, and the sprite bottle is tight, doesn't seem to be leaking. All are 1.5L.

I'm thinking to toss the ginger ale into the fridge at this point. I don't think it should take much more than 48 hours at 72 fahrenheit to get us to where it should be. I might leave it to morning (evening here) , another 8 hours or so and see how it feels.

root beer is in bottles like this:
http://www.exelfoods.com/91-thickbox/7up-bottles-12-x-15l.jpg

ginger ale in a bottle like this:
http://nightrunners.eu/brixen/images/product_images/original_images/sprite.jpg

If you put the ginger ale in the fridge now, it won't get more carbed as the yeast will slow down and go dormant. You can try putting a balloon over the cap, to see if co2 is leaking out, but it could be just a slow fermentation.

 

[crossmr]

Okay I'll toss a balloon over it and leave it till morning. Fingers crossed.

 

[crossmr]

well ginger ale was a bust. 56 hours and 9 hours in the fridge, and it's not really more carbed than the last one. It might be the bottle. or something else. I'm going to get one more of the same kind of bottle that I use for the root beer and try again in that.

The root beer is at 65 hours and now and as hard as I've ever seen it.. There is a significant amount of foam sitting on top of the root beer in the bottle so that gives me hope. I think I'm going to take it to 72 hours straight and then fridge it. I'd be worried about leaving it to around 80 hours if I left it over night.

 

[crossmr]

Root beer spent the day in the fridge. Opened the first one and.....

finally. It turned out good. Serious foam when I poured it out and it's got a really great carbonated feel to it. I ended up leaving it over night to 80 hours (because I forgot about it) and then tossed it in the fridge in the morning. We'll drink the first one (it got about 10 hours in the fridge) and open the other one in a few days when this one is gone, see if the extra cooling and time helps it even more.

I think the ginger ale must have been off because the ginger wasn't that fresh. It was some I had left over from a previous attempt. I'll try once more with fresh ginger and see if it carbs up properly.

 

[Leadgolem]

There is another approach you might want to consider.

Make your root beer with no sugar for sweetening. Add exactly the amount of sugar you want that will produce the amount of carbonation you want. Let it sit until you are ready to drink it. The advantage is that you don't risk the bottle exploding. You just don't have enough fermentables in there to produce that much pressure.

I find that 1.5 tsp of granulated sugar per liter produces the amount of carbonation I prefer.

For your recipe you can substitute baking splenda for the granulated sugar 1:1 for sweetening. Then add 2 1/4 tsp granulated sugar. Let it sit someplace for a week or two. It should be nicely carbed when you open it. If that isn't fizzy enough for you, increase the sugar slightly with the next batch.

1.5 tsp/liter will produce a beverage with an alcohol content of 0.4% once all the sugar has been consumed. I've not tried keeping soda like this for more then three months, but didn't have any issues up to that point.


EDIT: Oh, I forgot. The one time I tried to pasteurize in plastic the seals on the bottles failed and I lost the contents of the bottles to the water bath.

Alternately, you could bottle some in plastic and some in glass. Once the plastic reached the point that it was carbed to your liking you could pasteurize the glass bottles.

As Yooper mentioned though, soda is usually more highly carbonated then beer. So, you would have to be careful about what bottles you picked. If you weren't, they could explode from the pressure increase from the heat.

 

[crossmr]

Made another batch her last week. 4 days then into the fridge. overnight wasn't bad, but the one that was in the fridge 2 days was perfect.

I am having an issue with ginger ale vs root beer. Root beer turns out nice, ginger ale takes 10 minutes to open the first time, and keeps going even in the fridge. Because it's cooler right now, I had to leave it just under 2 days for the bottle to feel solid hard, but even after 2 days in the fridge I can't just open it or it blows up. I have to open it and close it over and over to prevent it from bubbling over.

 

[MrFoodScientist]

Sounds like your ginger ale is getting overcarbonated and you need to shorten your time before going into the fridge.

 

[crossmr]

For some reason my last two bottles didn't happen.

I left them 4 days again, still the same temperature in the house. I had picked them up and they felt hard. Put them in the fridge last night, went to open them today and the first one suddenly felt soft. The other one felt hard still , so I opened the hard one, but it had some pretty weak carbonation.

Any thoughts on "Saving" these bottles? It's a hassle to import the extract here, so I don't like to waste any. I've read that only 1 or 2 tablespoons of sugar is enough to carbonate, so could I let it warm back up, toss in a couple tablespoons of fresh sugar and some fresh yeast and see if it kicks off again?

and I'll start some new gingerale this weekend and shorten the time on it.

 

[joshesmusica]

if you just let it warm back up, it should start carbonating again. it's like cold crashing a beer, they still carbonate afterward.
actually this is one of the reasons with homemade soda that you don't want to say take the bottles out to a picnic or something unless you have a cooler, the yeast will soon wake up again and start consuming again.
to be honest it sounds like you're making this more difficult than it has to be. i usually leave more head space than you would see in commercial sodas, and then squeeze that out. this just helps to ensure that it's finished when the pressure is rock hard. again, just test your rock hardness against an unopened, store-bought bottle of soda. once it's at that level, refrigerate for at least 2 days. you should be getting consistent results if you're using the same ingredients and it's sitting at the same temp. it's only a couple of days to wait. don't get impatient! my house was sitting around 21-22 and i was getting my ginger ale carbed in 24 hours.

 

[crossmr]

if you just let it warm back up, it should start carbonating again. it's like cold crashing a beer, they still carbonate afterward.
actually this is one of the reasons with homemade soda that you don't want to say take the bottles out to a picnic or something unless you have a cooler, the yeast will soon wake up again and start consuming again.
to be honest it sounds like you're making this more difficult than it has to be. i usually leave more head space than you would see in commercial sodas, and then squeeze that out. this just helps to ensure that it's finished when the pressure is rock hard. again, just test your rock hardness against an unopened, store-bought bottle of soda. once it's at that level, refrigerate for at least 2 days. you should be getting consistent results if you're using the same ingredients and it's sitting at the same temp. it's only a couple of days to wait. don't get impatient! my house was sitting around 21-22 and i was getting my ginger ale carbed in 24 hours.

That's what I did with both bottles. I put the sugar, extract and yeast, water with about an inch of head space, and rotate/shake gently to disolve the sugar. Then I take the cap off and squeeze the water up to the top and put the cap on. Did it to both. They both expanded out, and were left for 4 days. At the end of 4 days I tossed them in the fridge for 24 hours. This is what I did last time and both turned out perfect, this time, not so much. One was midly carbonated, the other had nothing in it at all. Like it was just doing nothing for the last 4 days.

 

[joshesmusica]

sounds like it could be the yeast then.

 

[crossmr]

sounds like it could be the yeast then.

Same yeast, it's been kept in the fridge, I'll give another bottle a try.

I'm going to toss some yeast and sugar in some warm water and see if it's gone off. Hope not.
Take me nearly two weeks to replace it.

 

[joshesmusica]

is it still the bread yeast? dry yeast i'm guessing? the thing with yeast is that it needs some nutrients as well when it's going to eat up those simple sugars. just like humans, they can't get long-lasting energy from simple sugars, they need some complex proteins and things of that nature to be really effective. it's why yooper mentioned that they seem to work better in ginger ale, because there's more nutrients in that. so you may just overwhelm your yeast with just simple sugars. though i would expect that for just carbing up, they should do the trick no matter what. do you rehydrate the yeast before you pitch it in? i believe that even in bread making you take the wet ingredients to rehydrate the yeast before adding in the dry stuff.

 

[crossmr]

It's the same yeast I use to make bread, Fleischmann's active dry. It worked before, but I just did a test and it seems to have gone off, I'll have to order some more in before I can try again.

 

[crossmr]

While I'm waiting to get some Red star from Amazon (first bag they sent my reshipper had a hole in it, so now I gotta wait for another one), can't find the 2 pound bricks of fleischman's on amazon.

I tried some local active dry yeast here in Korea. Carbonated up fantastic..
problem is it tastes like crap. The yeast really altered the flavor. Even the stuff I had go bust and not carb up properly tastes better than this.

So local yeast is definitely out unless I can find someway to compensate for the flavor.