New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[TBryerton]

Pic from the OH thread…

I’m certainly not an expert on PH, and I don’t typically measure it in the FV, but the one thing I’ve always been curious about in this log is how low the PH is. So maybe there’s some advantage to dropping it really low at KO or post WP.

 

[stickyfinger]

what's the idea here? the yeast want to drop the pH so you make it easier for them if you pre-acidify and they release less off-flavors? has anyone done a comparison on this. I'm happy to start doing it if it really makes a difference.

5.0-5.1 is ideal for knockout pH but that’s more for fermentation/yeast reasons than anything else.

 

[Dwaynehaze]

Pic from the OH thread…

I’m certainly not an expert on PH, and I don’t typically measure it in the FV, but the one thing I’ve always been curious about in this log is how low the PH is. So maybe there’s some advantage to dropping it really low at KO or post WP.

Holy crap I've been adjusting to 4.7 pre pitch gotta give this a whirl

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Pic from the OH thread…

I’m certainly not an expert on PH, and I don’t typically measure it in the FV, but the one thing I’ve always been curious about in this log is how low the PH is. So maybe there’s some advantage to dropping it really low at KO or post WP.

it's 5.7 plato (1.022), yeast have already reduced pH

 

[aaronm13]

I've only ever adjusted post boil that low for a kettle sour. Would there not be a bit of a sour taste from it? So surprised Other Half are at 4.03 on day 1 of fermentation. Is it also ok to add acid post boil without risk of infection?

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I look at it like this, sure you have to be careful but we add hops and other things post boil I doubt acid is an issue. That being said I have not done it, I add acid to my mash and sparge water before I do anything else I typically hit 5.2 to 5.3 in the mash and never check it after that. I suppose on my next round Ill check it post boil just for my own knowledge, maybe adjust it at some point but I am not to keen on trying it before I get some more details as I brew 15gal at a time and not interested in ruining a batch haha.

Cheers!

 

[aaronm13]

I've started checking post boil and was 5.1 on my latest brew. I'm crashing after dry hop now so will keg tomorrow and I'll check the pH then.

 

[secretlevel]

@secretlevel just got one of these pouches in the mail today. Pretty excited to try it out. Curious as to your pitch rate, whether or not you used dextrose, and oxygenation at pitch. Ive used Imperial Juice once and had a higher pitch rate, used 8oz of dextrose, and oxygenated more than typical. Thanks

To be honest, I didn't even get the pouch since I got it before it's official release. I got some slurry from a homebrew club president, who got it from Omega for our tasting with them. At this point, it's Generation 3+, so I'm not sure how close your numbers will be to mine, just don't be surprised if it attenuates a bit more than Imperial Juice.

- 1L starter
- no O2 other than shaking the fermenter
- 149F mash temp
- No dextrose, ~80% 2-row and 20% malted oats.

 

[beervoid]

I would think the amount of acid needed to adjust to around 4.6 before WP might have a flavor impact in the beer. I’ve never read anything specifically about extraction of specific hop compounds at certain pH values on the hotside.

Lower the pH the less bitterness extraction...

5.0-5.1 is ideal for knockout pH but that’s more for fermentation/yeast reasons than anything else.

Yeast can be stressed if the PH is not right, they function optimally below 4.5. It would be interesting to see how much of a difference in esters one would get. I would think that higher PH would make them more stressed cause it has to work harder to get down below 4.5.
Or maybe they create more esters when they are happy? so lowering PH would help raise esters?
The PH correlation to hotside bitterness is very small from what I've read.

EDIT seems janish already wrote a piece about this: Esters and Fusel Alcohols - Scott Janish

Going by this info it might be interesting to get a really high KO ph, let the yeast ferment for 2 or 3 days and then bring it down with some acid to get below 4.5PH where diacetyl uptake is optimal.

 

[beervoid]

My local brewery owner/brewer just picked got some spectrum in and is going to us it pretty soon so I’ll chat with him about it and try the beer and report back on it. That said I’m sure we’ve had it in OH and EQ beers for a while now and they always test HAAS products View attachment 738046

They would have marketed it that way no? Equilibrium specifically stated they used lupomax, Other Half talked about their HDHC but that didn't have spectrum in it as far as I know

 

[Dgallo]

They would have marketed it that way no? Equilibrium specifically stated they used lupomax, Other Half talked about their HDHC but that didn't have spectrum in it as far as I know

This is from equilibrium’s interview with Haas.

Then this is from OH

I am assuming they were alluding to Spectrum here. I don’t think they were allowed to talk about it or name it officially while in development.

 

[beervoid]

This is from equilibrium’s interview with Haas.
View attachment 738135

Then this is from OH
View attachment 738136

I am assuming they were alluding to Soectrum here. I don’t think they were allowed to talk about it or name it officially while in development.

Right, yeah definitely seems like that.

Have any here tried those beers?

 

[ThatVideoKid]

I've only ever adjusted post boil that low for a kettle sour. Would there not be a bit of a sour taste from it? So surprised Other Half are at 4.03 on day 1 of fermentation. Is it also ok to add acid post boil without risk of infection?

The guy I saw touting this did make sure to insist on adjusting with phosphoric due to its taste-neutrality. That said, I don't think its "sour" taste you'd be worried about. Ales are regularly in the low 4's or even high 3's without being noticeably sour.

And yeah I'm sure there's no risk of infection. Its almost pure acid, nothing living in that.

it's 5.7 plato (1.022), yeast have already reduced pH

And this, yeah. They aren't knocking out at 4.0. "Day 1" is likely 24hr after the pitch. We also can't really determine much by these numbers, because generally yeast strains are going to lower themselves to the pH they desire to live in regardless of starting pH. Maybe a slight swing either way based on their starting point, but not much.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I’m not sure if it’s adding hops in the mash, cosmic punch, or both, but there is definitely something to it because this is the best NEIPA I’ve made to date. I added cascade in the mash and accounted for approximately 10 AA according to beersmith. I’m going to be playing with these numbers in the future for sure.

Im a little confused by how you are determining how much hops to put in the mash on this. "accounted for approximately 10AA?" do you mean IBUs? sorry if a stupid question but would love some clarity for my own planning on using this yeast next weekend.

 

[echoALEia]

Im a little confused by how you are determining how much hops to put in the mash on this. "accounted for approximately 10AA?" do you mean IBUs? sorry if a stupid question but would love some clarity for my own planning on using this yeast next weekend.

Sorry IBUs. Just looked back on the recipe and for this beer the IBUs were 8.2 in the mash. Next recipe I’m going to go higher and see how the bitterness is or just go with warrior hops maybe?

 

[aaronm13]

This is the pH of my latest brew. So finishing at 4.64 I'm even higher than the 4.6 post boil adjustment. My post boil was 5.1

Would be interested to try and adjust to 4.6 post boil but don't want to ruin a full batch.

 

[kingmatt]

I just got a pack of this in the mail and am trying to put together a recipe for it.

I found this BA presentation on Thiol development but have to admit that I'm not smart enough to decipher it without hearing the entire presentation (probably not even then):

https://www.brewersassociation.org/...iol-Precursors-in-Different-Hop-Varieties.pdf

It seems like they found Cascade and Simcoe are high in thiol precursors and Sabro, Citra & Mosaic are high in free thiols but it is not clear to me on exactly what that means on a practical level. Would Cascade and Simcoe be best to use in the mash and Sabro Citra & Mosaic better to use in the whirlpool/dry hop?

I also found this post from Scott Janish where he used Columbus as the precursor and Southern Cross/Nelson as thiol drivers (I think?):

Thiol Driver - Scott Janish

Anyone smarter or more experienced in this than me want to provide some clarification/recommendation on which hops to use, and when, to maximize the effects of this "thiolzed" yeast?

I brewed up a lower ABV NEIPA (1.054 SG) today to give this yeast a whirl and also used spelt malt for the first time, so we will see how that goes.

I decided to go with 3oz Simcoe in the mash and equal parts Nelson, Citra and HBC 586 in the whirlpool. I'll use some combination of those hops in the dry hop post fermentation.

Fingers crossed.

 

[TBryerton]

it's 5.7 plato (1.022), yeast have already reduced pH

Right. I wasn’t suggesting they KO at that PH. And Ive heard yeast will get to its target PH regardless - not sure if that’s true. It seems like getting your Ph that low would be more likely if your KO PH was lower to begin with.

 

[beervoid]

This is the pH of my latest brew. So finishing at 4.64 I'm even higher than the 4.6 post boil adjustment. My post boil was 5.1

Would be interested to try and adjust to 4.6 post boil but don't want to ruin a full batch.

Pour a beer and dose it you can see what type of effect it has on flavor.

 

[beervoid]

Right. I wasn’t suggesting they KO at that PH. And Ive heard yeast will get to its target PH regardless - not sure if that’s true. It seems like getting your Ph that low would be more likely if your KO PH was lower to begin with.

Their ferment seemed to have gone super fast, possibly cause of a repitched yeast. The faster the fermentation the steeper the PH drop.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

For those who have used cosmic punch and mash hopping, trying to find any literature other than what Omega has put out to determine some things. 1) if mash hopping, do all mash hops go into the mash at dough in? I do 90minute mashes so just wondering when to put them into the mash as I haven't seen anything speaking to this. 2) When mash hopping are y'all reducing the amount of hops in the boil or whirlpool or both OR just calling the mash hops an "added" hot side hop.

 

[kingmatt]

For those who have used cosmic punch and mash hopping, trying to find any literature other than what Omega has put out to determine some things. 1) if mash hopping, do all mash hops go into the mash at dough in? I do 90minute mashes so just wondering when to put them into the mash as I haven't seen anything speaking to this. 2) When mash hopping are y'all reducing the amount of hops in the boil or whirlpool or both OR just calling the mash hops an "added" hot side hop.

Fww, here's what I did (verdict is obviously still out on whether it will be successful):
1) I added all 3 oz shortly after I mashed in, but I only did a 30 min mash. Beersmith gives you an estimated IBU output for mash hopping, so I assume the longer they are in there the more bitterness you would theoretically extract. I personally wouldn't worry about it.
2) I treated the mash hops as an add-on and hopped normally the rest of the way.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Fww, here's what I did (verdict is obviously still out on whether it will be successful):
1) I added all 3 oz shortly after I mashed in, but I only did a 30 min mash. Beersmith gives you an estimated IBU output for mash hopping, so I assume the longer they are in there the more bitterness you would theoretically extract. I personally wouldn't worry about it.
2) I treated the mash hops as an add-on and hopped normally the rest of the way.

Thanks for the input man! Yeah, Im leaning towards using mash hops as an add-on as well. Not too worried about the additional IBUs. Don't know this for sure but can't imagine that the various software calculators can accurately predict IBUs from a mash, seen enough variability with IBUs from different calculators from the boil and WP as it is. Will prob use cascade in the mash and then Columbus/Cascade in the boil and WP. Used Columbus/Cascade hot side before with Juice and it worked out well and these hops seem that they are perfect for cosmic punch's abilities.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Not sure how many here have used Sundew Ale, but it is a beast! Pitched ~26hrs before this picture. Smells fantastic too. Love seeing healthy / vigorous fermentations, but damn! Ive lost a cup of wort! Hold this at 68 now to try to keep it from getting out of hand. Glad I started with the blow off first and will switch to the ball lock lid after this Krausen started to decrease lol.

 

[Dgallo]

For those mash hopping, Are you using whole cone?

Also how has this effected your mash Ph?

 

[Noob_Brewer]

For those mash hopping, Are you using whole cone?

Also how has this effected your mash Ph?

Im planning on using pellets for this. I haven't done this myself but pH was in the back of my head as well. Since I do 90 minute mashes, Im thinking of putting the hops in 30minutes after dough in. Im typically checking pH regularly during the mash too so I'll have a good idea on the effect of mash hops on mash pH if I add them 30 minutes in and have a pH measurement or two before and also after adding the mash hops.

EDIT: Just not sure if the presence of the hops at dough in would help with the "unbinding" of thiols from the barley BEFORE most of the conversion happens.

 

[Dwaynehaze]

For those who have used cosmic punch and mash hopping, trying to find any literature other than what Omega has put out to determine some things. 1) if mash hopping, do all mash hops go into the mash at dough in? I do 90minute mashes so just wondering when to put them into the mash as I haven't seen anything speaking to this. 2) When mash hopping are y'all reducing the amount of hops in the boil or whirlpool or both OR just calling the mash hops an "added" hot side hop.

I did 6 oz of cascade pellets in the mash which was about 22ish ibu calculator from brewfather. Did a smaller whirlpool then I usually do of just 2 ozs of citra.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I did 6 oz of cascade pellets in the mash which was about 22ish ibu calculator from brewfather. Did a smaller whirlpool then I usually do of just 2 ozs of citra.

Where is this beer at in process? You tap it yet or still fermenting?

 

[Dwaynehaze]

For those mash hopping, Are you using whole cone?

Also how has this effected your mash Ph?

Used cascade pellets from ych my knockout ph was higher than it usually is after a 4 to 5 oz wp only but I sadly didn't measuren directly after the mash

 

[Dwaynehaze]

Where is this beer at in process? You tap it yet or still fermenting?

Just pitched about 3 hours ago. Keep yall updated for sure

 

[couchsending]

For those mash hopping, Are you using whole cone?

Also how has this effected your mash Ph?

Haven’t tried this yet, but based on what I’ve measured when it comes to the hops creating pH shift when whirlpooling, even 6oz of pellets doesn’t seem to have that big of an effect on pH in the whirlpool.

Leaf hops on the other hand do seem to create a bigger shift in pH, at least in the WP or hopback.

 

[Dgallo]

Haven’t tried this yet, but based on what I’ve measured when it comes to the hops creating pH shift when whirlpooling, even 6oz of pellets doesn’t seem to have that big of an effect on pH in the whirlpool.

Leaf hops on the other hand do seem to create a bigger shift in pH, at least in the WP or hopback.

My thought was a maximum shift of .2 but just very interested to see if anyone measured the difference.

 

[Dgallo]

Im planning on using pellets for this. I haven't done this myself but pH was in the back of my head as well. Since I do 90 minute mashes, Im thinking of putting the hops in 30minutes after dough in. Im typically checking pH regularly during the mash too so I'll have a good idea on the effect of mash hops on mash pH if I add them 30 minutes in and have a pH measurement or two before and also after adding the mash hops.

EDIT: Just not sure if the presence of the hops at dough in would help with the "unbinding" of thiols from the barley BEFORE most of the conversion happens.

Keep me posted. I’m growing hops this year and my Columbus are at least 2 weeks in front of my cascade and probably another 3-4 weeks ahead of the cashmere, so I won’t be able to do a wet hop beer with all three (hoping still for one with Columbus/cascade). Figured I’d give mash hoping a try when I get around to this yeast.

Def going to be a good yield for 1st year hops. These are the Columbus

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Keep me posted. I’m growing hops this year and my Columbus are at least 2 weeks in front of my cascade and probably another 3-4 weeks ahead of the cashmere, so I won’t be able to do a wet hop beer with all three (hoping still for one with Columbus/cascade).

Sounds ideal spacing to me - allows some to go in on brewday, and then a different variety dry-hopped at the end of fermentation.

Don't forget the water content of green hops means you need 6-7x the weight compared to dried hops.

 

[kingmatt]

My mash pH was only slightly higher than normal, but still within my acceptable range, with the mash hopping. I used pellets and I did run into some sparging issues, so I had to add some rice hulls to get things going.

 

[Dgallo]

Sounds ideal spacing to me - allows some to go in on brewday, and then a different variety dry-hopped at the end of fermentation.

Don't forget the water content of green hops means you need 6-7x the weight compared to dried hops.

That’s true. I didn’t think about hoping that way but it would work perfectly.

I’ve been seeing a lot of folks saying around 5 oz wet hops = 1 oz dried whole cones. I’m most likely going to stay in that range as my recipe will need about 2 lbs at that rate... not sure I’ll even yield that much but I’m hopeful

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I’ve been seeing a lot of folks saying around 5 oz wet hops = 1 oz dried whole cones.

US sources seem to generally say 5x or 6x, but talking to brewers in Kent, 7x seems to be the standard. Dunno if that's just being more generous with English varieties, or US terroir leading to lower water content.

In reality - use what you've got. Just make sure they're fresh, picked on the day - they go off incredibly quickly, after 24 hours they're no good. In Kent the brewers will typically put the boil on, then go to the farm to pick up hops whilst the water is heating up.

At least the Canterbury Food festival in late September is back on this year - the traditional focal point for green hop beers in East Kent and probably my favourite beer festival. 40+ cask-conditioned beers on gravity, all green hop from pales to stouts and saisons, mostly EKG but with a few other varieties depending on how early the harvest is, overlooked by the remains of a Norman (late 11th century) castle - can't beat it.

 

[ihavenonickname]

I’ve done a couple dozen hop combinations for these beers and spent a lot of time trying to find some secret hop combination that would be top notch while saving some money. I’ve tried mixing in cascade centennial bravo comet even Amarillo and Columbus. Lots of great results but they don’t quite match the superstar hops like citra mosaic galaxy Nelson and I’ll even throw strata and Vic secret in this elite category.
So lately I’ve been going back to just using the obvious choices and results have been great. Latest effort was mosaic and galaxy and big surprise it was effing phenomenal!

Did I miss any? Would you put anything else in that top tier “cheater hop” category?

 

[Dgallo]

I’ve done a couple dozen hop combinations for these beers and spent a lot of time trying to find some secret hop combination that would be top notch while saving some money. I’ve tried mixing in cascade centennial bravo comet even Amarillo and Columbus. Lots of great results but they don’t quite match the superstar hops like citra mosaic galaxy Nelson and I’ll even throw strata and Vic secret in this elite category.
So lately I’ve been going back to just using the obvious choices and results have been great. Latest effort was mosaic and galaxy and big surprise it was effing phenomenal!

Did I miss any? Would you put anything else in that top tier “cheater hop” category?

Riwaka, Sabro, enigma (when paired well...its potent as hell), rakau, simcoe, Idaho 7, Strata.

That said I think combos really matter. I’m really big in trying to pair hops that will complement each other. I use Citra the most but love to layer beers with Columbus and cascade all the time

 

[ihavenonickname]

Alright I’m with you simcoe and I7 are great but would you really put it on the highest tier?

Here’s my updated but subject to change ELITE tier:
Citra mosaic galaxy nelson strata

It’s just not fair how good these hops are.

Edit: changed my mind