[Not a] Bike Pump Keg [Evolution]

[pizzaman]

Here's what I'll be working on tomorrow:

 

[pizzaman]

Another reason for building something so silly: I have mentioned that the 2 and 3 liter bottles have the same cap shape and size(38mm). It's also true that the 6 liter PET bottles made for Tap-A-Draft use a 38mm cap. So once I have a working model, I could purchase three of these 6 liter bottles and have enough to hold 5 gallons of brew.

These bottles can be purchased here for $7.95 with free shipping, this is the cheapest place I have found: https://morebeer.com/view_product/18295

[EDIT]The free shipping only kicks in for orders of $59 or more, so you'd have to buy 8 to get it...shipping for one is about $6 for USPS. You can get three 6 Liter bottles for right at $30 with shipping. The price of the whole TAD system is $70 plus shipping, the price of what I'm building is about $15; $15 + $30 = $45, savings of about $35 when you count shipping costs.[/EDIT]

 

[pizzaman]

I'm posting this link here simply for my future reference:

Go, Gadget, Go!

 

[pizzaman]

After a bit more tinkering and about an hour of walking around Lowes looking at compression valves and talking with plumbing experts, I have found that the only way to make any of the previously made plans work is with a welder to secure a washer to the nut attached to the bottom of the brass tee in order to make a secure fit. They would also require the use of copper tubing within the tee itself to attach the vinyl tubing to, as brass compression tees have no way of sealing to any sort of flexible tubing. I can see that now looking more closely at the plans I have posted the urls to.

Luckily I learned these little bits of knowledge before purchasing anyting other than my $2 pvc purchase. I will be returning to Lowes tomorrow to buy Aqua Marine Epoxy and trying for another cheap effective approach. This epoxy is used to seal plastic, metal, ceramics, fiberglass, and tile, works underwater, even dries and makes a water and airtight seal when applied underwater. Sounds like some kind of elven magic to me. 0.85 Fluid Oz is about $5, so I'm gonna buy some and bring it home. My plan is to drill two 1/4" holes in one of my PET bottle caps and run one 3/8" vinyl tubing line through for the feed line, another tubing through for my schrader valve. I'll probably wrap the lines in threading tape just for the hell of it. Once they are in place I will apply the expoxy carefully to the top and bottom of the cap, being sure not to get in the way of the seal on the underside. I'm debating whether or not to make the holes in the caps big enough for the epoxy to make a connection through the top and bottom, I think doing this would make the seal stronger, but possibly weaker physically...I do have lots of PET bottle caps laying around so I may experiment and try both ways. If this idea works, the total cost of my diy keg will be right at $10 counting the cost of the picnic tab, vinyl tubing, and epoxy. The nice thing about this concept(if it works) is that once the initial investment has been covered, additional caps can be built incredibly cheaply.

Here's a purdy little pic of what the finished product should look like:

 

[beerthirty]

I've looked everywhere for those metal stems and can't seem to find one locally. I tried lowe's, home de-pot, ace, even autozone.

As far as your question, aside from the 10 different reasons I've given in previous posts, I just thought of another one. My *ahem* brewing method is 1 week in primary and 1 week in the bottle. Scoff and curse all you want but it works and it's damned fine beer.

I would scoff and curse at no mans beer or method. Your method makes perfect sense now knowing its young and settling. For the all metal valve stems you might try a truck repair center, heavy equipment dealer or repair, probably even NAPA. The suggestion for these stems is just to make your project a little easier to copy for a fleet of bottles. For easy drilling of the cap, I sacrificed one bottle and cut the top 1/3 off. Then with a cap screwed onto the cut bottle I drilled from the inside. This kept the cap gasket pinched between the cap and bottle and made for a cleaner hole. Of course there was a block of wood under it when drilling.

 

[pizzaman]

Good idea about cutting up a bottle for drilling the cap. I had read somewhere about doing that but thought it was just because they were afraid to hold the cap in their hand while drilling a hole in it. I hadn't even considered that it would keep me from damaging the gasket. Thus far the only place I have actually searched for the metal schrader valves has been online, but at every hardware/auto parts store in my city; I'm sure someplace carries it and just doesn't list it online. However, I'm hoping I will be able to make this work without needing to buy anything but the epoxy.

 

[beerthirty]

San Antonio has no NAPA(National Auto Parts Association)? I like the metal stems because they "bolt on" instead of needing epoxy or glue. The plus side is when the cap wears out or strips the valve stem can be "bolted on" the next one. Safety is a concern while drilling something in your hand, I have two thumbnails on the left thumb from a drilling mishap, but as you deduced the cut bottle is more for the secure holding of the gasket. If you want the metal stems and can't source them, shoot me a PM. I'm planning on getting some more for the barleywine trade occuring soon.

 

[bluehouse]

there is a NAPA on Highway 78 between Kirby & Converse.

 

[pizzaman]

I purchased what looked like the strongest epoxy available at lowes. I carefully applied it to both sides of the cap after securing the two lines in place; it dried nice and solid on both ends. After waiting twice the recommended time just to be sure it was dry, I did a test run. While the seal is air and water tight, it is not able to hold any amount of pressure over about 5psi. This obviously is useless for my application.

So the general problem I have had in designing this thing is that I don't want to have to use any kind of brass tee as 1)the brass is not made to make any kind of seal with anything other than brass or copper tubing and 2)I don't like the idea of the fittings for the co2 valve and feed line costing more then the co2 pump, feed line/tap, and keg all put together. All the tutorials I have found and posted here so far have been able to jerry-rig it into a working state, but all required some specialized tools and soldering, neither of which I have. The easiest and most effective way I can think of to make this work is to do what I have been trying to do, which is have two seperate holes in the cap, one for the air valve, and one for the feed line. This is very difficult to do with a standard 38mm cap as you only actually have about 25mm or so to work with before you start affecting the gasket. You could possibly do it if you could find some 1/8 or 1/16 compression couplings, but I have not been able to and am not sure they even make them that small. If they do, and someone can find them and make that idea work, please post your results here.

Since I am unable to make the compression pieces small enough to fit into a cap so small, I am now looking at just making the cap bigger. I actually thought about doing that somehow in the past; anything I could've done probably would not have been a very strong seal. Then I was wandering around my local HEB yesterday, and I stumbled upon a 5 gallon water bottle with handle, on sale for $5. I grabbed one, should've grabbed all five of them...then after getting home I find this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/homemade-keg-5326/ After a quick chat with denny, I have deduced that the 5 gallon water bottle will hold the pressure, so long as it is properly regulated. He suggested a pressure relief valve, which I found for about $10. I then found a PSI regulator with built in gauge for $10. I've already ordered a CO2 bike pump, so am now waiting for both of these to arrive. Once they do, it's back to lowes to get the compression fittings to attach to the water bottle lid(one for the feed line, one for the regulator/co2 pump assembly). Clearly this is no longer a bike pump keg, and it's not even an original idea anymore, but damn it I've come this far, I might as well finish what I started.

 

[pizzaman]

I've just added up the prices for everything I still have to purchase, and everything I've purchased already. I went a bit over my budget. Here's a list of what I've already got:

5gal bottle: $5
Tap & Feed line: $8
CO2 Pump: $10
PSI Regulator: $10

Total: $33


Here's the list of what I need to buy from Lowes to make everything fit together:

Feed Line:
3/8 hex nipple $1.88
washer/gasket $1
3/8 barb x fip $2.88
3' 3/8 tubing $0.50

CO2 Pump:
1/8 air valve $3.39
1/8 x 1/4 bushing $1.38

PSI Regulator:
1/4 x 3/8 busing $2.02
washer/gasket $1
3/8 nut $1

Total: $15.05

Spent $33 already, need another $15.05, for a grand total of 48.05.

There is a bright side to this. When I want to buy more kegs, they will only cost $5 each for five gallons, as the whole assembly is built into the cap which is interchangeable. One down side is I won't have any mini-kegs, which I originally wanted so I could at least keep them in the fridge. I have seen these same water bottles range in size from 1 gallon up to 7 gallons so I'll definitely have to go take a closer look at them and see if they use the same caps(crossing fingers). If this is the case then I will be able to have an assortment of keg sizes for $5 or less each, and only need to one tap system.

Another down side is that the water bottle could still explode once I get everything together and test it. I plan on setting the regulator to 12-15 psi, and leaving it there. As long as I am able to prime correctly before kegging, I shouldn't have to worry about an explosion. From the very beginning I had been worrying about over-pressurization; mainly because I know that none of my friends know anything about homebrewing or kegging and would either "forget" to add pressure to the keg, or they would over-pressurize it or something stupid like that. It is a relief knowing that the regulator will take care of all that for me.

 

[pizzaman]

Decided to see how well the 5 gallon bottle would fit inside my "Ice-Cube" rolling cooler. As you can see from the pics it fits snugly inside, leaving enough room for plenty of ice. I could make one hell of a rolling-kegerator by cutting a hole in the lid just big enough for the top to fit through, and it would still have the four cup holders surrounding the hole.

Here's a pic of what the cooler looks like closed, without the bottle inside(for anyone who doesn't know how awesome the Ice-cube cooler is:

 

[telemaster]

The wheels in my head are spinning!



subscribed

 

[pizzaman]

I was outbid on my co2 bike pump at the last minute. I did get the psi regulator for $10, which really was the hard thing to find for a decent price. If nothing else there's a bike shop down the road from me that sells okay pumps for $10, and good pumps for $15-20.

I have been wondering something recently....since I have a psi regulator and the CO2 will not really need to go through a pump, is there a way I can just build a valve to screw directly onto the co2 tank? I'm sure there has to be a simple way to do this...

 

[pizzaman]

From the looks of this photo, I would assume I could just buy a screw-on valve for the co2 tank, and attach it to the input of my psi regulator. If I were to do this, I would probably want to have some sort of on/off switch in between the tank and the regulator. This tank is $19 for 9oz(roughly one 5 gallon keg), $22 for 12oz(1.5 kegs?), and $37 for 24oz(about three 5 gallon kegs).


Anyone have any thoughts on this? Has anyone found or made a cheap valve for co2 tanks? Is there a standard size for these tanks?

[NOTE]These are labeled as refillable tanks[/NOTE]

 

[pizzaman]

....I answered my own questions here: co2 info

Now, rather than looking for prices on a bike pump, I'm looking for prices on large(~24oz), refillable co2 tanks, and prices on a CGA320 valve.

 

[pizzaman]

Decided to test-fit the bottle in one of my other coolers:

It fits perfectly! Lid closes and everything.

Waiting for the regulator gauge I ordered to get here, I'm a bit concerned that it won't work for this project...got it on ebay for $10 so if it does work it'll be a steal. I'm not sure why it wouldn't work, the seller said it's new and works from 10-150 psi..I guess I just don't know enough about regulators to make a fair assessment. As soon as it arrives its off to lowes to buy fittings for it. I've found a 12oz co2 tank on craigslist for $5, also one on ebay for $10 w/shipping...hopefully one of those will pan out before the regulator arrives so I can buy the fittings for everything all at once.

Here's a pic of the regulator, anyone think this will/won't work for regulating psi of co2 as long as I get the valves hooked up properly?

 

[pizzaman]

Somehow I found these two sites which walk you through connecting a paintball co2 tank to a keg using a Universal Fill Adapter.
Portable Paintball CO2 Rig- Lustreking Brewing
Schwedhelm.net - Illustrated Brewing - Big Gasser

The Universal Fill Adapter(ufa) hooks up to any standard co2 paintball tank and has a twist on/off valve. gas outlet is 1/8" fpt, I've found one for $7.99 w/free shipping. Total price tag keeps going up and up....still worth it though

 

[pizzaman]

For anyone who's still keeping track...after doing some more research, I'm very glad that I was outbid on the co2 bike pump. Each 12gram refill would've cost me $2, which is about the same price it costs to refill a 9-12oz tank. 9oz = ~255grams, therefore you would have to buy 21 : 12 gram cartridges to equal the volume of one 9oz tank. Even if you buy these in bulk to save money, you're still looking at a good $10+, compared to the $2 refill.

 

[pizzaman]

Whoo Hoo!!! I just won a 9oz co2 tank on eBay for $4, and a UFA adaptor for $7. Goth both items togehter with shipping for less than a co2 bike pump with 12gram co2.

 

[pizzaman]

I have just confirmed as many before me have, that a 5 gallon water bottle will not hold suitable pressure for use as a keg. The lid had no seal at all, after wrapping the threads in threading tape it was able to hold a seal, however the bottom of the bottle began to bulge out as the psi reached a mere 5. Not sure how denny was able to do it, maybe he had a different water bottle. Either way, I have ditched that idea, and am rethinking the design. I've got about a week before the co2 parts I ordered arrive, so plenty of time to come up with some sort of cockameemee plan. I'm thinking I'll probably end up ordering some 6 liter PET bottles at $10 a pop, as this is the all around cheapest solution. That and the 6 liter bottles for the tap-a-draft system have a proven track record for use in kegging.

I am still considering using 3 liter bottles, with some sort of daisy chain setup:

Two 3 liters would give you about 1.5 gallons, and Six 3 liters or Nine 2 liters would give you about 5 gallons:

 

[PhlyanPan]

Here's a pic of the regulator, anyone think this will/won't work for regulating psi of co2 as long as I get the valves hooked up properly?

Do you know what the maximum rated inlet pressure of that regulator is? Are you using it as a primary or secondary?

 

[pizzaman]

The psi regulator is rated from 0 to 160 psi. I will be using it as the primary regulator.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Here's a pic of the regulator, anyone think this will/won't work for regulating psi of co2 as long as I get the valves hooked up properly?

I saw one of these at Lowes and similar one at Menards. The menards one didn't have a gauge.

Few points to consider;

• I doubt this is a regulator. Made in China. I bet its miss-labeled. I believe this to be a flow control. Lowes has them in stock for paint guns.
• Menards has the same thing, made of brass, no gauge, to me... it means flow control.
• Pressure rating ??? 0-160psi No good for high gas pressures. WARNING - Might be a REAL safety risk!!!!

FYI - I bought a regulator from menards for $18.00 Its for compressed air (0-160psi). It won't work for CO2 thats more likely to have the possibility of seeing pressures above a couple hundred PSI.

I have yet to take it back but plan to then next time I need to go there.

 

[PhlyanPan]

Just because the gauge reads from 0-160 doesn't mean that's the maximum inlet pressure that the regulator is rated for. It could be higher, or could be lower. A gauge is just a gauge. I could screw a gauge that reads 0-1000 psi into some crappy little regulator, that doesn't mean it's going to work.

And you're going to use this to regulate high pressure CO2 from a refillable paintball canister?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but high pressure CO2 is in the neighborhood of 700-800 psi if I remember correctly.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Just because the gauge reads from 0-160 doesn't mean that's the maximum inlet pressure that the regulator is rated for. It could be higher, or could be lower. A gauge is just a gauge. I could screw a gauge that reads 0-1000 psi into some crappy little regulator, that doesn't mean it's going to work.

And you're going to use this to regulate high pressure CO2 from a refillable paintball canister?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but high pressure CO2 is in the neighborhood of 700-800 psi if I remember correctly.

EDIT: OOPS - PhlyanPan - You were addressing the OP.

I agree, the package for the regulator I saw said;

"Range: 0-160PSI "

​

(MEANING TO ME: Prolly no good for CO2)

I could care less about the gauge. In fact I would want one 0-30psi.

I don't know how high of pressure paint ball gas tanks are when filled but I do know many are stamped with "1800 PSI MAX"

 

[Coffeeaddictnova]

I have just confirmed as many before me have, that a 5 gallon water bottle will not hold suitable pressure for use as a keg. The lid had no seal at all, after wrapping the threads in threading tape it was able to hold a seal, however the bottom of the bottle began to bulge out as the psi reached a mere 5. Not sure how denny was able to do it, maybe he had a different water bottle. Either way, I have ditched that idea, and am rethinking the design.

Hi Pizzaman, have you considered the plastic sprayer containers suggested by Revvy in the first page of this thread? See: FANTASTIC PLASTIC KEGS

 

[pizzaman]

I have looked at the plastic spray bottles, walmart has 1 gallon bottles for about $20.

 

[Bobby_M]

Oh my god man, you are still at this? You're going to end up with a $300 pile of useless parts by the time you realize you should be spending this time on Ebay and Craigshelper to find a used tank, reg, and four pack of cornies.

 

[pizzaman]

I'm almost there bobby, I just got an email back from the seller of the regulator, it's made for use with an air compressor....which only get up to a couple hundred psi. I definitely won't be using this for co2. So far the only money I've spent is $10 for a co2 tank and $8 for a universal valve to connect the tank to a regulator(both of which I would need anyway). The $10 I spent on the regulator will be refunded, as the seller has a 30 day no-questions-asked return policy. The $5 I spent on the 5 gallon water bottle gave me another carboy to use for brewing. I will admit I went into this not knowing nearly enough about what I was trying to do, but I still think I'll be able to get a working system going eventually. I appreciate everyone's help so far.

 

[PhlyanPan]

Look man, you obviously are trying to do things you don't fully think through with equipment you don't understand the operation of. I understand trying to do things differently and I really applaud your enthusiasm. But you're going to hurt yourself.

If I hadn't decided to check back up on this thread you'd have blown up that regulator and possibly caused serious harm to yourself or others. Take a step back, what is it that you don't like about the corny keg system? What are you trying to do better?

 

[Schlenkerla]

If I hadn't decided to check back up on this thread you'd have blown up that regulator and possibly caused serious harm to yourself or others. Take a step back, what is it that you don't like about the corny keg system? What are you trying to do better?

PhlyanPan - You can't take all the credit. I was warning him too.

Pizzaman. I bought 3 kegs for $15 each and a regulator for about $50 and the hoses, gas & beer for about $30. If you shop around you can get the stuff for a corny set-up for not too much dough.

Gas bottles can be found pretty cheap at a local gas places like Praxair or whatever is common in your neighborhood.

 

[PhlyanPan]

PhlyanPan - You can't take all the credit. I was warning him too.

You're right Schlenk! It was a team effort The point remains, things are being played with that aren't fully understood.

Pizzaman. I bought 3 kegs for $15 each and a regulator for about $50 and the hoses, gas & beer for about $30. If you shop around you can get the stuff for a corny set-up for not too much dough.

Gas bottles can be found pretty cheap at a local gas places like Praxair or whatever is common in your neighborhood.

+1...if you're patient this setup doesn't have to cost that much.

I got my tank, regulator, a faucet, and a shank for a case of Labatt Blue. A guy I worked with had one that was 20 years old and he never used anymore plus the tank needed to be re certified.

I've gotten 2 pin lock kegs for free and paid $85 for 3 more ball lock kegs with hoses, disconnects and a secondary regulator that I won on ebay. Seriously dude, you can find these things fairly cheaply.

 

[pizzaman]

I've been looking on craigslist and ebay constantly for over a month now and haven't found anything in my price range yet. I wish I knew someone that is currently or used to be into brewing to get these things. I got most of my current brew setup from my father in law who used to brew occasionally, but unfortunately he never got into kegging. As of right now I have a co2 tank and adapter, I'm gonna keep looking for a used co2 regulator that is meant for kegging, maybe I'll just get lucky.

 

[pizzaman]

Does anyone see any fundamental problems with this design(other than the fact that I'm back to trying epoxy putty to make a seal)? The tap-line is split off before entering each bottle, and could presumably be split a number of times to add multiple bottles to the setup, so long as each bottle contains the same beer in it. The CO2 line "daisy chains" from one bottle to the next, the lines wouldn't have to tee off as it is just gas moving from one container to the next until the set psi is reached.

I'm no physics expert, but I can't see any flaws with this design; but as we have seen with my previous design ideas, this doesn't mean there aren't any flaws. Please comment away on this idea. Thanks.

 

[pizzaman]

Just found an article at BYO talking about using pump spray bottles as revvy suggested. Here's the link if anyone's interested:

Brew Your Own: The How-To Homebrew Beer Magazine - Projects and Equipment - Building Plastic Mini-Kegs: Projects

 

[PhlyanPan]

No one is.

Do yourself a favor and find a friend or someone you know who's got some sort of design/build background to help you. I don't care if they're an engineer or a machinist or a car builder or anything in between. It's the only thing that's going to keep you from blowing yourself up.
I'm not even going to look at this thread again. It's quite obvious you're determined to do something different just for the sake of doing it differently, and normally that's ok, but you obviously don't know enough about what you're playing with to do it safely. And for some reason you seem to think it's going to be less expensive. Doing things differently from everyone else almost never is.

 

[pizzaman]

sorry if I offended you with my crazy ideas phlyanpan, thanks for your input so far.

I have said numerous times the main reason for this build is just for the sake of building something. I may never get a working model, though I hope I will, and I hope I get lots of use out of it, and I hope I can make a DIY thread with instructions on how to build it and others build it and use it also; but I understand none of this may happen. I also understand it is dangerous to "play" with a gas that is so tightly compressed that it is in liquid form.

On that note, I've seen "static psi regulators" for numerous other uses such as in vehicles, sprinkler/plumbing equipment; I also know that the heinekin mini-keg uses what is basically a static psi regulator built into the keg to keep a pressure level of 2 atmospheres. Has anyone ever seen or heard of a static co2 regulator set to around 15 psi for use in kegging? I know it can be done, and it would be much cheaper to manufacture than an adjustable regulator, and it could be simply slipped inline between the co2 tank and the keg, but I don't know that anyone would sell it as most keggers claim to need multiple levels of psi for different beers/sodas...even though it would be so cheap that you could have a number of these static regulators for the same price as a typical dynamic regulator.

 

[JesseRC]

I've been looking on craigslist and ebay constantly for over a month now and haven't found anything in my price range yet. I wish I knew someone that is currently or used to be into brewing to get these things. I got most of my current brew setup from my father in law who used to brew occasionally, but unfortunately he never got into kegging. As of right now I have a co2 tank and adapter, I'm gonna keep looking for a used co2 regulator that is meant for kegging, maybe I'll just get lucky.

So you already have a co2 tank, then you're halfway there. What is a adapter? Even if you had to go cheap you could go to Harbor Freight on Fredericksburg road (SA,TX) and buy their $34 regulator (it wont be the best). Now you just need a corny keg. KegConnection has some great deals on kegs with broken handles. Or just keep checking on Craigslist. You could also buy a carbonator cap and picnic faucet. Carb in a 2 liter bottle for a few days. Then attach picnic tap, release pressure slightly , then turn 2 liter bottle upside down and pour beer with picnic tap. You'd have to use a gas Quick Disonnect on the end of the picnic tap hose, but it should work for portability.

 

[pizzaman]

The adapter is a "universal fill adapter" which allows you to connect a regulator to a standard paintball co2 tank. It's basically just a screw on adapter with an on/off valve. Here's a page that shows using the paintball co2 tank with the adapter(the adapter is the black tube with the silver thumb screw on top): http://brewing.lustreking.com/gear/paintballco2.html

I have seen and made my own carbonator caps with a schrader valve, this idea works fine for carrying one or two bottles and dispensing upside down, but ideally I would like to be able to have multiple 2 liter bottles, all hooked up to one system that can be left right-side up in a cooler, and easily be used without my supervision.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm thoroughly convinced that you either A. Have a horrible case of stainless steel phobia/allergy or B. Want to come up with a DIY solution no matter what, even if it's inferior or more costly than a corny.

You're talking about having multiple small containers that you have to sanitize vs. one large one.