New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Loud Brewing]

Speaking of soft crash I'm curious, what is the consensus here regarding using floc in neipas?
One advantage from my experience is the ability to skip the soft crash when using clarifiers like whirlfloc due to the fact that that once the fermentation activity subsides, the trub settles out at ferm temps without having to chill and then allow to return to room temp before postferm dryhopping.
Another advantage it seems is the increased stability/shelf life, however the beer might lose that opaque murky look many are looking for.
Thoughts?
Also, anyone experimented with ascorbic acid in neipa to extend shelf/package life?

 

[Eltes]

Speaking of soft crash I'm curious, what is the consensus here regarding using floc in neipas?
One advantage from my experience is the ability to skip the soft crash when using clarifiers like whirlfloc due to the fact that that once the fermentation activity subsides, the trub settles out at ferm temps without having to chill and then allow to return to room temp before postferm dryhopping.
Another advantage it seems is the increased stability/shelf life, however the beer might lose that opaque murky look many are looking for.
Thoughts?
Also, anyone experimented with ascorbic acid in neipa to extend shelf/package life?

I'm not sure what the concensus is, since it hasn't been discussed much, but I use Irish moss in all my NEIPAs. I believe the stuff that clarifiers are meant to remove is undesirable in all beers. As has been discussed at length in many threads, the haze is not a goal, it's a byproduct of the extreme hopping rates used to maximize hop flavor and aroma.

Regarding ascorbic acid I haven't used it myself, but it's maybe be helpful depending on what your process looks like. It seems to me that optimizing your process to avoid oxygeb has by far the biggest impact on NEIPA shelf life, and with a solid brewing and packaging process they can hold up for several months without the need for antioxidants like ascorbic acid. That being said, if you are at the limit of your process, ascorbic acid could maybe be used to push it a little bit further, but it won't replace oxygen reduction in the processing and handling.

 

[couchsending]

Speaking of soft crash I'm curious, what is the consensus here regarding using floc in neipas?
One advantage from my experience is the ability to skip the soft crash when using clarifiers like whirlfloc due to the fact that that once the fermentation activity subsides, the trub settles out at ferm temps without having to chill and then allow to return to room temp before postferm dryhopping.
Another advantage it seems is the increased stability/shelf life, however the beer might lose that opaque murky look many are looking for.
Thoughts?
Also, anyone experimented with ascorbic acid in neipa to extend shelf/package life?

Soft crashing is to settle yeast. Kettle finings are to keep unwanted proteins and all sorts of beer degrading particulate out of the fermenter.

Always kettle finings, for all beers. At least in my book.

 

[aaronm13]

Soft crashing is to settle yeast. Kettle finings are to keep unwanted proteins and all sorts of beer degrading particulate out of the fermenter.

Always kettle finings, for all beers. At least in my book.

Do you find the haze of the beer is not effected by using a whirlfloc? I've never used finings on this style of beer. Another thing to ponder.

About pitch rates. At our BrewCon in October there was a speaker from a yeast manufacture company and he said to always underpitch by around 25%. I tried this on my last brew and the beer still finished at the specified FG. IS 25% of an underpitch a good benchmark to work off or is it all down to the yeast strain and fermentation schedule?

Say a yeast calculator calls for 200 billion cells, would a pitch of around 150 billion be suitable?

 

[isomerization]

Do you find the haze of the beer is not effected by using a whirlfloc? I've never used finings on this style of beer. Another thing to ponder.

About pitch rates. At our BrewCon in October there was a speaker from a yeast manufacture company and he said to always underpitch by around 25%. I tried this on my last brew and the beer still finished at the specified FG. IS 25% of an underpitch a good benchmark to work off or is it all down to the yeast strain and fermentation schedule?

Say a yeast calculator calls for 200 billion cells, would a pitch of around 150 billion be suitable?

I have not had any issues with haze stability using finings, it’s not like ALL protein content is removed by them.

Here’s my latest NE IPA (forgive poor lighting), used whirlfloc in the boil:

Yeast calculators are nowhere near precise enough to accurately give you that info. You’d want to visually count cells before trying to reproducibly underpitch.

 

[aaronm13]

I have not had any issues with haze stability using finings, it’s not like ALL protein content is removed by them.

Here’s my latest NE IPA (forgive poor lighting), used whirlfloc in the boil:

View attachment 657203

Yeast calculators are nowhere near precise enough to accurately give you that info. You’d want to visually count cells before trying to reproducibly underpitch.

That looks great, think I'll start using whirlfloc tablets from now on.

I do understand that calculators are a big guess at best but it's what the majority of people have to go off. Lots of other elements come into play. I'm definitely not going down the microscope route.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I finally made it up to Sapwood Cellars to try their stuff over the weekend. Some really solid beers there. Unfortunately I had a long drive home so I couldn't try everything but I tried a lot.

Interestingly, Pillowfort was probably my least favorite beer I had there despite it being one of their most popular. Also interestingly, the beer I had was quite clear which is very different from the picture on their website of Pillowfort. Also, if you look through Untappd pictures the recent ones are pretty clear like mine was but the further back you scroll the hazier it gets.

 

[isomerization]

That looks great, think I'll start using whirlfloc tablets from now on.

I do understand that calculators are a big guess at best but it's what the majority of people have to go off. Lots of other elements come into play. I'm definitely not going down the microscope route.

Thanks! This thread has been super helpful for refining/updating my NE IPA processes.

I understand what you’re saying and it sounds like you’re willing to experiment. To me at least, I’d have a low expectation of reproducible outcomes from batch to batch (in the absence of counting). Side-by-side fermentation experiments would be most impactful, as you could assure yourself that you were actually pitching 25% less in one of the fermentations and compare from there.

 

[Loud Brewing]

Soft crashing is to settle yeast. Kettle finings are to keep unwanted proteins and all sorts of beer degrading particulate out of the fermenter.

Always kettle finings, for all beers. At least in my book.

I understand that you will still have some yeast in solution and a soft crash is better, but in practice it seems to support the fact that a large portion of the yeast floccs out with the proteins also. You can actually see the yeast/protein layers.
Another advantage I have found using it is a more compact bed in the fermenter post hard crash which makes closed transfers much easier.

 

[BeerFst]

About 10 days after movement - bith kegs have top draw CBDS sytems

"Clear beer" draft system right. Its in the name.
I have normal bottom drawing kegs. I like to get whatever settles out.

yup, that’s what I was getting at, that one of you was using top draw and the other Maybe wasn’t. Might make sense to push to a “normal” keg before a big move. I use cbds since I do my dry hops in serving kegs so something to keep an eye on for sure

 

[anteater8]

I'm drinking maybe my 15th or 20th iteration of this recipe right now and its particularly good. It's the standard Braufessor recipe with more oats, crystal 15 instead of honey malt, and little tweak on the hops. The aroma is pineapple, mango, passion fruit and papaya. The flavor is more of the same but with a bit of peach and a concentrated passion fruit flavor. I don't usually use amarillo in this recipe, but I feel that it smooths things out and adds a bit of a peachy, floral quality.

6.25 lb 2 row
6.25 lb Golden Promise
3 lb Flaked Oats
0.75 lb Wheat
0.3 lb Crystal 15

0.7 oz Warrior 60 min
3 oz Citra whirlpool (30 min 170 degrees)
3 oz Mosaic whirlpool (30 min 170 degrees)
3.9 oz Citra dry hop
3.1 oz Amarillo dry hop
1 oz Galaxy dry hop

Imperial Juice

 

[SRJHops]

Anybody know what dip hopping is? Fair State/3 Floyds released a hazy that was dip hopped. Seems to be a Japanese technique....

 

[Loud Brewing]

Anybody know what dip hopping is? Fair State/3 Floyds released a hazy that was dip hopped. Seems to be a Japanese technique....

Looks like it is a "proprietary" hopping technique from Kirin Japan done in the fermenter at lower temperatures.They even commercially offer a "Dip Hopped" IPL. Perhaps dipping refers to a bag being used to dip the hops in the wort, unfortunately that part is not made clear.

 

[isomerization]

Anybody know what dip hopping is? Fair State/3 Floyds released a hazy that was dip hopped. Seems to be a Japanese technique....

http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...is a Stone Enjoy By IPA - Stan Hieronymus.pdf

Slide 33, sounds like dry hopping during fermentation?

Another post:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Bi...oic-hop-specialist-helps-brewer-craft-success

“Murakami's proprietary Dip Hop process comes in handy. The key is delaying the addition of the hops until the sweet wort has sufficiently cooled. The lack of boiling reduces bitterness while keeping the aroma intact.”

Finally (page 6):
https://www.kirin.co.jp/company/rd/common/pdf/kirin_rd_e.pdf

 

[dogjam]

First NEIPA using the techniques here (malt bill and techniques below). It looks pretty close to what I was aiming for (IMHO), but definitely lacks the huge hop aroma and flavors of some of my other NEIPAs, and I'm trying to figure out why: suboptimal yeast (London Ale III, no starter), suboptimal hop selection (including Southern Dawn instead of Citra/Mosaic only), using an inline filter (may have filtered out some delicious hop compounds?), or dryhopping exclusively at cold temps (60 degrees)? Anyone else have issues with lack of big hop aroma/flavor with the cold dry-hopping and/or inline filter?

For my next one, I think I'll give the soft crash/cold temp-only dryhopping another try, but use a yeast starter and skip the inline filter.

6# Rahr 2-row
6# Golden Promise
1# Flaked Wheat
1# Flaked Oats
1oz. CTZ@60'
2oz each Citra/Mosaic/Southern Dawn in whirlpool, 20' 180->170
London Ale III, slow to start fermentation
70-72 x 3 days, down to 60 at 1.025, pulled trub 12h later and dry hopped with 1oz. each of C/M/SD x 24h, then pulled trub
70-72 x 2 days, then crashed to 58, dry hopped with 1oz. of C/M/SD x 2d, then crashed to 40 x 1d, kegged with inline filter

 

[murphyslaw]

I finally made it up to Sapwood Cellars to try their stuff over the weekend. Some really solid beers there. Unfortunately I had a long drive home so I couldn't try everything but I tried a lot.

Interestingly, Pillowfort was probably my least favorite beer I had there despite it being one of their most popular. Also interestingly, the beer I had was quite clear which is very different from the picture on their website of Pillowfort. Also, if you look through Untappd pictures the recent ones are pretty clear like mine was but the further back you scroll the hazier it gets.

I went for the first time the day before Thanksgiving. I had the same thoughts about pillowfort and the clarity. I thought findle bindle was very good.

 

[SRJHops]

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/pdf/2013/1715-10 ...Not Every Beer is a Stone Enjoy By IPA - Stan Hieronymus.pdf

Slide 33, sounds like dry hopping during fermentation?

Another post:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Bi...oic-hop-specialist-helps-brewer-craft-success

“Murakami's proprietary Dip Hop process comes in handy. The key is delaying the addition of the hops until the sweet wort has sufficiently cooled. The lack of boiling reduces bitterness while keeping the aroma intact.”

Finally (page 6):
https://www.kirin.co.jp/company/rd/common/pdf/kirin_rd_e.pdf

My guess? Bagging some hops, dropping them into the fermenter, adding the wort, steeping a bit, removing the bag, pitching. Or maybe removing the bag later...

 

[Dgallo]

First NEIPA using the techniques here (malt bill and techniques below). It looks pretty close to what I was aiming for (IMHO), but definitely lacks the huge hop aroma and flavors of some of my other NEIPAs, and I'm trying to figure out why: suboptimal yeast (London Ale III, no starter), suboptimal hop selection (including Southern Dawn instead of Citra/Mosaic only), using an inline filter (may have filtered out some delicious hop compounds?), or dryhopping exclusively at cold temps (60 degrees)? Anyone else have issues with lack of big hop aroma/flavor with the cold dry-hopping and/or inline filter?

For my next one, I think I'll give the soft crash/cold temp-only dryhopping another try, but use a yeast starter and skip the inline filter.

6# Rahr 2-row
6# Golden Promise
1# Flaked Wheat
1# Flaked Oats
1oz. CTZ@60'
2oz each Citra/Mosaic/Southern Dawn in whirlpool, 20' 180->170
London Ale III, slow to start fermentation
70-72 x 3 days, down to 60 at 1.025, pulled trub 12h later and dry hopped with 1oz. each of C/M/SD x 24h, then pulled trub
70-72 x 2 days, then crashed to 58, dry hopped with 1oz. of C/M/SD x 2d, then crashed to 40 x 1d, kegged with inline filter

I just want to make sure I’m understanding your ferm schedule correct. You ferment 3 days at 70-72 and then drop it to 60 was on the 4th day and then drop your trub?

 

[jjw5015]

Anybody know what dip hopping is? Fair State/3 Floyds released a hazy that was dip hopped. Seems to be a Japanese technique....

Probably more like...damn autocorrect. **** it let's make up a new technique.

 

[dogjam]

I just want to make sure I’m understanding your ferm schedule correct. You ferment 3 days at 70-72 and then drop it to 60 was on the 4th day and then drop your trub?

Yes, that's right--I was under the impression that the soft crash was to drop some yeast out, so pulled trub after the soft crash. I was also under the impression that leaving the beer on the hops for >48h would cause extraction of more piney/woodsy/etc. flavors/compounds, and so tried to keep the dry hop exposure limited to 24-48h. I think I saw somewhere in this thread that the majority of extraction of the "good" (citrus, fruity) hop compounds are extracted after 24h, regardless of temperature. Am I mistaken? Maybe I should have left the hops in for the duration (which is what I used to do, and I think I got bigger aroma and flavor that way).

 

[aaronm13]

Yes, that's right--I was under the impression that the soft crash was to drop some yeast out, so pulled trub after the soft crash. I was also under the impression that leaving the beer on the hops for >48h would cause extraction of more piney/woodsy/etc. flavors/compounds, and so tried to keep the dry hop exposure limited to 24-48h. I think I saw somewhere in this thread that the majority of extraction of the "good" (citrus, fruity) hop compounds are extracted after 24h, regardless of temperature. Am I mistaken? Maybe I should have left the hops in for the duration (which is what I used to do, and I think I got bigger aroma and flavor that way).

Initial fermentation temperature seems high to me. I would usually ferment around 64/65 then after the very active fermentation start to raise the temperature slowly to 70 to make sure the yeast finishes up. Usually do 72 hours minimum contact time per dry hop addition, sometimes a day or so longer if life gets in the way.

 

[Dgallo]

Yes, that's right--I was under the impression that the soft crash was to drop some yeast out, so pulled trub after the soft crash. I was also under the impression that leaving the beer on the hops for >48h would cause extraction of more piney/woodsy/etc. flavors/compounds, and so tried to keep the dry hop exposure limited to 24-48h. I think I saw somewhere in this thread that the majority of extraction of the "good" (citrus, fruity) hop compounds are extracted after 24h, regardless of temperature. Am I mistaken? Maybe I should have left the hops in for the duration (which is what I used to do, and I think I got bigger aroma and flavor that way).

You have the idea of soft crashing correct but your ferm time is extremely short. Though LAIII tries to climb out of the fermenter, it’s been my experience that it takes a full 5-7 days to fully attenuate and should be held at 70-72 for 48 hours after maintaining fg to be sure it cleans up any vdk, acetaldehyde, and/or other none desirable by products. So I personally do not crash until the earliest day 7.

I also think 1.025 is pretty high for a typical NEIPA. Even if I mash at 155 I’ll end up somewhere around 1.017 with LAIII

 

[Dgallo]

Initial fermentation temperature seems high to me. I would usually ferment around 64/65 then after the very active fermentation start to raise the temperature slowly to 70 to make sure the yeast finishes up. Usually do 72 hours minimum contact time per dry hop addition, sometimes a day or so longer if life gets in the way.

There are multiple views on starting yeast temp. If you have temp control starting at 70-72 is fine for LAIII and most ale yeast.

 

[Loud Brewing]

it’s been my experience that it takes a full 5-7 days to fully attenuate and should be held at 70-72 for 48 hours after maintaining fg to be sure it cleans up any vdk, acetaldehyde, and/or other none desirable by products. So I personally do not crash until the earliest day 7.

Same here. Its always dicey when rushing a beer due to precursors. If you are in a rush to package, do a quick forced test and see what it tastes and smells like.
My schedule is typically 66-68f pitch temp, raise to 72f over the last couple days to clean up and then on day 7-10 pull a sample, throw it on the heated stir plate (or microwave) and have a couple people take a sip/smell.
Another option for quick turnaround is Kveik, as it attenuates so fast and throws little to no off flavors imo.

 

[dogjam]

Thanks for all the info and feedback; this forum is such a great resource. Just for the record, I soft crashed to 60 at around 1.023-1.025 but fermentation keep going, beer finished around 1.015. After fermentation was complete, I still warmed back up for a couple of days to release any diacetyl/precursors from the end of fermentation and from "hop creep." Still ended up with a bit of diacetyl unfortunately.

So to be clear, you guys aren't doing any dry-hopping for several days, until fermentation is complete? I know this is a topic of some debate and there are "believers" and "non-believers" in the importance of a biotransformation dry-hop during active fermentation.

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks for all the info and feedback; this forum is such a great resource. Just for the record, I soft crashed to 60 at around 1.023-1.025 but fermentation keep going, beer finished around 1.015. After fermentation was complete, I still warmed back up for a couple of days to release any diacetyl/precursors from the end of fermentation and from "hop creep." Still ended up with a bit of diacetyl unfortunately.

So to be clear, you guys aren't doing any dry-hopping for several days, until fermentation is complete? I know this is a topic of some debate and there are "believers" and "non-believers" in the importance of a biotransformation dry-hop during active fermentation.

I believe that bio transformation occurs but I don’t personally believe it makes my beers anymore flavorful, It does add some complexity but for me that’s not worth it. But yes I don’t dryhop til day 8/9. I wait for fermentation to be complete for at least 2 days and then crash

 

[stickyfinger]

i’m wondering if using certain hop varieties in a dry hop with the yeast and warm temps makes a difference in flavor. I prefer the flavor of beers I’ve made using Mosaic when I’ve added them during fermentation as opposed to after a soft crash. Galaxy tastes good to me after a soft crash.

 

[MrPowers]

I believe that bio transformation occurs but I don’t personally believe it makes my beers anymore flavorful, It does add some complexity but for me that’s not worth it. But yes I don’t dryhop til day 8/9. I wait for fermentation to be complete for at least 2 days and then crash

I’m using a similar process. Ferment beer out completely (no dry hops added during fermentation). Usually day 5-7 the beer is at terminal gravity. Then I soft crash to 58 for 24-48 hours with the headspace under pressure to prevent oxygen intake. Then I harvest/dump yeast and trub. Then add dry hops, re-purge the headspace with CO2, and let it sit for 3-4 days on dry hops. Then crash under pressure, keg, and force carb.

I’ve had better luck getting a defined hop aroma by using this method and avoiding the biotransformation hops.

 

[SRJHops]

Thanks for all the info and feedback; this forum is such a great resource. Just for the record, I soft crashed to 60 at around 1.023-1.025 but fermentation keep going, beer finished around 1.015. After fermentation was complete, I still warmed back up for a couple of days to release any diacetyl/precursors from the end of fermentation and from "hop creep." Still ended up with a bit of diacetyl unfortunately.

So to be clear, you guys aren't doing any dry-hopping for several days, until fermentation is complete? I know this is a topic of some debate and there are "believers" and "non-believers" in the importance of a biotransformation dry-hop during active fermentation.

As Dgallo noted, I think there is consensus that some hops biotransform during fermentation (with some yeasts) and create some new (desirable) flavors. The question is how much of those new flavors drop out when the remaining yeast floccs out...

I skipped the biotrans addition on my last beer, and I seemed to get less aroma and flavor. Now, there could be other reasons for that... But my current belief is that a small hop charge on Day 2 or 3 is still a good idea (when using certain hops such as Citra), but that most of the dry hops should be added after fermentation is complete.

My beers are hazier when I dry hop during active. Not that haze is the goal, but it seems like perhaps it means more hop flavor may be in suspension too...

As Janish and others have speculated, adding multiple dry hops in smaller doses could maximize the aroma/flavor. Of course, you have to be confident you are not oxidizing the beer each time...

 

[aaronm13]

Planning my next attempt at this beer, was all set on Citra, Mosaic and Galaxy but I'm just after getting a pound of Strata from Yakima and am dying to try this hop out. What would be a good hop to use with Strata and what ratios? I got some 2019 Citra which I'm sure would go great with it. Also have a good bit of Mosaic too. I got Medusa with this order but I'm thinking 2 dank hops (going by the descriptions) might be a bit much.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Planning my next attempt at this beer, was all set on Citra, Mosaic and Galaxy but I'm just after getting a pound of Strata from Yakima and am dying to try this hop out. What would be a good hop to use with Strata and what ratios? I got some 2019 Citra which I'm sure would go great with it. Also have a good bit of Mosaic too. I got Medusa with this order but I'm thinking 2 dank hops (going by the descriptions) might be a bit much.

Are you referring to Medusa as dank? I thought Medusa was all fruit, at least as far as I remember YVH describing it. I bought 4 oz in my last order and am going to make a single hop pale with it but have never used it before.

 

[aaronm13]

Are you referring to Medusa as dank? I thought Medusa was all fruit, at least as far as I remember YVH describing it. I bought 4 oz in my last order and am going to make a single hop pale with it but have never used it before.

I'm just going off what Brulosphy had in their hop chronicle, never used it myself yet.

 

[Dgallo]

Are you referring to Medusa as dank? I thought Medusa was all fruit, at least as far as I remember YVH describing it. I bought 4 oz in my last order and am going to make a single hop pale with it but have never used it before.

I got peach and some of that neomex earth notes in last year’s crop. I heard this years crop was much peach and stone fruit forward

 

[aaronm13]

I might use it so with Strata and Citra. Could work really well.

 

[jturman35]

[/QUOTE]
As Janish and others have speculated, adding multiple dry hops in smaller doses could maximize the aroma/flavor. Of course, you have to be confident you are not oxidizing the beer each time...[/QUOTE]

I have only brewed about 1/2 dozen NEIPA’s but did 3 dry hops additions, 2oz each of Citra on day 2, day 10, and then keg hops. Best NEIPA I’ve ever brewed.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

As Janish and others have speculated, adding multiple dry hops in smaller doses could maximize the aroma/flavor. Of course, you have to be confident you are not oxidizing the beer each time...[/QUOTE]

I have only brewed about 1/2 dozen NEIPA’s but did 3 dry hops additions, 2oz each of Citra on day 2, day 10, and then keg hops. Best NEIPA I’ve ever brewed.

View attachment 657899[/QUOTE]
Although the picture is fuzzy that a beautiful color @jturman35. You mind sharing your grain bill?

EDIT: Thats also a bad ass fireplace you got there man!

 

[jturman35]

Thanks we just had the fireplace done and love it. Beer recipe courtesy of Braufessor. I have made this my go to grain bill for any future NEIPAS. I want to try Simcoe, Sabro, Motueka but having a hard time with a hop schedule.

6.5lb Maris Otter
6.5lb 2 Row
12oz flake oats
12oz flaked wheat
5oz Honey malt
Imperial Juice yeast


3oz Citra at Flameout
3oz Citra Whirlpool (180-150, @ 20- 30 mins)

2oz Citra Dry Hop (day 2-3)
2oz Citra Dry Hop (day 7-10)
2oz Citra keg hop

mash 154

 

[Dgallo]

Hey NYS guys, pretty seriously big news for us but still big news for all NEIPA lovers. Trillium is in trial distribution with Remarkable Liquids, If all goes well it may become a frequent occurrence!

 

[pshankstar]

Hey NYS guys, pretty seriously big news for us but still big news for all NEIPA lovers. Trillium is in trial distribution with Remarkable Liquids, If all goes well it may become a frequent occurrence!

That’s great news! I’m not sure if they distribute out to Western NY or not but hopefully they do or do soon.

 

[Sbe2]

I’ll be alright with Other Half being a little under an hour away. Loving the silky Chromas they came out with this past week.